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Buffy Season 2: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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bonnaleah
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Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 322

PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 1:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch?

This episode has always been one of my least favorites and that didn't change on re-watch. I just don't feel enough sympathy for Ampata to really care about what happenened to her...and I think the ep is also missing a lot of the witty dialogue that carries an episode even when the main story is boring.



What did you think of the introduction to Oz?

For me the saving grace of the entire episode was Oz and his interest in Eskimo Willow.


Thoughts on Xander and Willow in this episode?

Xander sure falls in love quickly, lol. Every new pretty girl will turn his head while poor Willow is stuck in the best friend zone. Still, I think Xander's "friend love" for Willow is the strongest love he feels. It was certainly stronger than his love for Ampata...and it's stronger than his love for Buffy....and that's pretty cool.


What did you think of the episode's comparisons of Buffy's situation to Ampata's?

I wasn't sure if the writers intent was for the viewer to empathize with Ampata or if they were just driving home again the enormity of buffy's sacrifice. I think NKABOTFD, and Prophecy Girl have already shown us how much Buffy has had to give up.....and those ep's did a much better job. And too, the comparisons only go so far...Buffy would never kill a person instead of dying herself....Buffy has proven that she is willing to sacrifice herself so that others may live.


Angel's not in this one (boo). Did anything in this episode make you think of him or B/A?

Boo is right. An Angel scene might have put this episode on my favorite list.


Favorite lines / scenes?

Oz: Who is that girl?
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu May 18, 2017 3:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch? This episode really isn't that remarkable, but it still managed to break my heart, at least on rewatch. I feel like it really emphasizes the idea that the universe is just not going to let Buffy have her heart's desire. Ampata wants to be a normal girl, and for her that specifically means she wants to have a romantic relationship. But the nature of her situation means that she's going to suck the life out of anyone she gets close to.

And, of course, this season Buffy and Angel are going to get closer, and then Buffy is eventually going to have to kill him so that she and the world can survive. It's not selfish like Ampata sucking the life out of Xander would have been, but that's still what's going to happen. Sad

This episode is filled with pain!

2. What did you think of the introduction to Oz? At least that made me happy! Oz is a such a great addition to the show. And it was a brilliant touch to let us see him noticing Willow before he ever interacts with her.

3. Thoughts on Xander and Willow in this episode? This episode really brings the pain to Willow. That makes it hard to watch even beyond the slow plot.

bonnaleah wrote:
Still, I think Xander's "friend love" for Willow is the strongest love he feels. It was certainly stronger than his love for Ampata...and it's stronger than his love for Buffy....and that's pretty cool.


This is true, and it makes me feel a little better. Xander doesn't love Willow the way she thinks she wants, but he still really loves her.

4. What did you think of the episode's comparisons of Buffy's situation to Ampata's? This line specifically gave me B/A feels: "Who knows what she gave up to fulfill her duty to others. What chance of love?"

As bonnaleah pointed out, NKABOTFD and Prophecy Girl have already made this point (and in a less plodding way), but given what's coming in Season 2 it just hurt to hear it put so bluntly.

5. Any thoughts on Xander and Buffy's conversation at the end? Ugh, that, too, is more painful on rewatch, because the next time Buffy gives up her life and her friends bring her back, it's going to go very differently.

7. Favorite lines / scenes?

Buffy (to Giles): Oh! I know this one! Slaying entails certain sacrifices, blah, blah, bity blah, I'm so stuffy, gimme a scone.

Willow (to Xander): Why are you suddenly so worried about looking like an idiot?

Xander: Have you seen Ampata? What was that?
Willow: I shrugged.
Xander: Next time you should probably say 'shrug.'
Willow: Sigh.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Mon May 22, 2017 2:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Almost forgot! I have a fic rec that is inspired by "Inca Mummy Girl." It's an all-human AU, which I often enjoy but I know is not everyone's thing. This is very light and funny.

