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Buffy Season 2: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 5:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x07 Lie to Me
Written and directed by Joss Whedon
Original air date: November 3, 1997



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Buffy's childhood crush comes to town, but he's not looking to reminisce — he's looking for immortality as a vampire."

1. Overall thoughts about this episode?
2. How did you react to Angel and Dru's interaction?
3. Buffy tells Angel she loves him for the first time, but it's not a very happy moment. What was your reaction to that scene?
4. How did you like Angel teaming up with Willow and then Xander, too?
5. Any thoughts on the vampire wannabes and our introduction to Chanterelle/Lily/Anne?
6. How did you feel about Ford's story and Buffy's responses to him?
7. Anything stand out to you on rewatch?
8. Favorite lines/scenes?


Last edited by Grace Newman on Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:08 pm; edited 1 time in total
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 06, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts about this episode?

I guess trust is the main theme of the episode. Giles is asked to trust Jenny about their date. Ford must trust Spike to turn him...all the wannabes actually. Buffy has to decide if she will trust Angel...and I guess Spike must trust that Ford isn't laying a trap.

That opening scene with Drusilla and the little boy was seriously creepy. What will your mummy sing when they find your body? I was afraid for the little guy and so happy when Angel showed up and saved him. I also couldn't help from thinking that the adults in this kids life were pretty lousy to let him wait alone in the dark for his ride. Where I come from the other kids parents would never let that happen.

Interesting that Buffy didn't realize Drusilla was a vampire until she saw Dru's picture and learned of her connection to Spike. Interesting too that it was Willow who first wondered if Dru could be a vampire. I guess at 16 Buffy's vampire radar hadn't fully kicked in yet and it reminded me of Giles telling Buffy in WTTH that she should be able to detect vampires without looking or thinking...that she should just know. I think maybe her feelings for Angel got in the way of her slayer sense, and her "just a girl" sense
took over.

Buffy was so shocked to see Angel talking intimately with a beautiful woman and she felt betrayed, jealous, and mistrustful of her own relationship with Angel. When Giles gave her the night off and said she could spend some time with Angel, she replied that he might have other plans. Too bad that Angel lied but I kinda understand why Angel didn't want to get into the whole Drusilla thing with her if he could avoid it. I think you can tell by Angel's reaction to Drusilla asking him if he would hurt her if she refused to leave town, that he still feels enormous guilt about what Angelus did to Drusilla, and I think that guilt is what has prevented him from killing her...and is the reason he gives her a chance to leave town.

Spike and Drusilla together are fantastic and add so much to the series. I just love these two so much. That scene with the dead bird has to be one of my very favorite scenes.
I love how Spike is so impatient with Dru until he realizes he has hurt her feelings and then just turns on a dime to apologize and try to comfort her. Even offering a new bird.

How did you react to Angel and Dru's interaction?

In their scene together we don't yet know that Angel is Dru's sire, but I think it's clear from Angel's actions that he doesn't want to have to hurt Drusilla. I mean she was gonna kill that little boy and he still let her go...so we know that there's more between them....we just don't know what until he confesses to Buffy. Then the scene makes perfect sense. Angel feels responsible for Dru and also so guilty.

Buffy tells Angel she loves him for the first time, but it's not a very happy moment. What was your reaction to that scene?

I love every B/A scene. Angel wanted to make sure Buffy loved him before he told her what Angelus did to Drusilla....and she did. I wonder if he would have told her everything if she had said she didn't know if she loved him or not. It had to be hard for him to tell Buffy all the horrible things Angelus had done to Drusilla...he had to be worried that it might change the way she felt about him...and I guess getting her to admit her love first added a comfort level to what he about to confess. I'm so glad Angel came clean and told Buffy the uncensored truth....and I'm so happy that it didn't change Buffy's feelings for Angel.


How did you like Angel teaming up with Willow and then Xander, too?

I loved it. But Angel's makeup when he was in Willows room was kinda ridiculous with the ruby red lips and extremely pale skin. They took a gorgeous guy and made him look
silly. I'm so glad they didn't stick with that look. I'm impressed that in spite of the way Xander feels about Angel, he is able to let it all go when they are working together. They even manage to treat each other decently.




Any thoughts on the vampire wannabes and our introduction to Chanterelle/Lily/Anne?

This idea that the wannabes and Ford have, about how they are going to be immortal and forever young is once again shown to be untrue. The mythology of the verse remains the same.

