Blood Roses Community Forum Index

"It started with a girl..."


 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

so...season 7

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> General Show
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
ital_gal
Dark Avenger


Joined: 08 May 2010
Posts: 288

PostPosted: Thu May 31, 2012 2:31 pm    Post subject: so...season 7 Reply with quote

So I`ve been (re)watching it in reruns., happens to be on, I happen to be home, otherwise..... and kind of to my surprise I was kind of enjoying it at first (i mostly remember it sucking) and then the potentials showed up, and suddenly I can hardly bear to watch it.

I guess I`ve found the point where S7 started to go bad (for me anyway) and put me off. (or was it when Andrew became a part of the group, no matter, it all seems to happen at the same time)

So my question is -- were they just a bad plot idea, or is it just that this particular group of girls are the most annoying collection of whiners ever. How is it that I have no sympathy for them what so ever, and yet I kind of think I should, given their circumstances...

Could this have been done better? Could S7 have been better if the potentials never existed..
_________________
If nothing we do matters... , then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that's all there is. What we do.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 865

PostPosted: Fri Jun 01, 2012 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The whole of a season is such a big topic when the potential for it was actually wide open, especially after season sucks.

I am probably not the person to comment. Can you believe that people talke season 6 and 7 to death and then some and I actually missed hunks of it when it was aired and I haven’t even watched my discs start to finish? I have read so much on it and that, in conjunction with what I saw, it’s a kaleidoscope.

Bottom line. The upbeat promise of the “starting over” with Dawn and her scoobs was set up. Then they sabotaged Buffy as the counselor: the one girl in all the world who had the sympathy and experience to say: you are not crazy. Rule one: don’t go down into the basement—every horror movie peaches this. Rule two: No one gets into your house unless they stand in the sun without smoking, including cigarettes. Rule three: Don’t mix coffee and the full moon. Rule four: Cheerleading is not evil. Everything else I will handle. Any questions?

The promise of Spike and Faith was set and promised and died. (The bull whip is actually a mythical thingie re connections and the moon goddess, also the minotaur/maze which also gives them the 'heroic cycle of Hercules" to have adventures, which was badly botched in ATS for Angel--and it was all about a girl for Hercules, too--which is why the ending of Chosen given to Spike galls me).

Also! The potentials/slayers are part of the Orpheus myth, which is Xander and Spike is the 'shadow' to him, instead of the tanist to Angel. All for homosexual "jokes." (This is corrected in season Cool The notion of purity is actually in sex, both homosexual for the heterosexual set, and for women, who actually were wives, as "vestal vigins"--you have to know to be "reborn." And that is what Twilight's long, ascending journey shows.

The completely wobbly standard on uber vamps to reflect Buffy’s own sense of her own strength didn’t work.

The Bringers were human and possessed still didn’t deserve being murdered—a further rule break re “the law” of humans and the supernatural, not to mention that Buffy would sacrifice Dawn or any loved one and continue to live herself, negating everything positive and beautiful of the entire arc of 1-5, especially the review of lessons and gifts from those she loved in finding her way to the solution of her final gift and accomplishment.

Not to mention, the idea of being forced into slayerhood, is questionable, not to mention that only 'super powered people" deserve to live, have the power and make all the decisions. (Yes, it slams "powerful women", who share only the power with other powerful women, but also the notion of God, "the sky bully).

Throwing people out of their houses is not the “inclusive” victory that was shown in The Graduation of season 3: including the people to fight for their homes and right to exist.

Existential/nihilistic Buffy is not Buffy, who succeeded when all other slayers hadn’t due to her connections to family and humanity. (…what do you got? Me). Therefore the potentials who were supposed to be deep connections of the ya ya club turned out to be an “army of Buffy” because she was so isolated and so scared.

The fact they had different talents and personalities, are like the aspects of self that create conflict, which is why she had trouble with them having their own ideas and influence. The whining of the potentials is because Joss believes that all young are self absorbed and annoying. He loves annoying people as distraction/conflict, not to mention humor. And rue….(also a mythical character who ratted out Persephone in the consumption of seven pomegranate aka “resurrection” seeds). Is it any surprise that roaches that scurry everywhere and creep us out are these “clever kids/heroes” on Spike’s ship? I am beginning to think the old aunts on Angel and Faith right now are (annoying) little girls playing “dress up.”

The nature of the potentials is in myth re Persephone/Hecuba in roles re “the whore” and “fertility.” (The notion of the barley queen figures later into the beserker warriors/slayers under Xander’s watch, not to mention the myth in which Apollo tell Orpheus (oracle) to shut up, but the comics reversed this, of course—as are most of the mythic structures within the Odyssey e.g. “female roles” are made male “principle.”).

