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Religion vs true Christianity

 
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cheryl
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Joined: 18 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 5:06 pm    Post subject: Religion vs true Christianity Reply with quote

Sybil,
I thought a new thread would help so we don't hijack the other. : Very Happy
I will put my thoughts in the next post.



sybil wrote:
WHEEE! LIFE of the original B/A fans who understood this story that in or out of time Buffy loves Angel and Angel loves Buffy. Isn’t that lovely to be shown something like that, which is understood globally and was so readily recognized for those beginning to awaken or those whose journey is ending?

As for Joss’s atheism. I happen to agree with a lot of Joss’ politics. He considers himself both an atheist and a humanist.

So, the rest is fine to cut, MS. MODS because I am NOT a Christian.

I am glad to report that I am an equal opportunity “hater” of all three of the big “same God” faiths on the planet because there is no greater division between people on the planet than of those faiths of dogmatic religion. Not race. Not economic status. The first Christian I ever met was a Buddhist, who actually understood “the path” is THIS world.

Yes, I am very conscious that what I think CANNOT be politely expressed when it comes to the D.T’s election; it is the failure of education that allowed such clichéd manipulation by “the propaganda machine,” chapter and verse, so well outlined by Goebbels, that it is breathtaking. And what comes next? Well, what do you think? NATO is “outdated” and “climate change” is a hoax invented by the Chinese. Association with D.T. is all it takes for “redemption.”

So, why do both have relevance to this post? Because I appreciate science. Why? Because there is NEVER a final answer. And yes, I love, love the notion of “nature” in metaphor or anthromorphic terms of a trinity that is love, life, death. But I understand a metaphor makes for a stylized way of seeing and that doesn’t make it so—even to me.

The faithful in religion may have many questions, but mostly when they say, “They have faith,” BELIEVE them. There is only adamancy for a position based on, you got it, FAITH. That is a circular argument based on ONE Book I simply can’t accept as the ONLY story to be told as absolute and final arbiter of the truth—not when God is excused by Man’s “poor behavior” or “misunderstanding Him.”

I am glad that faith gives people some sense of personal life structure, a sense of a deeper reality within personality that helps with connection to their humanity and that of others, helps them imagine greater than their current experience or condition, find and take comfort, hope, courage, and many other positive outcomes to human struggles, even some means to confront the realities of death. I just can’t build an absolute on what is recorded in very human outlooks and preferences, let alone assigned to a being called HOLY, perfect, omnipresent and omniscient, when religions come and go in human favor, usually by slaughter and domination.

Yes, I was trained in parochial schools. Yes, the Bible has actually many versions with each making claims theirs is The Holy One and “God’s Word.”…when God said, “I am the Word.” Also I am the LIGHT, and God is LOVE, so why do we need the Bible or any “one book as “truth” at all?

And yes, the Bible isn’t a series of facts nor is it even meant to be. I absolutely couldn’t imagine writing anything, without mythical reference and the reverence surrounding the ideal expression within it or even of it. I think the capacity to understand someone else’s faith is essential to writing the person who holds it, and to make sure to show the struggles with it as part of the “right to know” with some capacity to imagine and “walk in their shoes.”

I appreciate beauty, art, music, dance and elegance in math—all things that raises one’s consciousness to a wider/deeper experience that I feel celebrates the human imagination; and offers worlds of exploration on what consciousness is and means, and why humans care, even how such energy-matter conversions are part of the universe’s chaos/order. (Maybe “you” energy-matter “become” light, for example. Hee. I think that is pretty and why I loved Angel’s soul being shown literally as light thrilled me—I have no problem with light that is beyond my own visual acutity, even as a species, if you feel more…ultraviolet!

But, the results in beliefs of SUPERIORITY that support very human structures of power in PATRIARCHY leaves me cold. FEMINISM is NOT female superiority, it is EQUALITY. I don’t see that in ANY walk of life. You tell me why Jesus was not a girl. Would that have made any difference in what Jesus to the Christ means? Well, it shouldn’t, (just as I am fully aware that God has no gender, but “us folks” need the metaphor); but it most certainly does “in the real world” of time and space on planet earth.