Buffy: Well, I've got a news flash for you, braintrust: that's not how it works. You die, and a demon sets up shop in your old house, and it walks, and it talks, and it remembers your life, but it's not you.

So Ford and Chanterelle and the others were not going to live on.....the were all going to die and their souls were going to separate from their bodies before the demon moved in.
Angel: When you become a vampire the demon takes your body, but it doesn't get your soul.


They wouldn't be Ford or Chanterelle any more than Jesse was still Jesse.....
Giles: You listen to me! Jesse is dead! You have to remember that when you see him, you're not looking at your friend. You're looking at the thing that killed him.



How did you feel about Ford's story and Buffy's responses to him?

I was done with Ford the minute he offered her to Spike....so his story didn't make me suddenly care about him. Ford didn't want to die but he was basically sacrificing all of the wannabes as well as Buffy so I couldn't bring myself to care what happened to him.


8. Favorite lines/scenes?

Well probably the universal favorite...

Giles: The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we
always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Overall thoughts about this episode? This is one of my personal favorites. I love the atmosphere and tone, starting with that playground scene!

bonnaleah wrote:
I guess trust is the main theme of the episode. Giles is asked to trust Jenny about their date. Ford must trust Spike to turn him...all the wannabes actually. Buffy has to decide if she will trust Angel...and I guess Spike must trust that Ford isn't laying a trap.


Yes, I love how Joss layered in so many secrets and lies in this episode, both good and bad, significant and trivial. I also like how, from Buffy's perspective, the episode is about deciding who to trust even if they are not always honest with you. Basically everyone lies to Buffy in this episode, either directly or by omission (Angel, Willow, Xander, Ford, Giles -- though, to be fair, Giles was lying with Buffy's permission!).

bonnaleah wrote:
Spike and Drusilla together are fantastic and add so much to the series. I just love these two so much. That scene with the dead bird has to be one of my very favorite scenes.
I love how Spike is so impatient with Dru until he realizes he has hurt her feelings and then just turns on a dime to apologize and try to comfort her. Even offering a new bird.


Totally agree with this. You can't tear your eyes away from them. When Dru says, "My tummy was growly," it's both adorable and utterly creepy (since, y'know, it led her to go hunt for a child). I also love that we see Spike getting miffed about Angel so early on.

2. How did you react to Angel and Dru's interaction? I noticed on rewatch that Drusilla calls him "my dear boy," which I always thought was what Darla called him, but I did a quick search of transcripts and couldn't find Darla referring to him that way in BtVS Season 1 or AtS Season 2. Maybe I just overlooked it. It's of course the name of the AtS episode where we see flashbacks to Angelus first encountering and torturing Dru.

bonnaleah wrote:
In their scene together we don't yet know that Angel is Dru's sire, but I think it's clear from Angel's actions that he doesn't want to have to hurt Drusilla. I mean she was gonna kill that little boy and he still let her go...so we know that there's more between them....we just don't know what until he confesses to Buffy. Then the scene makes perfect sense. Angel feels responsible for Dru and also so guilty.


Since at this point, we don't know that Angel didn't actually sire Spike, it's interesting that his reaction is so different to the two of them. I guess it's just evidence that Joss already had it that way in his head. While mentally torturing Dru and then turning her was definitely worse than just turning William the poet, you would have thought that Angel would still have felt bad about that if he had been the one to sire Spike, given all the damage Spike has done. Then again, even if Angel HAD felt guilt over siring Spike, the minute Buffy's in danger the calculation changes.

3. Buffy tells Angel she loves him for the first time, but it's not a very happy moment. What was your reaction to that scene? I really like the way Joss framed that scene -- I love that it happens in Buffy's house and what she's wearing, that soft sweater with so much exposure of her neck. It's such a great contrast to have this dark story told in a cozy environment where Buffy feels safe. She's let Angel into her heart and home, but she doesn't know everything about him yet.

bonnaleah wrote:
I'm so glad Angel came clean and told Buffy the uncensored truth....and I'm so happy that it didn't change Buffy's feelings for Angel.


Agreed. I'm not sure I believe Buffy when she says, "I don't know if I trust you." I think on some level she's trusted him at least since she offered him her neck in "Angel." But, then again, I guess she likely means that she doesn't know if she trusts that he won't hurt her romantically.