Angel/Apollo the funereal/Hades is actually the figure who abducted Persephone to the underworld and is Angel’s role—why he was so sleepy in his beige period with Darla; and why Willow had to be the one to report Buffy was dead and she was alive, as Willow is Hecuba. Therefore, all this stuff doesn’t fit Spike, “doing these things” e.g. the cuddle on the (* monk’s *) cot—also why all the wild hopes for Spuffy in some love making between he and Buffy could.not. happen. Even Joss said “after that” referring to season 6. Even Joss couldn’t see his heroine in coitus (her body penetrated and joined) to Spike’s spike. And the promise of “all about Buffy” was rather dashed in the continuation of “all about Spike. Don’t forget that Spike is the “girl” in all this. seriously.

Actual sex would mean Spike wasn’t “pure,” as sex is evil; and he had to be pure in body and soul to be worthy of being killed at the end. Behold the difference in B/A, joined in everyway possible as “pure” in being and in creation of timeless utter peace and paradise. (Yup…snerk).

Because Buffy never took back her own power from that rape the entire arc fails Buffy in order to make a monster “suitable” as the pure soul worthy of self sacrifice and Buffy actually killing someone with a smile on her face “to save the world.” Your hopes were dashed that Buffy could stand there demeaning her troops, even as Chloe hangs there like some ham, after so much terror she killed herself to escape it. Kennedy (!) orders cutting her down. The disrespect is galling. (Now, in season 5, we had watched Buffy so terrorized she crawled inside so deep it was lucky that Willow could go in and get her—where was everyone for this girl?

With just a bit of flinch, the next “return to power”—sarcasm—thing we see is Buffy actually jealous of Spike and a (skank?) pathetic, got me a guy kind of “no sense of her self or the danger she is in/addict (?) at the wedding. Why is Buffy remotely jealous and insecure? Angel may have had Buffy on a pedestal in his love, but Spike chose “that” after Buffy, to show her up, as if that girl was “up?” It was a dig and hurtful and sickening. It showed Spike actually again using that girl to hurt Buffy that she herself was being used—so Spike took back his power, not Buffy; and also that Buffy was nothing but the dirt to be swept under the rug. (You are beneath me refrained to the benefit of Spike, the guy who committed the crimes. And it was all turned into this empowerment via shame to go “noble” and get a soul. Actually, he figured out that the thing Angel had was a soul and he didn’t; he figured out he couldn’t feel the pain to do such a thing to Buffy. Vampire. Remember? All that chip was “behavioral breaks”—not emotional understanding. So that whole thing failed. Anyone ever try to behave your way out of a bad habit, without the emotional commitment to why you do it—guess why so many “die” ts fail and die?).

We know that Buffy was using Spike, she said so, and “the problem” of vampire/male Buffy beating up “female” Spike is that it was still a male beating up a female. Later, a male body is crawling over a female body as she turns away, says no and breaks down crying. And he did.not.stop. She threw him off. Nice, if you can do it, but that isn’t the “power” we really need to see Buffy take back. And a zillion of her to bolster her position does not feel like: no friends, no hope, no weapons; what’d you got” Me. Now does it?

And this is why “off screen” is actually “the story.” And why so much of Buffy has turned into “whatever you think” instead of “show me.” To me, that “intense” meeting with Angel ( and, of course, everything was the same with them: cursed) was the first time she jumped Spike’s bones.

Buffy does run away, but it is also to fight another day. This is really how much she wanted to die, she broke, she was the vampire and she was in hell. (season 6) Of course, her using him/picking on him, wanting to give up her power, but still actually in the control of the relationship of B/D, is now reprised with him “dominating” and her power stolen. She was supposed to fight for her life, but mixed up with rape, the metaphor is messed up since “sex games” and “power games” don’t work in the reversal of “female and male principles no longer done in vampire power roles. It’s simply a crime. And Buffy didn’t fight. She laid there and cried.

So, James face shows such horror and shock (he actually went to therapy for 2 years over this; he also has a daughter) the wrong conclusion for his vampire state and her human state is misunderstood. James made this “used” poor woobie Spike suffering, literally ripping flesh and burning alive for his guilt, but Buffy’s pain is hardened so she doesn’t even feel like much more than a zombie. Further, season 7 spent its time turning him into a pontificating saint.

And! He still is, so he mostly is for humor than anything worthwhile. A shadow of Angel is hard to do when a. Angel isn’t around, b.when Spike and Angel are supposed to be “opposites”/tanists or, at least, “rough brothers,” when c. Angel is being heroic in his own efforts/series and Spike stands around in statis/smoking as his “action” scene. Buffy simply does not choose him and it’s getting painful. Again, for Spike!