I would also point out that the “story” of Buffy and Angel as Romeo and Juliet also required death—Joss didn’t lie about it—NO DIFFERENT THAN THAT OF THE CHRIST MYTH, (with all attendant references to the magical three), but the difference was they become “normal people”—and THAT to me is pure magic. B/A is NOT a tragedy. And THAT is why the story’s completion with the hope for happily ever after—after all the pain, sorrow, loss, death, is the highest and best expression of LOVE: to become “just” a normal, human being.”

Joss actually taught me to read. THAT means to question, look everywhere, not regurgitate answers for an A.

I saw a comedy about the devil called “Bedazzled” and the devil said, “God is too ridiculous to believe in.” And the answer to it, God laughing. (hee). However, the required division of body and soul to make “dogma” work, has been the source of a problematic recitation in “God said” and the OBEDIENT, in worshipfulness, who followed orders, not to mention illogic. If One is all powerful, all knowing (omniscient) and everywhere at once (omnipresent), then God CAN”T do one thing: Get lost. Slang and literally.

For those who accept Jesus, the destruction of flesh, to vilify the body, to turn it to “meat” and venerate the soul, always given masculine attributation, has great roots in the “problematic” nature of woman: a. she wants to know on every level; b. her body creates the body, every cell of the blastula until the delivery of a separate and unique human, c. she can raise a man, without a touch. THAT is the problem, isn’t it? HE is not in control, so HE must control HER body, HER.

You have faith. I have no arguments with that. None. Zero. Nada. But legislating your beliefs on my person, and me, as “mere” “expression of your faith,” as the ONLY good and ONLY morality and the ONLY RIGHT WAY to exist and to behave raises my hackles. In short: I have the right to ME and my autonomy; and that means the right to MY life and to be left alone.

So...there it all is, folks, and that means I probably have a lot of gratitude for Joss, even as much as I hate that he flat out betrayed himself. Trust the tale.
HUGS!
sybil

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cheryl
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I am glad to report that I am an equal opportunity “hater” of all three of the big “same God” faiths on the planet because there is no greater division between people on the planet than of those faiths of dogmatic religion. Not race. Not economic status. The first Christian I ever met was a Buddhist, who actually understood “the path” is THIS world.


Let me start off by saying that my purpose in responding is not to convince you of anything. I am going to share my view and let you decide whats true or not true.

First and foremost, I am not religious, at all. I actually have grown quite tied of the word and the notion that because I believe in Jesus, I am this or that.
Pharisees and Sadducees in the Bible were "religious" and the only group of people that I can think of that Jesus spoke harshly to. Religious equates to legalistic in my mind and while it's a slippery slope NOT to become holier than thou, judgemental, too proud of your own accomplishments, it is the goal and direction of the true Christian not to go that route. My definition of a Christian is a person who has met and follows Jesus Christ. The end. So in my opinion, a person who is chronically hateful, racist, provoking, jugemental and just about any other negative non helpful adjective you can think of, is NOT a Christian. May be deceived, may be a wolf in sheeps clothing sent to keep the pot stirred, it doesn't really matter. This is the first thing you have to understand about my thought process if you want to understand where I am coming from.



Quote:
Yes, I am very conscious that what I think CANNOT be politely expressed when it comes to the D.T’s election; it is the failure of education that allowed such clichéd manipulation by “the propaganda machine,” chapter and verse, so well outlined by Goebbels, that it is breathtaking. And what comes next? Well, what do you think? NATO is “outdated” and “climate change” is a hoax invented by the Chinese. Association with D.T. is all it takes for “redemption.”


I'm not quite sure what you are getting at here, elaborate if you feel it's important to warrant more in depth discussion.

Quote:
So, why do both have relevance to this post? Because I appreciate science. Why? Because there is NEVER a final answer. And yes, I love, love the notion of “nature” in metaphor or anthromorphic terms of a trinity that is love, life, death. But I understand a metaphor makes for a stylized way of seeing and that doesn’t make it so—even to me.


