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Old Tim Minear's interview (on IWRY)

 
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elle2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 11:57 am    Post subject: Old Tim Minear's interview (on IWRY) Reply with quote

hello everyone!

First, I'd like to greet all Merry Christmas! For those who don't believe in Christmas, I'd just say Happy Holidays! Laughing

Anyway, I found an old interview from Tim Minear. I've read about this few years ago but I forgot the site. It's just from random googling that I found this again. It's about TM's views on Season1 of Angel. One of the things that interest me was his POV on IWRY. Since it's B/A related, i've thought to post it here. I'm not sure if it's been discussed here before. If it is, feel free to ignore this.

Quote:
`I Will Remember You` serves as the first full-fledged crossover between BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER and ANGEL, with Buffy coming to Los Angeles as Angel, splattered with its blood during a battle with a demon, suddenly finds himself human. The two lovers come together, believing that theyíve found true happiness with no chance of Angelus returning, but learn that Angel must become what he once was to save the planet. The price for being allowed to do so: no one but Angel will remember the events of the day.

A lot of people have issues with the resetting of the clock thing,` Minear offers, `but I personally love it. For me itís all worth it because of the scene where Sarah is saying, ĎIíll never forget; Iíll never forget; Iíll never forget,í and then, boom, she forgot. Oh, man, it just kills me. And then Angel and Buffy having sexónever a bad thing. We got a lot of heat, too, for what the fans call the ĎGlitter Twins,í actually the Oracles. I understand. Itís a little bit STAR TREK-y in terms of the look. But wait until next year: Joss has got the coolest thing in mind regarding Angelís connections with the powers that be. I canít wait. Itís not going to be the Glitter Twins.

`There were a lot of humorous and touching things in the episode,` he
continues. `Thatís the fun of it, when youíre trying to figure out the story and you sit there saying, ĎLetís say you havenít been mortal for a couple of hundred years and you can eat but it doesnít taste the sameówhatís the first thing youíre going to do? Raid the ice box!í I thought that was pretty bitchiní. Actually, the one thing that I would say about the episode is that we discussed the idea that the entire situation was a test by the Powers That Be. It was supposed to be sort of the ĎLast Temptation of Angelí. In The Last Temptation of Christ, his whole fever dream when heís on the cross is that he comes down off the cross; he gets to live a normal life and grow old, and at the end he chooses to make the sacrifice. That was sort of the idea, and something that kind of got lost there was the idea that they were trying to see if he was worthy. There were no scenes of this shot; I think the idea just kind of fell out of the script naturally, but it was one thing we discussed at some point during the breaking of the story. But then, as will happen, it became about the emotional aspect of it.`

One of the nice surprises of the episode was how effortlessly Sarah Michelle Gellar and David Boreanaz played off of each other, particularly when one realizes that they hadnít worked together in months. Says Minear, `Sarah had so much fun shooting that episode. It was really nice. It was the first time she came over to our show and she was just great. She sent a card over to our crew thanking them, and that was pretty nice.`

http://www.timminear.net/archives/angel/000040.html

Since it's vacation time for me, I thought I spend my time posting here again, (if you don't mind) and to know what other B/A fans think about B/A while it was aired on TV. I highlighted the portion in which TM thought of Angel's sacrifice to give up his humanity was synonymous with Christ dying on the cross. Personally, the degree of sacrifice was different since Christ did it to save the world, while Angel did it to save Buffy. The similarity lies on the concept of love and sacrifice. Angel as a character was terribly attacked by those anti-Angel with his actions on IWRY. I myself, of course, view the same as Minear's. Even after all these years, I still view the same.

What about the others? Do you still think Minear's POV was clearly delivered to the audience? If it is so, then why other fans still think that Angel was "arrogant" and "egotistic" on his decision in IWRY?
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janas
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 1:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Old Tim Minear's interview (on IWRY) Reply with quote

Thanks for reminding me this interview. Love it.
elle2 wrote:
It was supposed to be sort of the ĎLast Temptation of Angelí. In The Last Temptation of Christ, his whole fever dream when heís on the cross is that he comes down off the cross; he gets to live a normal life and grow old, and at the end he chooses to make the sacrifice.

Again love it, and that's why I don't like fanfics Iwry centric that describe a Buffy angry when she remembers the perfect day. To me, there's no way that Buffy wouldn't understand the Angel's sacrifice.
Quote:
What about the others? Do you still think Minear's POV was clearly delivered to the audience? If it is so, then why other fans still think that Angel was "arrogant" and "egotistic" on his decision in IWRY?

Because the others you are referring to or are Spuffy or are Cangel Smile and they must demolish IWRY because they will never have an episode so perfect that celebrated their ship.

