Blood Roses Community Forum Index

"It started with a girl..."


 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

17th yr Anniversary of "I Will Remember You"
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> B/A Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 322

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Joss is just like any of us who is desperately wanted to be heard. Sadly, I hated that bald guy again that every sarcasm came out on him, I find it unfunny. I mean, how am I supposed to trust this bald guy who:


Bald guy? What does being bald have to do with anything? In spite of "bald is beautiful"....which in some cases it really is....most men are very sensitive about losing their hair and would find it hurtful to be described as "the bald guy". I'm a hairdresser so I know how traumatic hair loss can be for people and I'm sorry but it just seems like a low blow to call him that bald guy. There's plenty to criticize without dragging his personal appearance into it. I actually agree with you about Joss' tweets not being funny. He seems to be having a really hard time dealing with the election results and I think politics can sometimes make a person a little crazy. When the time is right I'm gonna tweet him and equate his feelings about trump with my feelings about Spuffy.




Quote:
But as being a fan of a "creator" or "showrunner" ? I mean, what else can you be a fan of them aside from their ideas and points of view in life?


Well for me, I'm a fan of Joss because for the most part he has entertained me immensely....with fiction. I completely disagree with Joss' point of view concerning life. He's an atheist you know. I remember listening to his Humanist speech a few years ago and ranting about it to Comicfan in pm. In his speech Joss tells of having his big epiphany at age 17 while watching the movie Close Encounters. His big light bulb moment, was that this life, in the here and now, is all there is, and he became an atheist. His arrogance in describing all this made him seem like an idiot to me and I wondered how I could be so fond of his work when our ideas about life were so very different. So no, being a fan of a persons work doesn't mean you accept and embrace every idea or point of view about life....because I too am a Christian.

On a side note I always thought Joss' big epiphany at age 17 was a good counter argument to Spuffy's claiming 17 yr old Buffy was too young to fall in love with Angel for forever. Apparently Joss would disagree since he made a whole life descision at the same age.



Quote:
don't know how many B/A fans can still cherish B/A without being reminded that fans of rival ship are just lurking around ready to slap their OWN VERSION of "REALITY" to them and brag about Joss' solid support of their ship?


Spuffy's slapping their own version of reality on the verse is not a new thing. They've been doing that for as long as I can remember. Way, way before they had a leg to stand on.


Quote:
I mean, I can pretend once in awhile via our own little Bangel community in twitter. But then again, in reality, we are mere fans who are just STUCK in the past, reliving past B/A moments, while the fans of the rival ship are MOVING FORWARD with their flags on high, singing victory because their baldy "god" favored their ship sailing smoothly even in troubled waters and their copycat blondie ugly vamp captain is CONTINUALLY EVOLVING being blessed by their "god", who ironically has the reputation of being SADISTIC to his creation because for him "pain" is a beautiful sight, but suddenly became a joyful god when it comes to his favorite ship and to his fave "ugly copycat captain".


I don't get the defeatist attitude. Why focus on only half of the Joss quote, when the most important thing he said in relation to B/A fans came after the preferring Spuffy part.....

“I’m a Buffy/Spike shipper. I always felt like he was a more evolved person, but that’s like saying Juliet’s going to be so happy with Benvolio and everyone will love it. Buffy/Angel is for the ages; Buffy/Spike is maybe for me.”

Now I'm not into Shakeshere, so I had to google this Benvolio dude....very clearly there is no way Juliet was ever going to end up with, or be happy with Benvolio. Joss may prefer Spuffy but he is saying here that he recognizes the power of the Buffy/Angel story. Buffy and Angel is the love story for the ages, just like Romeo and Juliet is a love story for the ages.....Not Juliet and Benvolio....and not Buffy and Spike. That's a pretty important statement if you ask me. Joss still gets it. So let Spuffy's celebrate their tiny victory. It's a fleeting victory....and deep down they know it too.


Quote:
(this is why I really prefer to be a Christian than to be a "jossian" fan)


You cant just paint every Joss fan with a broad brush. It's not an either/or thing. It's possible to be both.


I've been re-watching Angel and I've been amazed at how differently I've viewed things this time around. I'm gonna start S5 tonight so I'm almost finished and then I'll share my thoughts on the re-watch. I will say I have enjoyed it so much more this time around.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Warrior


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 240

PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2017 10:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^hey bonnaleah, nice to hear from you again. Though, I was hoping you would post in other threads that talk about optimism rather than refuting my rants against Joss. But in anyways, happy to see old timers come back.

So, being impulsive and somehow excited to engage with a fellow B/A'er, I'm only here to answer your questions and comment on some:

Quote:
Bald guy? What does being bald have to do with anything? In spite of "bald is beautiful"....which in some cases it really is....most men are very sensitive about losing their hair and would find it hurtful to be described as "the bald guy". I'm a hairdresser so I know how traumatic hair loss can be for people and I'm sorry but it just seems like a low blow to call him that bald guy.