Culture Shock by loftyheights. Summary: "The Summers family is hosting a foreign exchange student for Cultural Month and Buffy is none too enthused. But maybe her opinion will change when she finally meets her new guest. B/A AU"

Warning, it's unfinished and abandoned but there's enough of it there in 15 chapters that it's still a satisfying read, I think. But do not read if you won't enjoy endlessly entertaining descriptions of Angel's attractiveness. Smile Smile
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue May 23, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x05 "Reptile Boy"
Written and directed by David Greenwalt
Original air date: October 13, 1997



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Buffy accompanies Cordelia to a frat party, but it's not much fun — they're offered as sacrifices to a reptilian demon."

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch?
2. There are lots of interpretations of the line "When you kiss me, I want to die." What's yours?
3. Other thoughts on B/A in this ep?
4. How did you feel about the interactions between Buffy and Giles? Were you surprised that she brought up her feelings for Angel? How did you react to Buffy's decision to lie to Giles?
5. Thoughts about Willow, especially her big outburst when she yelled at Giles and Angel?
6. Other Scooby-related comments?
7. What was your reaction to Cordelia in this ep?
8. "Angel, how do you shave?" Any theories on this? Smile
9. Favorite lines/scenes?
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bonnaleah
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Joined: 28 Jun 2010
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PostPosted: Wed May 24, 2017 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch?

Just random things I liked...

I thought the scene of a girl running from robed figures was really creepy.

Buffy and Xander braiding Willow's hair. How cute was that? I also thought Willow's attempt to explain the movie they were watching was hilarious.

And finally more B/A goodness. Buffy has dreamed of Angel 3 nights in a row....and Angel did stuff in the dream....in surround sound. So yeah, Buffy could feel his lips and smell his hair....and she isn't just dreaming of Angel, she's thinking about him a lot. This made my B/A heart happy.

There are lots of interpretations of the line "When you kiss me, I want to die." What's yours?

You know I've never been able to figure out what that line meant. The only thing I'm sure of, is that the line was meant to show how into Angel Buffy is. She is already in so deep with her feelings for him that she can't just walk away from it. I would love to know what the writer's meant by that line.

Other thoughts on B/A in this ep?

I think Angel is just as into Buffy as she is into him but he sees the big picture...and she really hasn't yet. I didn't want Angel to walk away from what they were both feeling but I think the fact that he tried to, shows what a good guy he really is.


How did you feel about the interactions between Buffy and Giles? Were you surprised that she brought up her feelings for Angel? How did you react to Buffy's decision to lie to Giles?

I loved that Buffy brought up her feelings for Angel, and Giles didn't act surprised about it so I'm guessing he already knew. I love that Giles pushed her so hard because he knows what she has to face. That was one of my favorite lines of the episode. I gave Buffy a pass for the lie.. I don't think teenagers lie constantly but I do think teens will sometimes lie to their parents in order to do what they've been told they can't. I'm thinking of the old, "I'm studying at Willow's tonight while Willow tells her mother I'm studying at Buffy's house....I think Xander calls it the round robin.

Thoughts about Willow, especially her big outburst when she yelled at Giles and Angel?

I really loved Willow standing up for Buffy the way she did. Everything she said was so perfectly spot on and it had the effect of making both Giles and Angel re-think their stances. Willow is the perfect friend.

Other Scooby-related comments?

I loved Xander in this episode. He's so brave and headstrong...and he looked so cute all duded up in his college attire. I laughed when the college boy said, "who's that dork?" And he looked so funny in the bra and wig and lipstick....you'd think he'd be so humiliated he'd go home...but no, Xander is a brave kid and he's gonna save Buffy. I liked when Angel went into game face Xander admitted...."ok, this is the guy you wanna party with.



What was your reaction to Cordelia in this ep?

Pretty much the same as always. Cordelia is all about Cordelia. When she was telling Buffy how to act at the party and what not to wear, almost everything she said was derogatory towards Buffy...and I wondered is she really so blind that she can't see the beauty and appeal of Buffy? She lives in a state of denial. Just like telling Buffy she didn't know why she let herself be talked into going to the party....when she was the one begging Buffy to go...and then throwing her arms around Angel after Buffy had saved her again. It's pretty comical now...but when I first watched I really disliked Cordelia.



Favorite lines/scenes?

I've got a couple..cause they made me laugh


Xander: Angel, Angel, Angel. Does every conversation we have have to come around to that freak? (notices Angel) Hey, man, how you doin'?