I am sick to death of disconnect Buffy, depressed Buffy, no matter how much they keep telling me she is not. The only smile that was alive in season 7 was that between Buffy and Angel. And! Need I point to the smiles and laughter between them for season 8?

Which is why I’m getting worn in the waiting, rather than wan in the gloaming.

I am not sure I could actually sit through these seasons. Season 6 felt boring, for the horror of what is taking place. When in doubt, end the episode with shirtless Spike. It was not that he actually was on screen, but the story really turned into the story of Spike's journey dominating that of Buffy's because she is indeed the shadow story, in the underworld of depression, "stuck" as is a vampire, etc. And season 7 got robbed right after Joss's first episode.

Edit: oh, yeah. Another off screen thing that was not shown was the union of Willow and Buffy in order to actually make those potentials into slayers. You may recall what that looks like with Willow and Saga, so that is why that very "homosexual" union was not shown, as "male and female principles" fitting in opposition to produce the magic for the "spark" to trigger these potentials through t(Buffy's sperm/Willow's womb) the womb of the world of magic had to "wait" for season 8 and still is not understood, other than here, and Dorotea can explain all this in plot points if you don't understand the cycles of myths/meanings.

again, the edit. The number eight is supposed to appear by season and not that emoticon. It is supposed to mean cool, but looks like "yeah, right" to me and I don't feel that way about all of that season.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 865

PostPosted: Sat Jun 02, 2012 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

so...you asked.

No secret I like people making sense of this stuff in different ways--even if I most likely jump over a lot of what Joss actually says because I simply don't agree with everything Joss says.

http://www.smartpopbooks.com/buffys-search-for-meaning/

I decided to erase what I think so you can think about this, as it seems to be the stuff Joss actually thinks he says.

Hugs!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kairos
Forum Gargoyle
Moderator


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think the problem had more to do with the characters they made up for the Potentials, and the actresses they chose to play them (aside from Felicia Day). The plot had potential, no pun intended for once. It really expanded the world, and we got to see more of Buffy's natural leadership.

But then, whining. And more whining. And teenagers. Whining.

Ugh, Season 7.
_________________
But there the silver answer rang: not Death, but Love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
MissIndecisive
Mortal


Joined: 04 Jun 2012
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree that the potentials were a huge part of why season 7 could never be my favorite season of Buffy. I think that as a storyline it sounds good, but I just hated the way it was carried out. They were all just so incredibly annoying. The only one who I could tolerate was Amanda, and she died.

I think if they had been made to be more likeable it would have been much better. Or I think I would have preferred that less screen time be devoted to them so that more focus could be on Xander, Willow, and Giles.

I'm actually surprised that they're all so hard to like. Characters on Buffy often tend to be fun and interesting and memorable, but the only thing that comes to mind when I think of the potentials is annoying.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kean
Chosen One


Joined: 04 Feb 2010
Posts: 739

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm honestly not a fan of the Potentials, but I think I'm going to defend them here, because they really weren't the problem with S7, it was the complete and utter lack of leadership they received.

You know on some forums people pose the question of "If You could be Part of the Verse, Who Would You Be and What Would You Do?", my answer to that will forever be "Potential in S7". It's ridiculous and corny, but dear God did those girls need a leader and mentor, and in my mind I have reserved that role to myself. (Nice of me, isn't it? :p)

The Scoobies as a unit had fallen asunder. They turned on each other and it showed. While Buffy was doing everything she could to keep a military operation together, she did nothing for morale. She gave those girls nothing to fight for. I don't hold Buffy responsible for that, because she was stripped of all support. In reality, Giles should have been stepping up in a very real way with the Potentials. Not only guiding them as he did Buffy, but creating a space in which Buffy could impart on them something other than "Fight. Don't die. The end."

I hear the argument a lot that it was a war and the Scoobies didn't have time for such mollycoddling, but that is crap to me. One of the main aspects of war is building camaraderie and kinship with ones' unit. Because there is no other reason to fight other than for each other. How many times has Buffy herself said that she fights for her friends, and not for some unknowing "right". The Potentials were not taught that, if anything they were pitted against each other.

On top of that they were children. Children need looking after, and these kids were not. If anything, the Potentials were a mirror reflection of the ugly state of the Scoobies. Who were the real problem with the season.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kairos
Forum Gargoyle
Moderator


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kean wins, as usual. Forget everything I said on the subject; she's right.
_________________
But there the silver answer rang: not Death, but Love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
ljgould
Forum Guardian
Moderator


Joined: 02 May 2005
Posts: 585
Location: Texas

PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A quick drive-by post while I'm supposed to be watching over my online class...