Yes..I guess I don't need to deny it. Yes, I'm giving Joss a low blow. (did I just use a right idiom?!) I know as a joss fan, you kinda sort of "empathizing" or "sympathizing" to that name call. And you are also a hairdresser so you kinda understand the feeling of such offence. But as a David Boreanaz fan, I also kinda find it insulting how Joss made fun of his "overhanging forehead"; hence, the unfunny term "Captain Forehead" which I find perplexing because I don't see anything wrong on DB's forehead. Maybe my emotional disgust at Whedon somehow compelled me to realize how Joss can make fun of DB's forehead, wherein now, as I see, Joss' head is almost looks like a forehead. I guess, in reality, KARMA really works.

I know, it's a low blow to Joss. Call it my "defense mechanism" and my own way of sarcasm, cause you know how we are familiar with the term of "BIG BAD GUY"...so I guess, since I consider joss as the "bad guy", i guess, i just find it fitting to use the "big bald guy", as it perfectly describes joss.

No offense for those men who suffer hair loss. And if I did, I am sorry.

Quote:
When the time is right I'm gonna tweet him and equate his feelings about trump with my feelings about Spuffy.


I already did!!!!...just like I said, he probably muted me, ignore my message or as I suspect, he turned off his notifications from those people he doesn't follow. He got burned from twitter during Ultron, so I guess, the best way I can think he could protect himself from bashers is to turn off the notifications, in which less temptation to read tweets in which he was tagged. Unless he got curious to comments about his tweets, he may be tempted to read the comments replied to his tweets but not the ones he was tagged on.


Quote:
So no, being a fan of a persons work doesn't mean you accept and embrace every idea or point of view about life....because I too am a Christian.


It doesn't mean that if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for anyone else. I do find some joss fanatics who like his ideas and like him for that. And besides, it's been told in history how people tend to get fanatic because of an idealogy. So, when I say people tend to get fanatic of person because of his idea, yeah, that's what I really meant. People can like people because of their ideas.

Quote:
Spuffy's slapping their own version of reality on the verse is not a new thing. They've been doing that for as long as I can remember. Way, way before they had a leg to stand on.


I know that. That's why some B/A fans felt the need to hide in other place where they think B/S fan couldn't find them. In which, I say, hiding now is now futile since, I don't see any reason why B/S would attack a Bangel fan in a Bangel place, esp now B/S FEELS secure of their ship.

Quote:

I don't get the defeatist attitude. Why focus on only half of the Joss quote, when the most important thing he said in relation to B/A fans came after the preferring Spuffy part.....


For me it's simple; how can Joss separate his inclination to "develop" Spuke from Buffy/Angel's development as a couple?! If joss found a way to separate his "idea" of Buffy ending up with some clown compared to GENERAL idea of Buffy must end up with Angel, then, why oh why, I don't see MANY B/A fans supporting the current storyline in comics?

But perhaps, if you find optimism of his quote, then I'd be glad. Wink

I mean, Spuke being a MORE "evolved", as in MORE plus EVOLVED describing Spuke, is pretty much simple for me. Funny, because even if he said that B/A is for the ages....I guess, Joss is PRETTY MUCH CLEAR on who he LIKES Buffy to be with, FOR HIM. I don't see any further analysis or hidden cryptic message of what Joss meant when he said he is a B/S shipper. He started the staments with "I'M A B/S SHIPPER" and ended with "B/S maybe for me". Any words about B/A that came in between are just shallow explanations or him trying to be funny...but for me, yeah, I pretty GET what he meant.

And...since you pretty much call Joss as "creator", I guess, how can we refute a "creator's idea" if we are just merely treated as "audience" being fed of story we ARE FORCED "to swallow"?! Wink


Quote:
It's a fleeting victory....and deep down they know it too.


nice optimism.

I wish you were right, bonnaleah. Hope other B/A fans will be enliven by that thought. But I wish it weren't done in the comics.

Comics is useless for me...and if ever Joss made a Bangel reunion in the comics, then I think it's NOT as satisfying a win as what I hope for. It's hollow victory.

But on the other hand, I think Bangel can STILL win.....with the help of its fanbase!

And that I think Joss quote would be tested to be true: THE TALE WILL PREVAIL OVER THE TELLER. and Buffy/Angel are for the ages.

Then...let's show Joss that Bangel's tale WILL PREVAIL and meant for eternity...more than the story told by some tellers, be it joss or his comic minions.

Are you game? Wink




Sybil...I'm taking notes. I'll be back with you. This weekend. I promise. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 322

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 2:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Then...let's show Joss that Bangel's tale WILL PREVAIL and meant for eternity...more than the story told by some tellers, be it joss or his comic minions.

Are you game?


I think Joss already knows that the Buffy/Angel love story is the story that will last for eternity, hence his statement that Buffy/Angel is for the ages and the comparison to Romeo and Juliet....but what do you have in mind?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheryl
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2017 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I mean, how am I supposed to trust this bald guy who:
1) is not really good in keeping his promise,
2) likes to trick fans' emotions, cheers a "supporting character" and "EVOLVING" him by TELLING his story as if everything REVOLVES around that creepy character,
3) makes bad jokes,
4) had a tantrum of QUITTING Twitter when MANY CRITICIZED him for a storyline but came back so he could fulfill his fantasy of being a political hero,
5) likes his female characters to suffer trauma and abuse so guys will be turned on by these damaged female characters and see them developed "feelings" with creepy guys and eventually called it "mature love"

So for me, I find more reasons to doubt him than reason to stay faithful on his talent.