Buffy: Angel barely says two words to me.

Xander: Don't you hate that?

Buffy: And when he does, he treats me like I'm a child.

Xander: That bastard!
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu May 25, 2017 4:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch? The opening scene with Buffy, Xander and Willow is one of my favorites. I would love this episode only for that, but there are other good things, too.

bonnaleah wrote:
Buffy and Xander braiding Willow's hair. How cute was that? I also thought Willow's attempt to explain the movie they were watching was hilarious.


Xander appeared to be the better braider, too! Smile

Another thing I like about this episode is that Buffy ends up saving herself (and the other girls) in the end. Even if no one had showed up to help, I think she would have handled it. She's really not much with the damseling!

I wondered on rewatch how exactly Angel was able to get into the fraternity house!

2. There are lots of interpretations of the line "When you kiss me, I want to die." What's yours?

bonnaleah wrote:
The only thing I'm sure of, is that the line was meant to show how into Angel Buffy is. She is already in so deep with her feelings for him that she can't just walk away from it.


Definitely agree. I do get a sense of Buffy being overwhelmed by her feelings, of feeling like things have already gotten out of control.

Kairos wrote:
What she's going through right now is an understanding that her greatest desire can never be, and it hurts her badly, and every kiss is a reminder of it.


I also liked Kairos' interpretation over in the other rewatch thread.

I like this scene a lot, even though it makes me uncomfortable. Maybe because it makes me uncomfortable. I really get into the emotion of it.

3. Other thoughts on B/A in this ep?

I like how it doesn't take much more than Angel finally getting on board with the coffee idea for them to basically officially become a couple. I feel like from "Halloween" on out, they're just together. But not surprising, given that we know they're already in deep.

4. How did you feel about the interactions between Buffy and Giles? Were you surprised that she brought up her feelings for Angel? How did you react to Buffy's decision to lie to Giles? I actually was surprised when Buffy told Giles that it was more difficult for her to stake vampires because of Angel. Not so much because she was telling Giles, which I think was sweet, but just because I hadn't really spent much time thinking about it affecting her that way.

As for the lying, I understood it. Inventing a fake illness for her mom was really bringing out the big guns, I thought, so it was a clear signal of how badly she was feeling the pressure. But I adored Willow's reaction, and how she went to help Giles.

5. Thoughts about Willow, especially her big outburst when she yelled at Giles and Angel? Willow is amazing. I wish she would stand up for herself sometimes the way she can for others, especially when Xander is acting clueless about her feelings. Giles and Angel definitely listened to what she had to say and followed her recommendations. They clearly respect her.

7. What was your reaction to Cordelia in this ep? I thought she was acting weirder than usual, but I guess it was the influence of "Doctor Debbi" and all the fake laughing. What I LOVED was how she told Buffy not to wear black to the party, and so of course Buffy wore black.

8. "Angel, how do you shave?" Any theories on this? I assume he can shave by feel or something. But what about cutting his hair? Maybe Willy also owns a demon barber shop along with his bar?

9. Favorite lines/scenes?

Xander: Okay, boots, start a-walking.


Xander: I'm goin' to the party.
Willow: What?
Xander: I gotta keep an eye on Buffy. Those frat guys creep me.
Willow: You wanna protect her?
Xander: Mm-hm.
Willow: And prove that you're just as good as those rich, snotty guys?
Xander: Mm-hm.
Willow: Maybe catch an orgy?
Xander: If it's on early.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x06 Halloween
Written by Carl Ellsworth
Directed by Bruce Seth Green
Original air date: October 27, 1997



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Someone from Giles' past wreaks havoc on Halloween, causing Buffy and the gang to be transformed into their costumes."

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch?
2. What did you think of Angel and Buffy's date misfire (and Cordelia's taking advantage of that) at the Bronze?
3. Any thoughts on Willow and Buffy's conversation about Angel's past and their stealing of the Watcher's diaries?
4. Both Willow and Xander seem very confident that Angel is not interested in Cordelia. ("Angel would never fall for her act." ... "Give it up, Cordy. You're never going to get between those two.") Any reaction to that, especially on rewatch?
5. Spike and Dru are back! Any thoughts on them in this episode?
6. Anything you particularly liked or disliked about the Scoobies becoming their costumes?
7. What did you think of our introduction to Ethan Rayne, and learning there's more to Giles' past?
8. Other thoughts on B/A in this ep, including the scene at the end?
9. Favorite lines/moments?
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2017 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch?

