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Which Angel is your favourite?
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Angel has many faces. Which is your favourite?
 34%  [ 11 ]
 15%  [ 5 ]
Love them both!
 50%  [ 16 ]
Neither - Liam is mine.
 0%  [ 0 ]
Don't Know
 0%  [ 0 ]
Total Votes : 32

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Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 877

PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just love every world that you said, MARYZg. I truly and with such great relief DO! that SOMEONE understands WHY I see the “stuckness” of Angel re the love Buffy actually gave him: IT WAS HIMSELF! Yet “magically” he can’t allow himself to comprehend his for her; that his is an equally pure and true love that comes from himself, is therefore worthy, and thus, mirrors hers. I love how you especially dealt with loss and how their moments lived, treasured and lost make them precious, make life itself worthy.

While most probably enjoy Angel’s vengeance upon those who have tormented him, I don't; I think the lost point here is that Angel coming into himself was actually lost. He became an expression of power fighting powers he never had to believe in in the first place. You said it. The gift was never to be conferred by TPB. HE GAVE IT, even as it was given him!

Angel had the true meaning AND reality of Buffy given to him from the beginning: HIMSELF.

Angel argued with powers on the battlefield of power, not the battlefield of the independent soul. That is why the quagmire of the “same family” and the “same” relationships keep being repeated and FAIL. BOTH failed in not choosing the other. The solution of the curse is ALWAYS within it—if the writers know anything about them and these writers do. Further, this failure to see (know what to see) is the tragedy that gives us “ a journey” and is indeed as Angel said. If I were blind, I would find you.

Buffy and Angel both had the “end game’ in the beginning. They just heroically struggle to rediscover what they already knew at first sight and Buffy even said it: The light dims and the world goes away, as they gaze upon the other; they are neither present and yet are most present. This whole heroic journey is to finally lose ego and become nothing (that is everything): love.

Maybe some fans think that Buffy’s true love is “HUMANITY.” (Just as some can’t differentiate the self from the land or their god). I don’t think so, or the writers wouldn’t have made a point that she is also demonic (“daemon” = SPIRIT), not just a soul imprisoned with the flaws of the flesh that require death to live.

I just never saw all this great “growth” of Angel on ATS. By Angel insisting these powers need to be overthrown is exactly their battlefield of KEEPING him. Anne was dragged over to ATS for a reason. She had it right. It doesn’t MATTER if there is a god, if there is Wolfram and Hart, if there is the end of the world. Anne had HERSELF. She didn’t have anything, even her own name! (Sound familiar?) But, she challenged suffering, (to heal herself), not the guys “causing it.” How often is it told: My guys are the good guys and your guys are the bad guys” because I got GOD on my side and you got EEEVVVIL, INC.” BOTH sides say that, while civilians get creamed and flee for their lives all over the world. Those powers come and go, but people suffer everyday.

Anne also expressed herself in the world: She didn’t need to win anything or anything more. She would keep “loading the truck”—THAT was what Angel’s epiphany was all about and that was pure BUFFY; and Angel never found HER thereafter. THAT is what so many are cheering in NFA. I freaking HATED IT. He found “Buffy”/himself in ATF—absolutely SHOWN in the embrace of HIMSELF (ConnoR) in a baptism of tears and joy.

Then comes Season 8 in “twilight” plane. Angel was RIGHT. BUFFY claimed “them” as herself. She is right, in that they all are RELFECTIONS of her, but she chose WRONG as Angel IS her. And she him. This is a metaphysical reality carefully constructed and balanced between them. Or what was shown to be true in the beginning wouldn’t be the point of the journey in the end. The tragedy is that both are NOT grasping THE TRUTH OF THEMSELVES AS GONE AND PRESENT IN TRUE LOVE, for all the wrong “distractions” of sex, of power, of duty: DHARMA we call “seasons.” And frankly, nobody on earth for real could be this stupid when they show it. Over and again. It’s just the cost is the illusion and is where angels fear to tread: why it takes a soul seeing itself.

I actually tire of most people cheering that which is simply the wrong thing for this story and these two in it. Why am I so sure? I saw it from the beginning when Buffy and Angel both saw the other, lost in the other, found in the other; and is shown over and over: both the point is forever (and that is reality, defined by math/science) and the mystery that binds them in loving the other’s flaws. That is the promise!

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Joined: 05 May 2011
Posts: 57
Location: Hrvatska

PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil, glad to hear you liked my views Smile

I don't see him grow either. I've seen snippets of growth in the Darla episodes in AtS, or in the final season. I believe that his story would have been served much better if it was contained in BtVS and played out within the framework of their love.
I've seen it written many times that in BtVS Angel wasn't himself, as if he was somehow tampered down by the presence of the strong female lead character. At this point of my life, it's mainly intruiging to me to see this view elaborated, but there were times when this pissed me off seriously, and for (I hope) obvious reasons.
I just never saw them that way, which prehaps only shows how maladjusted I am in this world.

For me, all those horror themes the show/s dealt with, all those demons and vamps and gods they fought, together and separately, they're all just the background for this: a love story that, despite all the ugliness, wins the day. They've complemented each other since the very beginning, and they should finally meet on that middle ground, between the Light and the Dark they supposedly/apparently represent.
I don't see this middle as the dreaded "many shades of gray" (which is only an understated way to say that there's nothing pure out there) but quite literally, as the birth place of *all the colors of life* (to abuse the metaphor fully by reclaiming the scientific fact of its origins: colors are all between the brightness of the Light/white and the absence of the color, i.e. black/Dark).
True heroes dwell here: in this in-between of colorful existence. They never reach the final solution to their fates, nothing is granted them, no Powers from above can resolve their sins for them, no Heaven will heal their wounds.
And yet, they fight. "Fight is everyday..."

And I've seen you claim in many a thread that life is not just pain, a Joss point of life you are always careful to stomp on. This is what I mean with my "colors of existence". It's not only pain, never. Pain means nothing without its counterpart. Yet the truth of life isn't in the middle ground, or the exact middle between the opposites (or Hegel's synthesis to thesis and antithesis). It's in the fact that paradox isn't paradoxical at all. It's merely a perception. I hope you get what I'm babling about with this...
Many would call this middle ground "dirty", a region where the compromise is native, and where we only have lesser evils to hope for. I obviously (and maybe delusionaly) see it as a rainbow of colors of life, a source of pleasure because it's also a sourse of pain, a reason to live and die for, as *everything* really.

And B/A story is/was an opportunity to show this in a plotted way of genre fiction. Let's hope it doesn't get squandered.
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*Nodding head, sniffle, sniffle, waves flapping hands, gulping. blubber.* Um hum. Yup. That's so much of it, MaryZg! Thanks--i hope I am welcome to the full range of color in the "maladjusted" world you live in!

Be well
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