You know nothing can drag me back out faster than Joss nay saying so here it goes.

Quote:
I mean, how am I supposed to trust this bald guy who:
1) is not really good in keeping his promise,



What promise did Joss make that he hasn't kept? From my view Joss made promises through Buffy and Angel that he has always kept, like the way that Angel was is and always will be Buffy's choice when given one.
He's the guy she loved more than anything in this life, the guy she can't risk. The one she "feels". That doesn't mean Buffy is ignorant of all the reasons their coupling is off limits. Recently they almost destroyed the world by giving in to their feelings. A world both have sworn to protect.
Or the way Joss promises that for Angel Buffy is THE ONE. The only one capable of true and perfect happiness. The one he wants so badly he would risk his soul to have her.


Quote:
likes to trick fans' emotions, cheers a "supporting character" and "EVOLVING" him by TELLING his story as if everything REVOLVES around that creepy character,


By evolves you mean allows the character to grow? Somewhat like Wes? Or Tara? Like it or not Spike is in this Universe and his character deserves the space to become whatever Joss wants him to become.

Quote:
makes bad jokes,


I have always found him to be hilarious. Whitty. Highly intellegent. So I guess comedy is in the ear of the listener.



Quote:
had a tantrum of QUITTING Twitter when MANY CRITICIZED him for a storyline but came back so he could fulfill his fantasy of being a political hero,


OMFREAKING GOSH! He did not change his mind? The nerve. Nobody likes to be criticized or mocked. Everyone should have the space to recover. What are we running here?


Quote:
likes his female characters to suffer trauma and abuse so guys will be turned on by these damaged female characters and see them developed "feelings" with creepy guys and eventually called it "mature love"


I see that he likes his female characters to be strong. Courageous. Whitty. Beautiful. Brave. Selfless. Different than every single other character. This is Buffy Anne Summers. Now think about who continues to be written as her match. It isn't Spike, it's Angel.

Quote:
So for me, I find more reasons to doubt him than reason to stay faithful on his talent.


I don't doubt him at all.
_________________
More evolved= being the one of four not elevated enough to have the title.

Irony= see above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 840

PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2017 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. Cheryl. Please tell me did BTVS achieve it's own thesis? And no it wasn't Angel. "True love of the ages" always DIES. That is EXACTLY what this narrative (both shows) requires to HAVE IT.

ATS ORIGINAL thesis?

Did Spike? Yes. Absolutely. Case closed.

I am not a total Joss basher, but see above in your own answers; and, offense or not, I wrote in MISC.

Of course, I read the entire thing wrong, as these were only AVATARS, "all along" and that means there is NO narrative "underpinning" as "anything goes" on the psychological plane. And that makes for "so what? to me. The guide , the avatar, IS NOT A PERSON. THIS "names" this part of personality "Buffy" facing the subconscious, bravely heading into darkness to understand, to know, to find out the forbidden for the person (unnamed--I say Dawn, the "key" or else Buffy remains struggling in a nut house and we are privy to her internal struggle). However, I prefer Buffy is the person and "the key" shown has "normal human" the avatar/goal; the connector between id and superego to the "I" of Buffy.

You also have to deal with the actual show of a possible "reality" change in the episode "Orpheus"--it is critical I understand what you think happened when Angelus got "sucked into" Angel (this time) in that "surreal" reality plane of the drug induced "connected and shared" type of dream plane" between him and Faith. I maintain the integrity of the two people theory because I believe the entire thing is Faith's POV.

Angel THE PERSON feels weak and is dying (and NOT Angelus), but it is the sense of things that ANGEL needs this evil guy just to SURVIVE. Evil is stronger than good? THE HELLS???? So, Angel is not CLEARLY SHOWN to me. Angelus seems horrified, of course to be forced into ANGEL. (remember, it was the soul originally stuffed into Angelus. the curse.

This was the vice versa to show the INTEGRATION that was always there--REPRESSION--not two people as was believed by BUFFY and Angel, THIS was the "show" of the true psycholigcal conflict in ONE person. One part of the personality (superego/soul) accept the horror of Angelus AS himself.

Thus, the name "slippage" at times, and the guilt of Angel (superego acting upon id and ego) makes him speak of his hands doing terrible things he feels because he REMEMBERS it AS IF he did these things, but actually "we know" he didn't. THAT "change" IF FROM ANGEL's POV, made this entire narrative fall apart. Why?

STILL A VAMPIRE! STILL IN AN OEDIPAL FAMILY! blechhh.

With FAITH's POV, this surreal plane makes it possible for us to see the reality of Angel's soul as a whole person, NOT merely a conscience. IMO, which makes the REASON for Angel as still a "stuck" vampire correct, not to mention, Faith is NOT "the dark wife" of myth (Cordelia is), but is the DARK sister to Angel aka Kathy, Dru and finally Illyria, just as HE remains a vampire, for he can't "shanshu" without the true love. ATF uses Connor--himself--as "self love"--necessary for "mature love," in the appropriate baptism, (not rain this time), his own tears.