There's so much to like about this episode that I don't know what, or who to mention first...Guess I'll start with Spike.


This is Spike's 2nd appearance in the verse and his 2nd attempt to kill Buffy. He's pretty serious about it since he had his vampire friend record Buffy fighting and dusting another vampire....so he could rewind and watch it over and over. Funny how he likes to pretend that he enjoys a good fight...and that it's all about the dance... when he was perfectly overjoyed with the chance of killing Buffy while she was in a weakened state. It's very clear that Spike is totally devoted to Drusilla and that he wants to kill Buffy so that Drusilla can have free reign over Sunnydale, and get all her strength back. He loves Dru eyeballs to entrails. He obviously didn't get the memo about how he is supposed to be so attracted to Buffy, lol. Spike was going for the kill and the only thing that saved Buffy was the spell being broken.

Drusilla continues to fascinate me. I'm intrigued by the crazy way she talks and with how she knows of future events. She seems so fragile and vulnerable but Juliet portrays her in such a way that there's an evilness that shines through too. I was always more interested in Dru than I ever was in Darla and I wish her character had been used more than it was.

So Giles...or should I say bad ass Giles. What a surprise that was. We're so used to seeing him be knocked around by Buffy while training...or stuttering in bewilderment that it was pretty exciting to see that Giles has a hidden side that can be tough and dangerous. I loved it.

Willow and Buffy were so cute while plotting to get a hold of the Watcher's diaries. I loved the way Buffy said, "most importantly, it would be wrong". Sure didn't stop them though...and Giles being manipulated by Buffy was so cute. His interest in what Jenny had said was adorable. He was so pleased that Jenny thought he was a babe....whether she really said it or not I'm in complete agreement. Giles is a burning hunk of babeness in my book.

And again Willow is the perfect friend when Buffy is feeling inferior to the girl pictured in the watcher diary. "She's like a freak, a circus freak". Too funny.

I love that Xander was gonna do something damn manly to protect Buffy's honor....I'm in my love phase with Xander now. I liked how Xander was giving his group of kids pointers on how to get more candy. None of them wanted to escort these kids but they were all pretty good natured about it and seemed to like the little kids. Xander saying that he preferred his women in spandex could have been a little forshadowy since Cordelia had the spandex cat suit on... and Cordelia seemed pleasantly surprised when Xander put his jacket around her shoulders. Also very cool how Xander took charge and knew what to do to keep everyone safe.

Cordelia was in typical form trying to move in on Angel at the Bronze, and then later trying to make Buffy believe that she could take him from her. Made it that much more satisfying when Angel only had eyes for Buffy and Xander told her to forget it... she was never gonna get between Buffy and Angel. Pretty funny how Cordelia didn't believe that Angel was a vampire and thinks it's just a thing that Buffy thinks. I'm not sure if she knows it's the truth by the end of the ep or not. I can't remember if she saw Angel in game face, but I'm thinking she didn't. Watching her in this episode it ran through my mind that I was amazed I ever ended up liking her character. The power of good writing I guess.


Well Buffy and Angel went from coffee to date pretty quickly. Reptile boy was Oct 10 and by halloween they are using the date word. Angel seems to have thrown all his reservations out the window and they seem like an established couple now. Angel actually smiled a couple of times this episode.....which was kinda different. He's so pretty when he smiles. I'm not sure we'll see him smile again until Angelus.

I liked ghost Willow and how shook Giles was when she came in through the wall. Also thought it was cool that Xander got to pummel Larry after rescuing Buffy.
Really loved Oz once again noticing Willow...."who is that girl.



What did you think of Angel and Buffy's date misfire (and Cordelia's taking advantage of that) at the Bronze?