Merry Christmas to you too Heart
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elle2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hi janas! Very Happy

While it's true that I've heard such sentiments from B/S camp more than C/A camp, I'm really trying to figure out what could be their basis of such "arrogant" impression of Angel on IWRY? I mean, they must have a basis, at least. Even if most of the time (due to my deep attachment to B/A), I call B/S fans "stupid", deep inside, I also know that some of them might be capable of rational thinking. I mean, before I used to think that they were bunch of dumb B/S fans to think that Buffy should be blame on the A/R...well, not that I agree with them on that matter. Like I said on my previous posts, I realized that Buffy was NOT blameless on the A/R (or as to Sybil's POV, it was RAPE! And I kinda get the point that it was!)...I mean, unlike before, I knew now WHY B/S fans see Buffy as the one to be blamed on that issue. But it doesn't mean I switch sides. As a matter of fact, it only made me convinced that B/S is one of the worst pairing in the verse, probably not behind Connor/Cordy!

Going back to Angel on his decision on IWRY. Analyzing the dialogues, it seems that Angel did NOT REALLY ask to turn him back as a "demon with a soul". Neither did he ask to turn back time. It was the Oracles who said it. Angel only begs for Buffy's life to be saved.

Quote:
Woman: "What happens to all mortal beings. Albeit sooner in her case."
Angel: "She'll die? - Then I'm here to beg for her life."
The Oracles turn and walk away: "It is not our place to grant life or death."
Angel: "And I ask you to take mine back. (The oracles stop walking and turn back to him) Look I can't protect her or anyone this way, not as a man."
Woman: "You're asking to be what you were, a demon with a soul, because of the Slayer?"
Man turns to leave again: "Oh, this is a matter of love. It does not concern us."
Angel: "Yes, it does. The Mohra demon came to take a warrior from your cause - and it succeeded. I'm no good to you like this. I know you have it in your power to make this right. Please."
Man: "What is done can not be undone."
Woman: "What is not yet done can be avoided."
Man: "Temporal folds are not to indulge at - the whims of lower beings."
Woman: "You are wrong. This one is willing to sacrifice every drop of human happiness and love he has ever known for another. He is not a lower being."
Man: "There is one way. But it is not to be undertaken lightly."
Woman: "We swallow this day, as though it had never happened. Twenty-four hours from the moment the demon first attacked you, we take it back."
Angel licks his lips: "Then none of this happened and Buffy and I.. What - what'll stop us from doing the exact same thing again?"
Woman: "You. You alone will carry the memory of this day. - Can you carry that burden?"


IMO, Angel's goal in conversing with the Oracles was to find out what Mohra meant of "End of days" and Buffy's role in it. He went panic when he heard that Buffy would "soon" die. And instead of enjoying the "human life" he had, he instead asked to exchange it for Buffy's life. The only questionable line would be Angel's saying that "..I can't protect her or anyone this way, not as a man."...But I think, it's somewhat feasible, since Angel probably knew consequently that the only way he could give his life to Buffy without him being "literally" dying...is to revert to being "undead". (Somehow, it contrasted Angel's act on the episode "The Trial", when Angel agreed to die in order for Darla to have her "second chance to live")...On IWRY, Angel agreed to give up his "human life" for Buffy and at the same time, he also wanted to help her in fighting on "End of Days"...Of course, we knew by now, that it didn't turn out the way Angel thought of it Sad

To sum it up, I don't see any hint of arrogance on Angel's act on IWRY. Though, I'm not taking away the possibility that I'm too biased to see things clearly. Laughing So I'm just curious to know from other fans here, if there's anything on that episode that made it otherwise?
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janas
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 3:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

According to these fans, the arrogance of Angel consists in the fact that he has made a decision without informing Buffy. He was egoist because he chose to have back his strength as vampire, rather than live a life as a human, with all the limitations that would entail that choice. They don't see any sacrifice on the Angel's side, but only an immature and selfish choice, because he put his needs (to be a hero) above the needs of the woman he loves. These fans then conclude that Angel doesn't matter at all to become human, and as an example also they cite renunciation to the Shanshu.
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elle2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
According to these fans, the arrogance of Angel consists in the fact that he has made a decision without informing Buffy.


hmm..if that's so, I have different scenarios in my head why Angel wasn't able to inform Buffy first on his errands with Oracles.

1) Like I posted earlier, Angel ONLY sought for answers for questions on what Mohra meant of "end of days is coming" and what the slayer's role on it. He probably didn't expect to make a hastily decision until he found out that Buffy's life is in danger. He got panicked when it involved Buffy's safety. IMO, big impromptu decision it's not OOC on Angel's part. He also made a quick decision to "end" his life when The First told her to kill Buffy in Amends. Whenever his loved ones' lives at stake, Angel always make a "major" and somewhat "impulsive" decision to save them at "ANY" cost.