You and I, Cheryl, look at Angel as two distinct persons--I happen to love this kind of clean approach and grounding to help me accept whatever "rules" I am shown--and enjoy a new world in "suspended belief"--as long as the bubble isn't burst OUT OF CLUELESSNESS TO ITS OWN REALITY (whether I personally believe such things or not). Both people do use the same body--as NEITHER is "this world" physical, but need "a body" to have effect IN IT. ONe is daemon (NEUTRAL) corrupted by flesh of a dying person to become DEMON and the other is SOUL--literally shown in a "soul ectomy" having both matter-energy (physical and spiritual) reality in "the light" of the soul.

This is why ORPHEUS is critical to understanding WHO ANGEL IS. Do you believe that Angel met the burden of his journey in ATS? WHY or why not?

The narrative states that the soul is unique to the person and the paradox of GOD "stuffness" in its holy/perfect state. I learned souls cannot be destroyed nor corrupted, as Joss has said can happen in this story. In fact, he has the body "remember" the soul of Fred, as if the flesh has a kind of "muscle memory" of not only "personality," but the conscience and "soul" of Fred in Illyria. It is why she "emerges" or "taints" Illyria the god stuffed into this vessel. It supports the idea of tainted Spike. But I do not call what Spike REMEMBERS AS LOVE--also resentment for Mom--as love for Dru. But what he shows is LOYALTY, no matter what. I say it is "animal IMPRINTING." He can't. Period.

ALSO I learned the soul is the gift from God, thus can't "become" not God or less perfect and that the soul makes humans different from their physical bodies of earth that do corrupt (age, rot). So...I take the literal show of two people as part of "suspended belief" and factual--even if I don't believe in souls at all.


suspend


I put my thoughts on Joss elsewhere, but it is not "happy" regarding religion, as Joss and I do agree a lot, but NOT to use the "agenda of horror" in the "ditch the thesis" for stating the same existential manifesto to subvert his own narrative. OVER and OVER. And OVER.

Joss is of the school, in fact, that "true love" is a thing that humans can experience in more ways than for a person (e.g. a calling) and that a person can fall in love more than once because humans have that capacity to open themselves to it more than once. Or something like that.

B/A is "one for the ages" because it is SUPPOSED to viewed as IMMATURE, and IDEALISTIC. Buffy died and went through--operative word THROUGH all the permutations of personality and conflict with other to arrive at both self acceptance and the capacity to "Maturely" love another--accept their flaws and support their development as they support yours. That is why Angel is merely "retreat" to wishville and destruction of "the world" for it is one ONLY of fantasy.

It is MEANT to be posed as the trite conflict of the "hero" unable to do both calling and "live the love" with "the one"...that actually shows the cliché of another and another that is "different" does not mean "unequal" " HENCE, Spuffy is the "mature relationship" and IS WHY "the world" and Buffy's increasing family includes more and more "civilized"--touch of humanity creatures "on their way" to be "just people" while Buffy remains "the slayer" a part (and yet apart) of the group of "internalized guides" --all set on the psychological plane in which rules of gravity etc do not apply, just as in dream. KEERIMINIES, how far we have fallen!

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kairos
Forum Gargoyle
Moderator


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1400

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello, everyone. How wonderful to see active threads around here...I had thought I was checking the forums every day as usual, but it looks like I missed a few.

Not that you'd know it either way, what with my typical silence. I'm here to apologize for that -- in the real way, not the "here's my list of excuses" way. I really wish I could contribute more. It's not so much that I'm too busy anymore, as that I can't concentrate on Buffy meta. I get distracted and it takes forever to get one little thought out. I guess that, instead of getting angry or upset when Joss and the comics got so disappointing with their portrayal of B/A, I just lost interest.

I'm sorry for not dropping in with the occasional post just to keep up with my friendships here. I'm sorry I haven't finished "Wolfsbane". When I do (trying real hard to not say "if"), I'll post it here. I hope that you can all manage to keep some conversation going and that B/A stays alive with or without me.

Going through the rest of the threads now, see how much I can respond to while I'm here...
_________________
But there the silver answer rang: not Death, but Love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
cheryl
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sybil,
I'm not ignoring you, work has been off rails busy. Give me tonight to gather my thoughts and I will try to respond by tomorrow.

Agree or disagree, I always love to read your posts on these characters.
_________________
More evolved= being the one of four not elevated enough to have the title.

Irony= see above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 840

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 1:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sobs shamelessly. I am so very happy to hear from all you--I so miss you all. I know we don't agree on many things as people, but you all are such beautiful "blooms" in the world's garden, I still feel so privileged to feel as if I can know you distinctly--and the fact you all have different ideas on B/A and the shows themselves suggests a rose is a rose, but might be "cereus".hee.

And that is why I can't completely bad mouth Joss. I just feel that he has a story to tell, and that HE was actually "the one" mounting BTVS--the endless details of this color and not that--has offered me a "mad chase down the rabbit hole" in so many directions of understanding, I know that "things" have meaning to mine and find!