I also appreciate science, what I find intersting about science vs the Bible is that science will come along and make claims to this or that and later, sometimes much later, be discredited as untrue. The same has never and will never happen with the Bible. Gods word doesn't change and isn't ever wrong.



Quote:
The faithful in religion may have many questions, but mostly when they say, “They have faith,” BELIEVE them. There is only adamancy for a position based on, you got it, FAITH. That is a circular argument based on ONE Book I simply can’t accept as the ONLY story to be told as absolute and final arbiter of the truth—not when God is excused by Man’s “poor behavior” or “misunderstanding Him.”


Everyone has faith to one extent or another. Do you not demonstrate faith that when you sit in a chair it won't collapse? That belief is faith.
I don't understand what you mean when you say that God is excused by mans poor behavior.
I'd like to tell you a little about the Bible and offer you a resource if you ever find you have interest in learning about it. The resourse is written by James MacDonald of Walk in the word and the book is "God wrote a book"
I just want to mention one thing that really got me and then you can either look into it yourself or ignore. What really struck me as profound was that The Bible was removed from the best sellers list because it is number 1 every single time. I think that's incredible.

Quote:
I am glad that faith gives people some sense of personal life structure, a sense of a deeper reality within personality that helps with connection to their humanity and that of others, helps them imagine greater than their current experience or condition, find and take comfort, hope, courage, and many other positive outcomes to human struggles, even some means to confront the realities of death. I just can’t build an absolute on what is recorded in very human outlooks and preferences, let alone assigned to a being called HOLY, perfect, omnipresent and omniscient, when religions come and go in human favor, usually by slaughter and domination.


Like I said before, a Christian follows Jesus and Jesus teaches and instructs that we are to love. Forgive. Give. Keep Peace. Protect.
I have believed in God my whole life and spent the first 42 years pretty self absorbed and ignorant of whats really important and then I met Jesus and everything changed. Without him I was bitter, lonely, hateful, arrogant, volatile and a whole bunch of other things. I can honestly say that the ONLY thing truly good in me is him. I understand that if you have never met him that type of thinking is going to set off alarms. Been there. I am thankful to him I'm not there anymore.

Quote:
Yes, I was trained in parochial schools. Yes, the Bible has actually many versions with each making claims theirs is The Holy One and “God’s Word.”…when God said, “I am the Word.” Also I am the LIGHT, and God is LOVE, so why do we need the Bible or any “one book as “truth” at all?


The Bible is one of the ways that God communicates with us and tells us HIS story. I appreciate having it.



Quote:
And yes, the Bible isn’t a series of facts nor is it even meant to be. I absolutely couldn’t imagine writing anything, without mythical reference and the reverence surrounding the ideal expression within it or even of it. I think the capacity to understand someone else’s faith is essential to writing the person who holds it, and to make sure to show the struggles with it as part of the “right to know” with some capacity to imagine and “walk in their shoes.”


I think the Bible IS a series of facts, almost a history book but it's also so much more. The layers and meanings, the symbolism, the mysteries. The insight into the God who created everything and the great lengths he has went to secure our future with him.

Quote:
But, the results in beliefs of SUPERIORITY that support very human structures of power in PATRIARCHY leaves me cold. FEMINISM is NOT female superiority, it is EQUALITY. I don’t see that in ANY walk of life. You tell me why Jesus was not a girl. Would that have made any difference in what Jesus to the Christ means? Well, it shouldn’t, (just as I am fully aware that God has no gender, but “us folks” need the metaphor); but it most certainly does “in the real world” of time and space on planet earth.


In the Bible, Lady Wisdom is depicted as female but God and Jesus are most certainly male. Being a female, I have strong feelings about feminism in that I think it's bullcrap. Women are not equal to men anymore than men are equal to women. It's like comparing apples to olives. Both have their unique and superior skill set and it should never have turned into a competition. The Bible makes some pretty easy to understand direction concerning husbands and wives and how they are to view each other. Women are to submit to their husband and husbands are to love their wife the way that Jesus loved the church. Who couldn't submit easily to that guy? I can tell you from personal experience, that kind of love directed at you takes you willingly to your knees. Remove all the fear of being overtaken, overpowered, ignored, taken lightly, disrespected and replace it with nothing but true blue love. That's the kind of love Jesus gives and directs men to give women.