I think Buffy with straw in her hair was more appealing to Angel than perfectly coiffed Cordelia was. Angel told her the minute she sat down that he was waiting for Buffy, and the second he saw Buffy he headed towards her without a backwards glance at Cordy. I think Angel seemed disappointed that Buffy left...and I think he was telling the truth when he said Buffy looked fine. It's more than clear to me that Angel had no interest whatsoever in Cordelia, and that he was just being polite.

Any thoughts on Willow and Buffy's conversation about Angel's past and their stealing of the Watcher's diaries?

I guess it would be pretty normal to wonder how you'd measure up to the girls Angel would have known while he was human, so I thought it was normal curiosity and normal girl talk.

. Both Willow and Xander seem very confident that Angel is not interested in Cordelia. ("Angel would never fall for her act." ... "Give it up, Cordy. You're never going to get between those two.") Any reaction to that, especially on rewatch?

I think both Xander and Willow were spot on and nothing on rewatch or on ATS has changed my mind. Cordelia actually quit trying to get between Buffy and Angel on BTVS....not that she ever could have....and over on Ats there was no Buffy and Angel to get between. What there was, was Skip and Jasmine manipulating events, and that puts a great big question mark around anything even remotely C/A. I feel the same way about C/A as I do S/B. Until Buffy and Angel are given real, "everything being equal choices" their choices mean nothing.

Other thoughts on B/A in this ep, including the scene at the end?

I loved how they both seemed so cozy and comfortable. Angel waiting in Buffy's bedroom and on her bed no less while she changes into her regular clothes. They've come a long way in a very short time or else Angel would have been waiting downstairs in the living room, don't ya think? I loved their playful banter with each other and how Angel reassured her that she is what he's attracted to...and of course the smoochie's topping it all off.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed May 31, 2017 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Anything stand out on rewatch? Yay, Ethan Rayne! I can't help loving that guy. I love when he says, "Chaos. I remain, as ever, thy faithful, degenerate son."

sybil, if you're around at all, I would love to hear more about Janus and what, if any, relevance you think he has to the broader themes of Season 2. Giles talks about the division of self, "male and female, light and dark." And Dru says, "Everything's switching. Outside to inside." It seems important that this episode and imagery come right before Lie to Me, which is a big turning point in the tone of the show, so I'd love your thoughts!

2. What did you think of Angel and Buffy's date misfire (and Cordelia's taking advantage of that) at the Bronze?

bonnaleah wrote:
It's more than clear to me that Angel had no interest whatsoever in Cordelia, and that he was just being polite.


Yeah, I felt like, even when he was laughing, he still kinda had that deer-in-the-headlights look that he had when Cordelia forced him to accompany her home in Some Assembly Required. It seemed like he just didn't know what else to do.

I just looked up the script because I was curious about how it was written:


Quote:
CORDELIA
I'm supposed to be meeting Devon, but he's nowhere to be seen. It's like he thinks being in a band gives him an obligation to be a flake. Well, his loss is your incredible gain...

She drones on. Angel isn't thrilled, smiles thinly.

ON BUFFY

Who enters, looking a little sheepish. She's worked from the pumpkin patch episode. Runs her fingers through her hair, pulling seeds and bits of pumpkin muck from it. She sees -

ANGEL & CORDELIA

At the table. Cordelia says something. Laughs. Angel shakes his head - finally laughs, too. Maybe at her. Maybe not. Cordelia looks radiant - in full flirt mode.


So, a not-thrilled Angel. And, ha, I guess Buffy originally had more than a little straw in her hair.

3. Any thoughts on Willow and Buffy's conversation about Angel's past and their stealing of the Watcher's diaries? This whole section, from Willow and Buffy's conversation in the lounge through their scene sitting on the sinks in the bathroom is my favorite part of the episode. I love when they are partners in crime.

I think Joss completely rewrote the script for this episode, because Carl Ellsworth got fired after turning in his version (as The Passion of the Nerd episode guide notes).

There were some particular turns of phrase in the lounge scene that caught my ears. Buffy saying, "It would be wrong" reminded me of Faith's mirror scene in Who Are You. And when Willow says she's sure the Watcher's Diaries are "full of fun facts to know and tell," it sounds so much like when Buffy tells Angel in Helpless that "Sonnets from the Portuguese" is "full of neat words to learn and say."