(Probably forever. Phylogenesis is the analysis of myths that have the same components in peoples apart tin time and space and actually follow human migrations. e.g. "the cosmic hunt" or that of "Pygmalion" or women as guardians of sacred knowledge. (Which any Christian knows is true in that women are named to be there first in events of Jesus' life appearances/transformations and in many real times of persecution--yes Joan (not of ARC) was a real pope; and popes used to have wives, not mistresses--well "just").

However, for Joss, that effort nearly killed him, and he actually avoids it, taking on other projects that "flashes of ideas" suffices in writes and rewrites of someone ELSE's TV type project, with only the movies having his "vision" represented.

Thus, my bitterness toward the ATS series and "abandonment" of BTVS in the piling of manure as "real/mature" to epic heights of BTVS NOT being the heroine of her own story, but Spike COMPLETING the full thesis of the myth--but for the necklace, of course) ALL in favor of Firefly--itself so botched in airing, that fandom at least got a movie that made sense of the entire narrative...Even if I see the same repeated "world view" represented and THAT is a drag. (I will never get over my happiness in that communications planet being called "Miranda"--which is a "hairball" or "Gordian knot" hee).

So! I have to add that "feedback" for those who actually kill themselves to produce "new stuff" is where I completely fail, fall down and feel a complete hypocrite. I don't know how to do "short" and polishing an essay seems too much about me--even if "clear communication" would actually be the point of good feedback. Okay. I'm a slime slug trying to have a personal life with things like this and learning that I can't quite manage to make "useful" --known well and enough--while still flopping around in everything called a "real life"--and THAT is definitely ironic, for what is "real life" anyway?

I do understand "R.L." sucks the life out of ya, as much as it expresses our choices, so finishing "Wolfsbane"--which I did privately rec, Kairos--while doing the snowflake challenge, and everything ELSE in the monthly meme, plus a "R.L" is humorously why I also read your site, Kairos. I have zero clue how you juggle so many plates when I can't manage to say, "thanks for not skipping over the "obvious" B/A curse in your story, even if it is not the POINT of this story." ...For example....hee.

I have begun to literally look for a foreign language that isn't so fraught with myths (the same RELIGOUS ones that literally ARE the language)--no luck so far; and gender conventions that always make me feel "female is less "or has no identity without reference to the "man." Surprisingly, old English: wifman (woman) does mean woman-man, with man as "human, " while "man" was wermen, hence, wer wolf: man wolf.

So "the word" counts! hee.

Sorry you walked into that "non sequitor" brain? hee

I guess the stuff I like sounds as preachy, static, and boring as it sounds to me, instead of discussing the actual actions of these shows that make it all 'hold up" to some of you.

It's like people who accept Cangel as a great romance do have the "awkard" awakening, so many feel is the "truth" to relationships e.g. Spuffy, as well.

I see the NINA romance as that straw that broke the camel's back. One can see a kind of structure in determining if "sex' was the trigger to the curse, (Darla) or if "demonically charged" was the trigger, or if the OPPOSITE curse to that of vampires--and in actual fact ENEMIES to vampires, even if both BATS and WOLVES are always found WITH/NEAR vampires--was the trigger, but REAL care is evident in each of these relationships ; and that is why this plot line, in trying to understand Buffy's trigger, is so dangerous (and slightly selfish in not containing "the consequence" that might have happened. Well, ACTUALLY did, for those who look at the linear events as all "the continuing adventures" and as really happening *consciously *. (Versus the actual drugs and spells we so in play)

. NINA was different and that whole thing stinks because the WRITER who MARRIED this person, who is a lovely woman and great fan "stuck" this REALITY into the story--that is not in some magical place, or under a curse/spell) depresses me more than any other. Buffy meets Nina stories just can't take the pain and real stories regarding the LACK, TOTAL LACK of "meeting Connor' or the TIMING of Dawn ARE THE STORY, and thus, are "pondered in their hearts' with more depressing stuff to follow as ONLY answer.

Good for the goose is good for the gander? Not really. Buffy's curse regarding her love of Angel--seriously--put her in a hell of failures because ANGEL said to pursue these to have a balanced life. To pick a vampire does not follow, and Spike as "Okay?" REALLY? Because psychoses of the writers is actually the reach for the most clichéd trope of a DAMAGED woman and a DAMAGED man, EVER? Please see "the woman saving the monster. " (50 shades darker? Jaysus).

Let's get to the actual PATHETIC reality of this woman: My sexuality is too forbidden for anyone to understand nor condemn...who doesn't threaten my existence in this world--from big O to just take all responsibility for my own choices/life--I don't deserve to live, so PLEASE KILL ME and it's ALL YOUR FAULT).

I don't think Buffy believed Angel had such license, even without claim, since his happiness ended the world he said/she said they both were (doomed) to protect.