I agree with Kean that the main problem with Season 7 was the Scoobies. By the end of the show, I wouldn't have blamed Buffy if she'd left the whole bunch of them and joined the circus. Actually, if it hadn't impacted the whole world, she should've left when they kicked her out.

Giles was the worst. He plotted against Buffy and failed to remember that he was her watcher. Willow was so in love (lust?) with Kennedy that she didn't notice her faults. Xander, as usual, didn't listen and it cost him an eye...which was, of course, Buffy's fault. And Dawn, well...she got the impression she was an equal partner in the home Buffy maintained. Sure, Buffy wasn't as helpful as she could've been in mentoring the Potentials, but she was trying to pay the bills and put food on the table. None of the other so-called adults (Giles, Willow, Xander, Anya) helped with that.

OK...back to monitoring a class. Wink
_________________
Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons for you are crunchy and good with catsup.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Yahoo Messenger
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 865

PostPosted: Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you have stated a great summary on “what is wrong” when it comes to the scoobies, and, I did touch on this, but the story is “all about Buffy” and I don’t think the choices for characters in season 6 can be ignored in why “no one makes sense” anymore.

The fact is we are being told, and not shown. Giles suddenly says her plan was genius, The end shot is "just shot, but not emotionally "true."
Anya? Spike? That's all?

The great story of Buffy ended in season 5, for she actually grew up. The effort to bring her back, served Spike's story, half of which is swallowing a rag, and pulling from the anus; and Buffy never came back. That is why the “claim for her own body”—even over “which world” she inhabits or “claims,” is so central, as it wasn’t just her body that was taken in the rape of season 6. It was herself.

And I knew it and have never stopped complaining that it’s all a lot of crap until they actually deal with that issue. It isn’t about claiming a boyfriend, a house, a bedroom or even the scythe. “no friends, no hope, no weaspons” and still we have not seen Buffy claim “me.”

Kennedy mothered Willow, in manipulative praise (her distant mother didn’t give much) and Kennedy’s “innocent privilege” came off as “insistence” to just get into Willow’s pants, even if Willow magicked her way through a lot of laundry.

Xander, actually “took care of the family”—“safe as houses” and “windows of the soul” in fixing all that shattered glass and broken fortress walls; he also fixed the plumbing, the circulatory system, of “the body,” in a town where all the systems’ people had left, and a house whose pipes weren’t made for all those occupants.

The fact that Willow and Buffy created the slayers is actually the start of the great love affair with Willow, which is what season 8 really is, and it was here she finds respite from her fear and isolation. Willow’s lap is always where Buffy pours herself out. After all, there were empty houses all over the town to sleep these people. It was their “unknown potential” in “union of fear” that kept them huddled in one house.

That’s how I knew this army of Buffy was “all about Buffy” in how scared and alone she felt—not about claiming real estate, but a home within herself. Spike took that and still holds it. Crap, he provides the “movable famine”in a 5 dimensions space ship. The roach is not only the drug/magic dimensional metaphor, or of “survival” but the “butt” end of the joke, as well. I can’t compartmentalize the “loss of Buffy” from her own story. I just can’t. Even the choice of Angel and Buffy is because “the scoobies” actually destroyed the world, not the space sex. Proof? Willow and Saga/Alluwyn and the fact Willow’s ears end up pointed and she dies the Guardian for “the lost world.” And Xander has already chosen Dawn long before Angel and Buffy create the world as it should be.

So, I think, people here, the story is actually “backwards” in "who destroyed the world"--it was already being torn apart in "the scoobie choices" and the seed is sad excuse to kill Giles. Why? it was the father who killed the girl in the start of the journey (Hank). Hank destroyed the "seed" who was the little girl of magic!

Yet we have more excuse for magic than ever before, as the divided body story is Buffy claiming herself as both “me” and “home.” I think that "somebody" finally figured out that Buffy has never ever taken back her own power in her own skin since that rape.

Season 7 was St. Spike, not the Scoobies, (which I hoped season 8 was going to deliver, but Joss has decided to tear apart even further) and my proof: Buffy’s last word of her entire journey, her entire 7 years in “living the loyal” and last finale, and last show as “Spike.” What about even that wonderful “catch-all” for the moment to all (and even all of us fans) e.g. “Thanks” in some life affirmation for herself, her family, her potential and acknowledgement of all who made her and her accomplishment, standing beside her in their connected celebration, for the journey already traveled and all who made her capable of standing strong and empowered in her own skin. No. It was the super people acclaiming themselves…and Xander, who single handledly actually cared for everyone, packed the bus and still provided escape to all the “special people.”

F*cking “Spike.” Yeah. That’s what is important to remember for 7 years of “who counts” and “what counts” and “all about Buffy” and “who I am.” Yeah. Joss’s proudest moment for sure.

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> General Show All times are GMT
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group