6. How did you feel about Ford's story and Buffy's responses to him? I've been thinking a lot about Ford and it's got me wondering what he really expected the outcome to be. It comes up several times that he's imagining his life as a movie, and this whole plot of his is intentionally cinematic. But, of course, he had to know, then, that in a movie, the bad guy rarely wins, and he was, as Buffy says, casting himself as the villain of the piece. I wonder if his betrayal of Buffy never felt real to him because in some way he always expected the hero to ultimately triumph. A kind of suicide-by-slayer thing.

On the face of it, though, Ford definitely appeared to be more evil than Spike himself. Ford was willing to sacrifice Buffy's life (and others) for his own ends, while Spike was not willing to give up Dru in his quest to kill the slayer. Spike really isn't your traditional vampire. There's a great contrast later in "The Trial" on AtS when we see Darla abandoning Angelus to Holtz and a mob while she escapes.

8. Favorite lines/scenes?

Ford: Oh. I thought you were just slaying a vampire.
Buffy: What? Whating a what?
Ford: I know, Buffy. You don't have to lie.

Xander: Angel was in your bedroom?
Willow: Ours is a forbidden love.

Giles: A book! It took one of my books!

Buffy: You have a choice. You don't have a good choice, but you have a choice!

And, of course:
bonnaleah wrote:
Well probably the universal favorite...

Giles: The good guys are always stalwart and true, the bad guys are easily distinguished by their pointy horns or black hats, and, uh, we
always defeat them and save the day. No one ever dies, and everybody lives happily ever after.



I did take a look at the shooting script for this episode, and it was pretty similar to what aired. A few things to note.

While I did love Giles showing he learned from "Reptile Boy" and suggesting Buffy take a night off, I was surprised that he suggested spending time with Angel so readily (though I liked it!). This, from the script, is more how I would have imagined the conversation would go. I'm glad it was changed, though, because it's nice for characters to surprise you!

Quote:
GILES
Yes, even I realize a young person like yourself can't spend all her time fighting the forces of darkness. No slaying this evening. Perhaps you can concentrate on your homework instead.

She peers at him

BUFFY
Do they know about "fun" in England?

GILES
Yes, but's considered very poor taste to have any. Very well. Do whatever it is you like. You could spend some time with Angel.

BUFFY
I don't know. He might have other plans.


This is interesting, given Buffy's name choice in "Tabula Rasa":
Quote:
A slinky goth girl, CHANTARELLE (formerly Joan), glides up to the boys with a couple of goblets.


We don't really learn anything we don't already know in this scene, and it's a bit too on the nose ("one minute you're a kid, living in your safe kid world, and then - truth hits you in the face"), so I think it was a good choice for cuts. But it's still kind of nice to see it all spelled out like this.

Quote:
EXT. SCHOOL - FOUNTAIN QUAD - DAY

Buffy and Ford are sitting and talking.

BUFFY
And then everything was Vampires. I slacked utterly in school -- and my social life pretty much dried up and blew away.

FORD
You made quite a hit at the prom.

BUFFY
Oh, God, the prom. What a disaster.

FORD
Wasn't dull, though. Watching the gym go up in flames… it was like a movie. Life isn't nearly enough like a movie, don't you think?

BUFFY
I think that was the worst night of my life.

FORD
You saved a lot of people's lives. I know it - I bet there's others who do too.

BUFFY
It's good to hear. And it's good to be able to talk to someone who knows. Who knew me before, and… well. During.

FORD
You know, one minute you're a kid, living in your safe kid world, and then - truth hits you in the face. Vampires. I'll never forget that night

BELL RINGS. They get up and head inside.

BUFFY
Most everybody else did.

FORD
What's with that? Nobody would say a word.

BUFFY
People ignore truths they don't like.

Cordelia comes up to them, all smiles.

CORDELIA
Buffy, you haven't introduced me to your new friend.

BUFFY
Yeah, isn't that weird?

She blows by her, Ford in tow.

FORD
Who was that?

BUFFY
A truth I like to ignore.


And another small Cordelia scene that got cut, interesting to me purely because it shows that she took Xander's advice to give up on Angel in "Halloween."

Quote:
CORDELIA
Come on, can't you tell me anything about him?

WILLOW
Why are you so interested in Ford?

CORDELIA
In case you haven't noticed there is a devastating cute guy shortage right now. The government is calling for rationing so why does Buffy get to hoard them all? She has Angel. So come on, what's Ford interested in?