Also, the effort to understand the curse, makes for a leading lady/romance for the protagonist with a guy who just CAN'T pursue one, whatever David said blubbering incoherently that Angel "gets in there, you know, when you look at it, " is actually a very virile creature and "gets some." Despair driving a match up to Darla : AGAIN A VAMPIRE --"makes sense." The rest? Not so much. (David, I'm talking to you). FRED? the passion, the intellect, the babble: the attractive dark sister. AGAIN? Really? And Nina was NOT dark. She is the "earthen, empty vessel (that contains the fire?). Gee, his running up the mount(d) of "Venus," and of the water carrier (an earthen jar filled with "pouring waters" would DESTROY the fire aka "redemption"). So NINA is not a joke to me, behind the couch, a spell was one thing, but otherwise...whining about "so long since" and a stake in the drawer is funny? It just proved why Cangel and Nina are "screwed" in both NOT giving "perfect happiness" and if THEY DID!

BTW, the symbol for Venus is the MIRROR (circle= spiritual; and the equilateral cross, unlike the crucifix, below is "matter;" and is also the cross roads between life/death. Copper is her metal and was one of the first elements used to produce a mirror. Also know as "moon," making Buffy's element, as silver, also used to coat mirrors and also why Angel would not "reflect" on old style film, whatever Cordelia was forced to say re the newspaper picture, is also coated with silver, while Angel, (sun--even Hyperion is like Apollo) is gold. Dru's picture was actually made with silver called "HELIOGRAPH" and yes, helio means "sun."

I know some of you just love the Buffy story with Angel and that he would be true blue (and tattooed--as the rest goes--it means "screwed" doomed) lover. ATS doesn't work without Buffy, and I prefer the other side of the AFTER for Happily EVER is Buffy and Angel--shown or not and should be, even if against a blank screen--because that is called an IMPLIED promise. And folks, whatever myth you see, the one of Odysseus has a loyal wife, and a fighter, even as it has a happy ending in which he shares all his stories that made him more than a king, but a SUCCESSFUL HUMAN BEING.

So, take that Joss Whedon. TELL the rest of it!

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheryl
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 5:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sybil,
I am scarfing down a slice of pizza on my lunch break and have so much more to say but I wanted to at least start.

You wanna hear my absolute true feelings on this Universe? The Universe that brought me so many great friends in our shiny happy sand box?

I think Buffy season 1-3 is the best thing that has ever been created or will ever be created on television. Buffy season 1-3 has ruined me forever in that I am no longer satisfied with most of the drivel out there. Mindless, talentless garbage.

I think Buffy season 1-3 is the picture of a true hero and her Angel beside her a true equal and match. I think these two bring out the best in each other and when apart we are left with the worst, at least from Buffy.

I think Joss managed to capture lightening in a bottle with ALL these characters, their initial dynamics, etc... I think because of Buffy he is brilliant.

I also believe that Joss puts these characters through the emotions that he is feeling so in a way they become therapuetic to him. The reason Buffy is not allowed to be happy? Joss isn't allowed to be happy. The rhyme and reason behind that? I have no idea but because Joss is a real person and Buffy is not, I feel worse for him.

What I have discovered, post Buffy and Angel is that there are a few rivals for my affection floating around. Really good character driven stories and a couple of then fight Buffy for my all time favorire series. Had Buffy ended after season 3, she would win hands down but she didn't.

You might be surprised to hear my choices as they don't sound like anything that you could fall for but I have.

3rd place is Alias. Just watched for the first time and wow. Strong female lead. Nice family/gang interaction. Lots and lots of selfless actions. Good fights bad and wins. A great love story, a bittersweet ending.

2nd place is Fringe. Wow and Wow. Strong female lead. Great supportive and lovable gang. Incredible love story. Incredible family story. Good fights bad and wins. Exciting. Scary. Hilarious. Sad. It does it all. Just like Joss did in the beginning.

1st place you will find the strangest probably.
LEVERAGE

Characters are incredible. I love each and every one of them. They are bad guys gone good. Very good. They fight evil and win. They love each other, true family gang vibe just like Buffy and Angel. Love story is great.


So if you have some time, check these out. There isn't a lot to cheer about in the television world but for me, these helped heal my Buffy and Angel bitterness, sadness and feelings of loss.
More later. Very Happy
_________________
More evolved= being the one of four not elevated enough to have the title.

Irony= see above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 840

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just scanning, Cheryl! And pass the crumbs (of pizza) with the juicy you just shared. hee

Maybe it is us, the viewer, looking for something that can truly ring true, but lightening in the bottle grasps the intensity when NO element is lacking, down to their shoes and very bones. Lightening in a bottle--the plasma heat of SEEING true love SHOWN and LIVED is pretty close to filling that human endeavor to comprehend those things bigger than the self, yet not foreign to the human capacity to BE such a thing.

I love, love your list, and I "bump" you all over for my enthusiastic agreement. Don't forget "Lady Hawke" the movie! Or Princess Bride--Buffy and Angel are NOT alone in the universe and that means this story has more than a possibility, but a REALITY to human experience.