4. Both Willow and Xander seem very confident that Angel is not interested in Cordelia. ("Angel would never fall for her act." ... "Give it up, Cordy. You're never going to get between those two.") Any reaction to that, especially on rewatch? I agree with bonnaleah, of course, that they were spot on.

I did feel a little sympathy for Cordelia, though, when she said, "Look, Buffy, you may be hot stuff when it comes to demonology or whatever, but when it comes to dating, I'm the Slayer." She was being a bitca, but a hell of a lot of her love interests have been or will be injured or die, which makes it actually kinda sad. It's also just not true on the face of it, either. She's popular, sure, but Devon JUST stood her up at the Bronze, and she couldn't get Angel to pay attention to her no matter how she tried.

I know the running theme is that Cordelia on the inside is the same as Cordelia on the outside (as we see in Earshot), so it made sense that she wouldn't change with the spell (and of course, plot-wise it was because she got her costume elsewhere), but I also kind of wished we'd gotten to see another side of her, too.

5. Spike and Dru are back! Any thoughts on them in this episode?

bonnaleah wrote:
Funny how he likes to pretend that he enjoys a good fight...and that it's all about the dance... when he was perfectly overjoyed with the chance of killing Buffy while she was in a weakened state.


Ha. I didn't think about this, but you're totally right.

I also thought it was interesting that in School Hard, Buffy's mom stepped in to help her against Spike at the end, and in this episode, Giles, Buffy's father figure, was vital to her fight against Spike by breaking the spell.

6. Anything you particularly liked or disliked about the Scoobies becoming their costumes? I liked that Joss reused the "cars are demons" joke in "Spin the Bottle" with Angel-as-Liam. Cute callback.

But, in general, I didn't like the way "18th century" Buffy was portrayed and was glad when it was over. Ghost Willow was a total treat, though.

(Side note: Kairos, if you happen to see this, did you continue to post post-Halloween episode analyses on your LJ or elsewhere, or do they end with the other rewatch thread? I hope not, because I loved reading them! You explained so perfectly in your Halloween recap why I like but do not love this episode.)

7. What did you think of our introduction to Ethan Rayne, and learning there's more to Giles' past? I'm already on record as loving Ethan. But I did want to pause to agree heartily with bonnaleah here:
Quote:
Giles is a burning hunk of babeness in my book.


8. Other thoughts on B/A in this ep, including the scene at the end? This episode and the scene at the end especially make for an interesting contrast to Helpless. Here, Buffy is thinking that being a "fancy girl" would be attractive to Angel, but she is reassured that he likes her the way she is. So then, I guess it makes sense that Buffy would later be worried about Angel finding her boring if she loses her powers, given that her slayerness seemed to be part of her appeal to him. But that's not really what he means, of course. (It's also kind of cute that Buffy feels uneasy about the contrast between herself and the more coiffed Cordelia in Halloween, worrying that Angel might prefer the polish, and then Buffy uses Cordelia, ahem, I mean, Spordelia as an example of someone she knows Angel would definitely not prefer in Helpless.)

9. Favorite lines/moments?
The way Snyder holds out the pens to Willow and Xander.
Buffy and Willow's faces in the library window.
Willow's LOOK when Buffy tells Giles that Ms. Calendar called him a babe.

"Do the demons just hate how commercial it's become?"
"Oh, he's a vampire. Of course. But the cuddly kind. Like a Care Bear with fangs?"
"Lady of Buffdom, Duchess of Buffonia, I am in awe."
"She couldn't have dressed up like Xena?"
"Surely he'll not desert us?" / "Whatever."
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 01, 2017 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:

(Side note: Kairos, if you happen to see this, did you continue to post post-Halloween episode analyses on your LJ or elsewhere, or do they end with the other rewatch thread? I hope not, because I loved reading them! You explained so perfectly in your Halloween recap why I like but do not love this episode.)