XANDER
Vampires.

CORDELIA
(deflated)
oh great. That's Buffy's best subject. You sure he doesn't like clothes?


And, one final note, this line would have been a dead fish had they left that part in!

Quote:
BUFFY
You have a choice. You don't have a good choice: what's behind door number three is pretty much a dead fish but you have a choice. You're opting for mass murder here and nothing you say to me is gonna make that okay.


Last edited by Grace Newman on Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:05 am; edited 1 time in total
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 3:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forgot to mention! If you haven't seen it, the Passion of the Nerd video on "Lie to Me" is particularly good. https://youtu.be/KiJ7Kscpyks
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x08 "The Dark Age"
Written by Dean Batali and Rob Des Hotel
Directed by Bruce Seth Green
Original air date: November 10, 1997



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Ethan returns and Ms. Calendar is in danger when a demon from Giles' darker days comes to Sunnydale."

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? What did you think of getting our first real Giles-centric outing?
2. What did you think of the interactions between Buffy and Giles in this ep?
3. After learning more about Angel's evil past in "Lie to Me," we get to see him acting heroically in "The Dark Age." What did you think of Angel's role?
4. Thoughts about the Scoobies, including Cordelia becoming more integrated into the group?
5. What did you think of the Giles/Jenny relationship and how things ended up between them?
6. Favorite lines/scenes?
7. Anything stand out on rewatch (including after the events of A&F Season 9 if you read it)?

Trivia note: The pic of young Giles is apparently ASH's head on Sid Vicious' body.
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 13, 2017 10:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What did you think of getting our first real Giles-centric outing?

Giles is #3 on my favorite character list...right behind Buffy and Angel....so I loved it. I especially cherish every Giles scene nowadays considering that we have lost this wonderful version of Giles. Sure, we still have Giles in child form....but it isn't the same. For me it's not even close.

What did you think of the interactions between Buffy and Giles in this ep?

When Giles rushed in screaming at Eyghon to take him instead of Buffy, I thought, "aww, he loves her". I think the episode strengthened their relationship. Buffy learned that Giles is not just a stuffed shirt in tweed, but a real person who makes mistakes just like everyone else. And I think she learned how much she needs "Giles the stuffed shirt guy"....

Buffy: Don't be sorry, be Giles. C'mon, we fight monsters. This is what we do. They show up, they scare us, I beat 'em up and they go away. This isn't any different!

Buffy may like to tease about the tweed and Giles's love of math and school, but she needs this dependable, clear headed guy to help her with her calling. Buffy views Giles differently after this ep because she realizes they aren't so different after all. I love the growing father/daughter relationship and think it's one of the most important in the series.


After learning more about Angel's evil past in "Lie to Me," we get to see him acting heroically in "The Dark Age." What did you think of Angel's role?

Ok, this is a subject I'm very passionate about. I feel very strongly that Angel doesn't have an evil past, and that all the memories Angel has of the evil done to Drusilla....are memories of the evil done by Angelus. So while Angel has memories of driving Drusilla insane...the memories aren't really his....they are the memories of Angelus. I think the series has done a pretty straightforward job of separating the demon from the person, but this episode takes the separation even further when Eyghon enters Angel and fights with the demon inside of Angel.


Angel's face twists and contorts as the demons inside of him fight it out. He is thrown to the crate and hits his head. His face goes through a few more contortions when Eyghon suddenly appears, apparently gaining the upper hand. After a moment Angel's face shifts back to normal, then back to Eyghon, then back to normal again. He is thrown back against the wall. Another moment's struggle and the demon inside Angel throws Eyghon out. Without a host body to occupy Eyghon quickly crumbles into ashes.

And then from the shooting script.....

They watch as Angel's FACE MORPHS:

The Demon. The Vampire. Regular Angel. Alternating between the three as an INTERNAL BATTLE takes place.



So now that that's out of the way....I thought it was a pretty brilliant way to rid Jenny of Eyghon, and at the same time show the total separation between Angel/Angelus.



Thoughts about the Scoobies, including Cordelia becoming more integrated into the group?

I loved Willow taking charge and laying down the law to Xander and Cordelia. She's becoming quite the leader. I think the seeds for Xander/Cordy are being planted....Xander got her out of harms way when Phillip broke out of the cage.

What did you think of the Giles/Jenny relationship and how things ended up between them?