2) (Probably more of a fanfiction)...Buffy thought that Angel went out to buy Orange Juice at the deli. If Angel told Buffy that he would go to the deli, I don't think Buffy would allow Angel to go alone. With all the physical injuries he had (w/c is one of the mysteries how Angel managed to walk coz the way he fell off the ground was enough to break his spine Laughing ), I'm pretty sure Buffy would force him to be his chaperon...Since Angel went alone, and assuming that Cordy & Doyle were out of the office, the only plausible scenario is that Buffy wasn't there when Angel went out. Or perhaps she's still sleeping when Angel decided to go at the deli. Either way, he didn't want to bother Buffy just because he wanted to buy fresh OJ, so he went out alone. He probably left a note to inform her. That should explain why Buffy seemed worried as she paced back & forth, while waiting for him...As he went along, maybe he decided to consult the Oracles first coz he was worried when Mohra said that "soldiers of darkness" are coming and he didn't know "when". So he probably changed his mind of going at the deli to going to the Oracles, instead. (or perhaps going to an antique store first to buy the 1811 famille rose vase as a gift to Oracles)... Like I theorized before, he got panicked when it comes to Buffy, so he prioritized asking the Oracles. He didn't bother to go at the deli afterwards, coz there's no more time left; hence, he decided to spend the little time telling Buffy on Oracle's decision and tell her he did it out of love for her, more than ever!

Either way, it's petty to take against Angel his decision to go & consult the Oracles. Besides, there's a possibility that he had talked about it to Buffy, but she refused to agree coz in her POV, it's a just a part of her job to face "end of days" everyday and Angel didn't need to worry about it. In her mind, Angel's safety is more important than hers. But in Angel's mind, Buffy's safety is more important than his... It's one of those "misunderstanding" stuffs between them in spite the fact that both of them ONLY think of each other's welfare. They failed to meet half way thru, which is quite normal to any relationship. But in IWRY's case, if only the Oracles have given Angel enough time to consult Buffy, I'm sure he'd do it and tell her about it. Unfortunately, the way the Oracles declared it at that moment "we swallow this day..24 hours from the moment the demon first attacked you, we take it back.."... for human dimension's time, the countdown to 24 hours has begun and Angel was forced to decide at time-pressured.

Oh well, maybe I think about it too much....I was just feeling nostalgic esp when I read TM's interview again. I was trying to figure out what was really the "original plan" the writers had on Angel's character and his relationship with Buffy and compared it to current storyline in comics. Yeah, as much as I wanted to ignore the comics, I couldn't help but to feel affected and be disappointed on what I was seeing nowadays. Sad

...I'm trying to analyze on what TM said regarding Angel's act on IWRY:
Quote:
we discussed the idea that the entire situation was a test by the Powers That Be. .... That was sort of the idea, and something that kind of got lost there was the idea that they were trying to see if he was worthy.


worthy of what? Shanshu? or anything else? With another vampire with a (questionable) soul exists nowadays, is Angel still worthy of anything the PTB has to give? By the way, did Angel pass or fail such "test"???

A Bit Shifty
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janas
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In my opinion, the answer is much simpler Smile Simple and genuine in its naked truth and it's Angel himself who tells us why he kept quiet with Buffy.
I couldn't tell you. I wasn't sure if I could do it if I woke up with you one more morning.
Simple and genuine in its crystal Clear purity
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elle2
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 26, 2014 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^indeed, it's the simpler answer. Laughing

But, IMO, such line pertains to two things:

First, the part when he said "I Couldn't tell you..." ; I think it refers to the part when Angel decided to go to the Oracles alone and not mentioning it to Buffy, beforehand. He lost words to his reasons, perhaps, he couldn't explain it clearly to her...

The second part, "I wasn't sure if I could do it if I woke up with you one more morning..."; I think this refers to the part where if given the chance the Oracles provided him more time with Buffy as well as to contemplate his decision, he wouldn't be certain if he'd still choose to sacrifice his humanity. I said earlier that he'd probably discuss with Buffy the Oracles' solution and they would probably find another way without him turning back as vampire. If Angel wasn't made to decide right away, and be with her for one more day, he would DEFINITELY choose to be with her as a human as long as he could.

I thought that way coz if such answer refers to Angel's reason on not telling Buffy he'd go to the Oracles, then it somehow contradict the fact that Angel didn't know that turning back time was the ONLY solution the Oracles could provide. Coz the second part, definitely refers to his desire to be with her and yet he wasn't sure if that's the right decision, given there was still time for them to be together Very Happy

It's just perplexing to think, at times, that when I saw this episode for the first time, such issue didn't go through my mind. Perhaps, I only viewed the episode as it was...just a mere tv show. But years later, and due to my growing curiosity about the fandom, I was surprised to know such issue against Angel was raised in this beautiful episode. And I'm scratching my head figuring out why. Probably the simplest explanation is because those people JUST don't like Angel, at all! Perhaps just as I don't like spikey. But the difference is, I could back up my reasons why I don't like spikey being all hailed above Buffy & Angel as a character. What solid reasons those anti-Angel have against Angel that would make me convince Angel being beneath spikey?

Anyway, janas, thanks for your time reasoning out me. Perhaps we could continue this kind of interaction tomorrow? (if you may)..right now, it's way past my bedtime and my eyes are all drowsy. Laughing

Merry Christmas to you, once again Heart
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