To speak my name is to summon me, but sadly, this is where my rewatch posts ended. I've tried to get going again (and actually did, last year, but only to fill in my gaps from Season 1, and even prematurely lost my steam for that), but for some reason I'm completely unable to get into the Buffy headspace right now. I'm overflowing with ideas for fics in other fandoms but can't even seem to make myself watch an episode of Buffy.

I love what you guys are doing here and I'm so glad you enjoyed my old recaps, but I think my current lurker status is going to hold for a while. Confused

Don't want to hijack your thread here so off I go!
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 1:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the response, Kairos! I'll miss reading your recaps, but I understand.

And to tie it back to this thread, I'll probably start doing some script comparison myself and share any highlights I find going forward.
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sybil
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 2:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I tend to find the cloud of my thoughts regarding the notion of “avatars” for the stories of Buffy and Angel, as both the “story” Joss was actually telling—and I hate it—but also it provides reason for the story to “never end.” Hence my passionate love is silenced.

After all, the unconscious and the barely accessible subconscious—with training!—may be all the stimuli we don’t notice about the possible reality of the world in both space and time—and yes, it is “where” the rise of god “comes from.” (Yeah, “connection,” or complete consciousness, as described in that “union of opposites.” However, that “big stuff” is hardly useful to an accessible or linear story—and I fully support the wonderful “fairy tale” structure—also using (global, positive) myths—in “the implied promise” : “and they lived happily ever after.” Notice the word “after.” (All the “terrible” of their learning and transformations of “becoming” into “normal” adulthood, with the “journey” about the nature of come-passion (with passion) to their own assessments of self, the world, the self in the world: their (complex) humanity)

Janus is a Roman God, of Beginning and *TRANSITIONS * (not exactly endings); Gates and Doors. (The Guardian of the Gate that Buffy both crashed; and who also protected “the key” (Dawn: renewal) to “the gates”—and that is indeed “virginity” among many other meanings; which, my dear people here, is the “key” to “undoing the curse” and yes, all the gender flipping of “male” to “female” –but also active female principle, with the opposite in Angel, the passive male principle). So, yeah. Like Fairy tales:

BRING ON THE THIRD DEATH!!!

Janus is depicted as having two faces, since he looks to the future and to the past. The Roman month of January (Ianuarius) was named in his honor. He also presided over duality, peace and war—his temple doors were open in war, and closed in peace—passages—and yes, that includes “the birth channel”, and time—which is why the paradoxical “forever moment” means specifically NO TIME. That is B/A.

January 1 was new year day: the day was consecrated to Janus since it was the first of the new year and of the month (kalends) of Janus. Offerings of dates, figs, honey, coins, Cakes and salt were made to the god and burnt on the altar.

(! Each offering has specific meaning, powers, but I am always happy with “salt.” In King Lear, “the cursed daughter described her love for her father as “salt”—the savory for taste and preserving “meat,” and needed for life itself.”

In B/A Two chemical poisons: one “earth” and one “air” as describes Buffy, put in union, a perfectly “pure” (empty of light—Joss always flips things!—and thus “white” crystal) makes food “savory” and life “sweet”; it is required for HUMAN life). Buffy is
on the cusp of Capricorn (sacrificial ram) and Aquarius, “carries her own water,” but pours “her love”/life upon the earth. (She is “Potidan” goddess of mountain and sea and the journey “both ways.”)

Angel’s “story” is more complex in that he was born/died “twice” to begin the story and spends his life seeking peace, but always moving through “passages” of one hell or another in endless war, clueless to “the warrior” who is at peace in the midst of chaos. Can’t imagine why….

His birthday is cusp of Leo/Virgo (fire and earth—hence, no small wonder he needs both “air”and the “water” Buffy offers). It is funny that “fire” is given to Buffy and Angel’s is “scorched earth.” (ash—even as Nina hands him an “empty vessel”—a clay vase). His place as “herald”—to include the “missing fire and water” TO Buffy, is end of November (and why dark sister Faith’s birthday is cusp Scorpio (water) and Sagittarius (fire); while his “death” is Christmas (notice the dead “evergreen” on BTVS Christmas) for he is INDEED the Oak King (beginning in JUNE at Solstice—which is about JUNO, who actually “once upon a time” (Greek) was the goddess involved regarding Janus).