Everything was going so well until that pesky Eyghon had to take over Jenny's body. Jenny was kinda aggressive when she told Giles she wanted to stay in on their next date...and if there was any doubt about what she meant, I think her wanting to see if she could make him squirm pretty much cleared it up. Poor Giles was sad at the end and I was sad for him. But I can understand Jenny's feelings after her ordeal. So sad to know how it's all gonna turn out. sniff.


Favorite lines/scenes?

I loved Giles's horrified look while Jenny was teasing him.

Jenny: Oh! Thank you so much for loaning me the Forrester book. It's wonderful!

Giles: Well, I'm glad you enjoyed it!

Jenny: Yeah, it was so romantic, so evocative.

Giles: That edition was my father's. I, I, I must've read it... twenty times.

Jenny: Yeah, y'know how you have to, to dog-ear your favorite pages so you can go back to them?

Giles: Uh, uh, uh, what?

Jenny: Well, I mean, I-I practically had to fold back every single page. So finally I just, I just started underlining all the pages I really wanted to discuss.

Giles: U-u-underlined...?

Jenny: But then, of course, I spilled coffee all over it, I can't even read it...

Giles: (can't believe it) It's a first edition!

Jenny: I'm lying, Rupert. (smiles) The book's fine. (holds it up) I just love to see you squirm. (hands him the book)
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 2:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? What did you think of getting our first real Giles-centric outing? "The Dark Age" is great for the most part, but something just seems off about it, especially in the early action scenes. Still, I love getting more Giles.

2. What did you think of the interactions between Buffy and Giles in this ep? It was a great decision for the first episode after "Lie to Me" to be focused on the repercussions from Giles' own journey from childhood to adulthood. Buffy has learned that it's not always easy to know who to trust, so of course that has to be tested on the person she trusts most. It's definitely a credit to her that she accepts Giles and wants him to forgive himself at the end. It's also very interesting that the episode shows that while Buffy trusts Giles, he didn't trust her to understand his mistakes. That makes sense given the authority figure dynamic, but it's a good lesson for him to learn as well.

3. After learning more about [EDIT: Angelus'] evil past in "Lie to Me," we get to see [EDIT: Angel] acting heroically in "The Dark Age." What did you think of Angel's role?

bonnaleah wrote:
Ok, this is a subject I'm very passionate about. I feel very strongly that Angel doesn't have an evil past, and that all the memories Angel has of the evil done to Drusilla....are memories of the evil done by Angelus.


I agree with you, but I'm always overly influenced by the way Angel himself characterizes it, so since he was talking about what "I" did to Drusilla, I was thinking along those lines. I know, though, that Angel generally takes the hardest line against himself.

Anyway, I really liked Angel showing up during the blood delivery scene. I personally wondered if he was following Buffy to make sure she was OK and the everybody-knows-about-delivery-day story was just a cover. (Because if it happens every month, and the vampires all know that, then why hasn't it come up before? Wink)

I also thought Angel's willingness to go along with Willow's brilliant solution to the Eyghon dilemma really underlined how far he's come since "The Harvest."

5. What did you think of the Giles/Jenny relationship and how things ended up between them? Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad

They'll never really be the same.

6. Favorite lines/scenes?

Buffy: He probably sat in math class thinking, 'There should be more math. This could be mathier.'
Willow: C'mon, you don't think he ever got restless as a kid?
Buffy: Are you kidding? His diapers were tweed.

Ethan: Y'know, I hope you're not taking this personally, Buffy. I actually kinda like you.

Willow: And if you two aren't with me 110 percent, then get the hell out of my library!

7. Anything stand out on rewatch (including after the events of A&F Season 9 if you read it)? Oh man, I forgot to look for the rat! Wink


There wasn't much in the shooting script that we didn't see. There was this one scene that I'm glad got cut, though.

Quote:
EXT. SUNNYDALE STREET - NIGHT

A LITTLE DOG trots down the sidewalk, HAPPY and CAREFREE.

REVEAL the dog is being walked by its owner, a MAN equally happy and carefree. The dog starts SNARLING at something.

MAN
Whoa there, Spritzer. It's okay.
The dog BARKS uncontrollably at someone in the SHADOWS.