That Joss suffers guilt he can't explain is exactly where the "problem" is--and that means understanding that he does kill his father, over and over, not only because it is a shocking plot point, or justice, but because he also got the VALIDATION to write from this very man. I also think he gives power to this notion, not only from guilt, but because he can feel that same exact shock, even toaday, as if it was happening now. And THAT is why Buffy just pushing things down and away REVEALED it all, "I have and never will love anyone more than I do Angel, and I killed him."

There it is.

I have to admit, Buffy and Angel "gone to hell" together, season three, is absolutely a correct kind of thesis completion--you are right. The destruction of Buffy's truest world, to live in the world of "adulthood"--as crass, ugly, isolated as it is, but it is still life. yeah, I know you caught that "still life" as two things. Even as Angel takes his place OVER the power of evil, expressing his love and his sense of "missing her--that he WAS a half thing without her" yet he DIES and that means both Buffy and Angel "become." A soul in hell is God in hell and we both know Jesus destroyed death here before ascending to heaven, so the story goes for Angel and his "heaven" is to be the whole man Buffy sees and loves and deserves. You are right. It is a complete narrative, but the UNDERPINNING was the ODYSSEY and that has the happy ending, so I WANT IT!


I think that having his own family has dealt with a lot of his angst, but he has traded it in for a lot more that HE perpetuates...as "becoming the evil father he killed"--just as he did it to Angel and to Connor. HE MAY FEEL he is also a "cheater" in that his work takes all his personal energy and resources, from and away from "family" he doesn't think one second about to focus on work, even if NO ONE would fault him and NO working person would damn him.

I agree looking for that kind of magic couched in an understandable reality (and not merely friends, others and lovers, just doesn't show up, with a REAL STORY to make our love understand WHY we love these people and love how they love.

Joss has to like this one. Some people agree with him and might look at (the original) NIKITA and the weaker recent one (as another study in torture) as a DANGEROUS true love story and again, the man gets the normal family, as the heroine takes over what she so hated and loathed in forming her. Sound familiar?

I like season 3 ending because she also left her surrorgate family as a sign of her own * independence * not just shame and more shame and isolation and guilt regarding that family. I thank SMG for shaping Buffy in ways Joss wouldn't have because this girl was accomplished AND DIDN'T have a college education, for which HE TRIED TO SHAME HER, when she told Joss that Buffy wouldn't just hop into bed with Parker. HE said, college girls do and they experiment. Well, LUG might happen, but the intensity of her damage over Angel's perfect expressions of love to "hop into bed" because she is "terrible in bed" belies the truth of that encounter. Angel might know more "stuff" but HE was a virgin, too! HE had never been truly loved because he was unable to GIVE it (hence the awfulness of a man on one knee to his sister, in a P"roposal). I think that Angel's "fear and trembling" and "ecstatic joy were very much matched to Buffy's. Not to mention AFTER sex, he truly felt PEACE and THAT is what triggered the curse.

The truth was Buffy was far from ready, at the end of season 3 to fully develop, in such dire and duty, too; but she wasn't ready for her father to leave, either. But she does see later that she would have been a Spordelia. hee hee. I also say that Buffy does NOT give herself CREDIT for her own intuition and courage to keep taking the "next step." Joss tells us that he always "moves on"--yeah, except for the part he simply couldn't let go of Firefly until he got that story "out of him" into the world.

That he was "done' with Buffy and pulled together ATS to say what he wanted, "life is struggle, engage!" is why doing the comics is really the way he SAW Buffy as that girl who could be young, yet sad, cynical and yet trying to give the world a break, is a definition of Joss himself.

And the first "scenes" are of some equivalence and ties to two "lovers"--except the way in which SHE is positioned between them, and where she lives: making fun of "Outlander" and even "Wuthering Heights" and all other similar settings for "fairy tales" attack is on idealism and a female only world. ASSUMING in rights and place (and TOO POWERFUL) for mere mortals.

Always Angel is the desire for "pie in the sky" but also the NEED to be alone FROM the world WITH HIM. THAT is exactly what is needed to FORM A NEW FAMILY. THAT is why Spuffy gets this kind of "treatment" and "mothering"--signs of the single mom on a formative boy.

I was hopeful in season eight and "betraying herself" is what she did, but NOT AT ALL WHAT THE AUDIENECE THINKS. Joss even said, Buffy's tragedy is that she must destroy the world (and die) to be herself. THAT is the 'ACCOMPLISHMENT" HE TRIED to show with destroying Sunnydale as "end of childhood." No...it takes destroying THE WORLD, a reverse of achieving the world of TAROT--which is a Jossian flip I love. And it makes sense if death is also change.

Very smart, Cheryl to see those shows through the same kind of lens and I guess I can't stop loving Buffy because first sight, first love, true love with two people so trapped too soon (and too late) makes me want to FIGHT for them because there simply is NOTHING ELSE worth fighting for than THAT kind of love, just for it to exist, even if not for me--that's okay. THERE IT IS and that is everything to believe that is good, and right, worthy and deserves the world's assent as simple justice. (And for some of us, it is a child or for Joss, the driving need to make fully realized humans occupy the hearts and minds of other human beings, enough to actually change their ways of seeing and acting in the world--THAT is applause, even if I bet Joss wishes he also wasn't quite so CURSED to HAVE TO WRITE, as he does. Very high costs, as I said.