. This look into the past and the future, is really about a “flip: aka “fate.” And that is why Angel is a vampire: he is “stuck.” (And now, sigh, so is Buffy). And, no, some declaration of “life is pain” or “struggle forever” or worse for Angel, atheistic existentialism—for this character who *remains * a vampire—is incongruous and not the cure to the curse SHARED by Buffy and Angel. Jeez.

I might mention Hawthorn is (now) and thus, the May Queen—see Cordelia. (A dark sister to Buffy and to Angel, and “why” she just “had” to be a “visionary.” e.g. Janus: FATE).

And yes, that means there is only one story here: the face of Love, which is why there is only B/A.

(The “dark” was shown in the madness of Angelus—Spuffy just fails…so utterly—and jakers would a year of * that * “suck” the life out of you? Buffy is everything to both Angel and Angelus, one of love and one of hate, but that story of “transition” as an equal shock was shown in season eight—and BUFFY screwed up for ALL. (Paradise was “up” the direction of “hell” and that means “one is god by creating one’s own reality” and the “transition” for both “becoming” “normal” is (adulthood—at the cost of the destruction of the “childhood” world) is right here on planet earth for it IS heaven and hell). Sigh.

Which is why, not “just” Janus, but “this:”

http://www.thaliatook.com/OGOD/cardea.php

This is wiki; but I think it is a confusing article.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardea

And this is why I don’t post, I have NO IDEA what I just said that is relevant to anything—I’m sorry but RL is kicking my a$$--way too much “Janus.”

Be well
sybil
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 02, 2017 9:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:
And this is why I don’t post, I have NO IDEA what I just said that is relevant to anything—I’m sorry but RL is kicking my a$$--way too much “Janus.”


Sorry! Next time, just ignore me! Embarassed But I really enjoyed your post!

sybil wrote:
Janus is a Roman God, of Beginning and *TRANSITIONS * (not exactly endings); Gates and Doors. (The Guardian of the Gate that Buffy both crashed; and who also protected “the key” (Dawn: renewal) to “the gates”—and that is indeed “virginity” among many other meanings; which, my dear people here, is the “key” to “undoing the curse” and yes, all the gender flipping of “male” to “female” –but also active female principle, with the opposite in Angel, the passive male principle).


This is brilliant! I love how well it all fits together. It's beautiful, really.

sybil wrote:
I might mention Hawthorn is (now) and thus, the May Queen—see Cordelia. (A dark sister to Buffy and to Angel, and “why” she just “had” to be a “visionary.” e.g. Janus: FATE). 


I know I will be thinking about this as I watch Cordelia's story unfold this time around. It's interesting that the piece you link to talks about Cardea using hawthorn to protect babies from blood-suckers -- and, of course, for poor Connor the threat was not from vampires.

sybil wrote:
However, that “big stuff” is hardly useful to an accessible or linear story—and I fully support the wonderful “fairy tale” structure—also using (global, positive) myths—in “the implied promise” : “and they lived happily ever after.” Notice the word “after.” (All the “terrible” of their learning and transformations of “becoming” into “normal” adulthood, with the “journey” about the nature of come-passion (with passion) to their own assessments of self, the world, the self in the world: their (complex) humanity)


Yes, if only... Sigh.
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 2:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:
Thanks for the response, Kairos! I'll miss reading your recaps, but I understand.

And to tie it back to this thread, I'll probably start doing some script comparison myself and share any highlights I find going forward.


Oh man, do you know anywhere you can find them these days? It looks like Buffyworld is gone for good.

(...Huge, terrible loss.)
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 03, 2017 4:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kairos wrote:
It looks like Buffyworld is gone for good.


I haven't had any problems accessing the Buffyworld scripts and transcripts. I always just Google for them and so I didn't even know the homepage was down. For now, at least, I can still get to the scripts, transcripts and season landing pages.

(I also will admit to having riskily downloaded the available shooting scripts for BtVS and AtS from this site, because I wanted to see the unaired pilot script with Angel on the motorcycle. I posted a couple of excerpts in the S1 rewatch thread. I haven't really used them otherwise yet, but they mostly seem to be the same scripts from Buffyworld, at least for BtVS.)
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