MAN
(to dog)
Come on, there's nothing to be afraid of.
(then, to unseen person)
Spritzer's a friendly little guy. He really likes people.
The person steps out of the shadows: it's DEMON CALENDAR, who looks even more Hellish than before. Her flesh hangs loosely, the sores on her face have opened up, and the forehead ridges protrude further out. She speaks in her
demon voice:
DEMON CALENDAR
I really like dogs.
The man becomes less happy and carefree. Demon Calendar SNATCHES the leash from his hand. The man slowly backs away.

MAN
Spritzer...
The man's eyes go wide. He turns and BOLTS for his life. We WATCH HIM GO as we hear:

The dog BARKING. Then YELPING. Then a more horrible sound:

Then NOTHING.
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x09/2x10 What's My Line 1&2
Written by Howard Gordon (Part 1) and Marti Noxon (Parts 1&2)
Directed by David Solomon (Part 1) and David Semel (Part 2)
Original air dates: November 17 and November 24, 1997



Summaries from BuffyGuide.com: "As the gang endures career week, Spike sends assassins after Buffy and sets out to cure Drusilla; a new Slayer comes to town." (Part 1) "Buffy must team up with Kendra to save Angel when it turns out that his death is necessary to cure Drusilla." (Part 2)

There's so much to talk about in this two-parter, so I thought I'd make the questions really general and you can go off in whichever directions you want!

1) Thoughts on:
    Buffy and Angel? (Mr. Gordo, ice skating, the ritual, etc.)
    Willow and Oz? (Software recruits, getting shot(!), monkey pants)
    Xander and Cordelia? (Bugs, bugs, bugs)
    Spike and Dru? (And Angel!)
    Kendra?
    Giles?
    Others? (Willy the snitch, Dalton, the Order of Taraka)

2) Favorite lines / scenes?

3) Anything stand out on rewatch?

Other notes: Danny Strong (Jonathan) is credited as "Hostage Kid" in this one. I love that they kept giving him parts, even if they weren't specifically written as Jonathan! ... If you like Buffy and Angel on ice, check out Kairos' "Pair Skating" fic, set in S3. ... More Dawn AU gifsets! With Cordelia and with Giles circa mid-S2.
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry I wasn't able to get this up yesterday. I'm fighting a sinus infection and it's kicking my ass...so this will be short.


I love this two part episode so much. There's just so much B/A goodness. I loved that Angel had just climbed in Buffy's window and hung around in her room waiting for her to get home. Angel hugging Mr Gordo was so cute, but what I really loved was Buffy reassuring Angel that he was the one freaky thing in her freaky world that still made sense to her.

I loved the skating rink scene and it's callback back to the episode "Angel"...

Darla: What did you think? Did you think she would understand? That she would look at your face... your true face... and give you a kiss?

How wonderfully perfect that Buffy did just that. She loves him so much that she didn't even notice he was wearing his vampire face...and then when he reminded her she kissed his vampire face....swoon.

I thought the "nobody messes with my boyfriend" line was pretty cheesy...cringe worthy really. But on the other hand it was a public unashamed declaration that Angel was indeed Buffy's boyfriend.


I loved the look on Oz's face when he realized he was sitting next to "that girl". Oz is such a cool character and I love his laid back persona. That look of shocked disbelief after being shot was perfection. He can't believe it even as he's saying it. "I'm shot". I just love his delivery of that line.




I enjoy watching Xander and Cordy together and they did seem to have chemistry. I'm constantly in awe of Nick Brendon's acting ability. His facial expressions are always spot on and I'm always thinking , "this kid is really a good actor". I like Xander and Cory together more than anyone else they were ever paired up with and always hoped they would reconnect later in the series.



The re-watch reminds me of why I used to love Spike so much. Spike used to be such a fun character. Early on he was so cocky and full of himself...he even had his own minion. But at the same time he was so totally devoted to Drusilla and it was clear that his whole world revolved around her. I just really adore Spike and Dru. I never really understood what had happened to make Drusilla unwell or why there was so much urgency about doing the ritual. Also there were bruises all over Dru's arms so I don't know what was going on there. Whatever it was had Spike so freaked out that he was willing to kill his sire to cure her.....because at this point in the series we don't yet know that Angel wasn't Spike's sire....and we don't know why Spike seems to hate Angel so much. With our limited information it just seems like Spike is trying to save Dru.

Once again Spike loses his patience and snaps at Dru, only to end up begging her forgiveness when he realizes he's upset her.


Another vampire slayer was a huge surprise and the way they set up this Order of Taraka thing made me initially think Kendra was part of that order. Kendra was an ok character but I hated the accent. I was never hugely invested in her character but if nothing else I think Buffy was comforted in knowing there was someone else out there like herself.