Quote:
“God said” and the OBEDIENT, in worshipfulness, who followed orders, not to mention illogic.


I am not always or maybe even most of the time but I so very much want to be obedient to Jesus. If I listed every single positive and good attribute it wouldn't do him justice.


Quote:
For those who accept Jesus, the destruction of flesh, to vilify the body, to turn it to “meat” and venerate the soul, always given masculine attributation, has great roots in the “problematic” nature of woman: a. she wants to know on every level; b. her body creates the body, every cell of the blastula until the delivery of a separate and unique human, c. she can raise a man, without a touch. THAT is the problem, isn’t it? HE is not in control, so HE must control HER body, HER.


Im sorry. I don't get this type of thinking. Who is controlling whom? Jesus doesn't control anyone. You get a choice, he says, "I place before you life and death, choose life". He paid the price with his blood so that we are ABLE to make that choice.



Quote:
You have faith. I have no arguments with that. None. Zero. Nada. But legislating your beliefs on my person, and me, as “mere” “expression of your faith,” as the ONLY good and ONLY morality and the ONLY RIGHT WAY to exist and to behave raises my hackles. In short: I have the right to ME and my autonomy; and that means the right to MY life and to be left alone.


You are correct. You have been afforded the right to choose. My response is not meant to judge or condemn but just like you want to be understood. I do too. I also feel compelled to defend the name of Jesus, who has been nothing but generous, loving, forgiving, merciful and there for me. I know there is a danger of total discredit as a sane rational human being when sharing my views but truth be told, I want to do right by him more than be seen as right by others.
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 22, 2017 11:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I probably won't take part in this thread beyond this response, but I feel when the topic of religion comes up it's important to get a diverse sample of perspectives.

Like Cheryl, I'm a Christian, and I'm with her on much of the above. There's just one small remark I want to respond to, because it's one where we're not in agreement:

cheryl wrote:
So in my opinion, a person who is chronically hateful, racist, provoking, jugemental and just about any other negative non helpful adjective you can think of, is NOT a Christian. May be deceived, may be a wolf in sheeps clothing sent to keep the pot stirred, it doesn't really matter. This is the first thing you have to understand about my thought process if you want to understand where I am coming from.


If people like the one you describe calls him or herself Christian, and many of them do -- I would accept that they are Christians. To be sure, they're bad Christians. Jesus, the Bible, and traditional all make it clear that that kind of behavior is wrong. But all of us are guilty of terrible behavior in various degrees, and that doesn't necessarily mean we're not believers.

I know I've sinned plenty, and I know I've done it while thinking I was doing the right thing. My faith helps me understand that and try to improve, but it doesn't protect me from making bad choices, and sinning doesn't disqualify me from being a true Christian.

So for anyone listening, now you have two different Christian viewpoints to compare and contrast, and no ill will contained in them. Keep looking and you'll find they keep branching off. There are a lot of us. Smile
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cheryl
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we aren't in disagreement. I also believe that I have been forgiven for all sins, past, present and future. I also agree that we all fall short, very short. I think I didn't do a good job explaining my thoughts.

i think the difference is that if you meet Jesus you WANT to represent and honor his name and I don't believe that it's possible to be chronically hateful, mean spirited, etc...after you have met him. I would never want to judge someone else's journey, although obviously maybe I am a little bit. Something I need to be more aware of.
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I think I see now. I'm Catholic, and we don't have a concept of "meeting Jesus" or "being saved" as a single point in time, so there's no way to look at the before and after of it.

Since I can't identify whether or not someone is sincere in their faith, I have to take it on face value if they claim to be Christian. Thus, not drawing a distinction between true Christianity and religion.

May sound like splitting hairs but that just highlights how at the core, we're all one people and who cares about our little differences. No need to check your awareness or anything like that. Examining traditions of faith isn't judgment.
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