Need a slice--even if your generous virtual pizza is appreciated! But I still am hungry for your company. Maybe you can make a "bonnaleah list" on feautres that join those shows that captured your "recognition" of their similar powers.

So agree, I can't find ANYTHING that captured me like BTVS and B/A. My first sight, first love, true love in fandom that made me "recognize" things I had never seen (ha) and everything else just kinda pales and fails against it.

Or I should! Gotta do work, too! Sorry!

SHOOT I hate life interrupting my life. hee. Is that a delicious dream interrupted or actually "where we live"--I ask you! ha!
HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
cheryl
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
Posts: 415

PostPosted: Sat Jan 21, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sybil,
I think for me, it comes down to enjoyment at this point. My constitution is a little, actually a lot, softer than it once was. Maybe it's my age, maybe it's that I met Jesus, maybe it's that I witness gut wrenching loss in the real world through my job, maybe it's that the news and social media are full of misery, despair and hate, or maybe I'm just sick of the BS. Whatever "it" is, the tortured, doomed tragedy is not appealing to me at all.

While there is darkness in all of us, there is also light that's more powerful and prominent. Remember the girl who caught a sword coming straight for her face, eyes closed, and told that darkness what was left when everything else was gone? HER journey and her cause I could stand behind forever. Now fast forward 3 short years and watch that girl screw an evil soulless demon to punish herself or to feel something. Sad, sad and more sad. Who really needs to witness that kind of fall? I know that I didn't.

The same can be said of the evil soulless demons story, who had an amazing an believable love story of his own with Drucilla. Did we need to see him reduced to a double minded fickle lunatic in which the likes of Harmony became a believable love interest? Spike with Dru was 10 times the man soulless Spike was with Buffy. Kinder. More gentle. Less threatening. More protective.

How about Willow, who at one time was so adorable you couldn't stand it. Did we really need to see her portrayed as a crack addict bent on destroying the world? Did we really need to see Tara die?

I could go on and on but I won't. It's not necessary or helpful. Death is the most horrible aspect of this universe we live in. Speaking solely for myself, I don't need or want to experience my favorite characters drug through the ringer, emotionally crushed, over taken by darkness, etc... I want to see them unite, work together and do the impossible.
_________________
More evolved= being the one of four not elevated enough to have the title.

Irony= see above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
MissKendra
Mortal


Joined: 25 Apr 2010
Posts: 1
Location: Tacoma, WA

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 2:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey everyone! Sooo I've been lurking for years here I think. I was MissKendra over at Buffytube if anyone from there is here, I'm looking for old friends and making new ones. So excited to finally join the conversation I've been a Bangel shipper since I was 12 or so when the show first started (yeah I'm an old broad I guess lol) and will die a Bangel shipper. I'll eventually jump in when I gather some thoughts. It's nice to meet everyone!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address Yahoo Messenger
Dark Star
The Powers That Be
Admin


Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 1687
Location: England

PostPosted: Tue Jan 24, 2017 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hello MissKendra! Welcome to the forum!
_________________
~Dark Star


"Shoulder to shoulder. I'm yours."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website
bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 322

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 1:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Need a slice--even if your generous virtual pizza is appreciated! But I still am hungry for your company. Maybe you can make a "bonnaleah list" on feautres that join those shows that captured your "recognition" of their similar powers.


I was just reading the thread and saw this in your reply to Cheryl. I wasn't sure if you were asking me for a list or if you thought Cheryl and I were the same person. We aren't...but we're pretty close to it. Cheryl is my daughter, and my best friend...so where you find one of us you'll likely find the other. She actually drug me kicking and screaming into the verse...I wasn't a bit interested in her cute little show....We laugh about that now. And over the years we've had endless disscussions...for several years they were daily....so I guess that's why we are pretty cemented in the way we feel about the story.

I don't really have a list of shows or love stories that I think are comparable to Btvs or Ats. Like Cheryl I enjoyed Alias...but I was never invested in Sydney and Vaughn and in fact kept hoping she would hook up with her friend....it's been so long since I watched it that I can't even remember his name. And I loved Fringe and was happy for Peter and Olivia but Walter Bishop had my heart in that series. I enjoyed Veronica Mars enough that I've re-watched it twice, and while I really wanted Veronica and Logan together I never obsessed about it the way I did for B/A. I was pretty into Penny and Dez when I watched Lost, but there's really nothing that I just couldn't stop thinking about or wishing for.

The closest I've come to being so emotionally invested in a tv series is a very short little series called 'River". Only 6 episodes which is available on Netflix. It's not anything like Btvs...but it's emotionally powerful and moving. Maybe I'm just a sucker for the bittersweet.






Hi Miss Kendra! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kairos
Forum Gargoyle
Moderator


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1400

PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2017 2:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonnaleah wrote:
Cheryl is my daughter, and my best friend...so where you find one of us you'll likely find the other.


I didn't know that! Am I the only one who (has been around a while and) didn't know that?
_________________
But there the silver answer rang: not Death, but Love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> B/A Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
Page 2 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group