Favorite lines / scenes?

Gotta be the skating rink, "I didn't even notice" scene.

Anything stand out on re-watch?

During a re-watch I'm always reminded of just how perfect these early seasons were. How everything just gelled and how every character had importance. I'm reminded of what made me love this series so much and why it's my favorite series ever.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonnaleah wrote:
Sorry I wasn't able to get this up yesterday. I'm fighting a sinus infection and it's kicking my ass...so this will be short.


Ugh, sorry to hear that! I hope you feel better soon. Your reason is much better than mine, which is just that I fell asleep early after several days of having houseguests! Smile

bonnaleah wrote:
I loved that Angel had just climbed in Buffy's window and hung around in her room waiting for her to get home. Angel hugging Mr Gordo was so cute, but what I really loved was Buffy reassuring Angel that he was the one freaky thing in her freaky world that still made sense to her.


I love that part, too. I like how that scene manages to encapsulate so many of the worries of their relationship -- Buffy's frustration about Angel always showing up with bad news, Angel's need to make sure Buffy is OK (up to and including lurking), Buffy's yearning for a normal life and Angel's concern that he can't offer that for her, even the "You have something face" line (sob). But the love shines through so beautifully. Buffy assures Angel that he's exactly what she needs, and he proves it by finding a way to offer her the kind of escape to normality that she craves (at least for a little while!).

And then she returns the favor at the ice rink by offering him the acceptance he craves. It's such a lovely moment.

bonnaleah wrote:
I thought the "nobody messes with my boyfriend" line was pretty cheesy...cringe worthy really. But on the other hand it was a public unashamed declaration that Angel was indeed Buffy's boyfriend.


Agreed on both counts. She was wavery about it in Lie to Me.

bonnaleah wrote:
I loved the look on Oz's face when he realized he was sitting next to "that girl". Oz is such a cool character and I love his laid back persona. That look of shocked disbelief after being shot was perfection. He can't believe it even as he's saying it. "I'm shot". I just love his delivery of that line.


Me too. I had totally forgotten Oz got shot! I'm so glad we got to finally see Oz and Willow interact. The monkey pants scene at the end was so cute. Definitely left me wanting more, though!

bonnaleah wrote:
I'm constantly in awe of Nick Brendon's acting ability. His facial expressions are always spot on and I'm always thinking , "this kid is really a good actor".


He really is. There are so many Xander lines that I think must've been so hard to pull off but he does it naturally. And ASH blows me away, too. He is basically an expository machine for both of these episodes (even more than usual, it seemed, especially coming off the meatiness of The Dark Age) and yet is never boring.

Favorite lines / scenes?

Buffy: The Cliff Notes version? I want a normal life. Like I had before.
Angel: Before me.
Buffy: No, Angel, it's not you. You're the one freaky thing in my freaky world that still makes sense to me. I just get messed sometimes. I wish we could be regular kids.
Angel: Yeah. I'll never be a kid.
Buffy: Okay, then a regular kid and her cradle robbing, creature-of-the-night boyfriend.

Willy: What are you gonna do with him anyway?
Spike: I'm thinkin' maybe dinner and a movie. I don't want to rush into anything. I've been hurt, you know.

Buffy: You and bug people, Xander. What's up with that?
Xander: No, but this dude was completely different than praying mantis lady. He was a man *of* bugs, not a man who *was* a bug.

Xander: Angel's our friend! Except I don't like him.

Cordelia: As if! You've probably been planning this for months!
Xander: Right, I hired a Latvian bug man to kill Buffy so I could kiss you.

3) Anything stand out on rewatch?

The biggest thing for me was just the realization that Buffy and Kendra actually planned the whole fight in front of Willy, and Buffy actually did not fall for the trap, which I don't think I put together before. I was just like, "Wow, Kendra and the Scoobies got there really fast.... Oooooh."

Another thing that is obvious but that I hadn't really thought much about before is Spike getting injured just as Drusilla gets cured. We don't really get to see the two of them working together at full strength (outside of flashbacks), since once Spike is healed, he teams up with the slayer. (And after that, they split up. Apparently, there is no relationship that can survive Sunnydale.) But it's an interesting element to their relationship at this stage ... only one of them can be strong at a time.

I also thought it was funny when Xander was teasing Buffy about how she contributes by going for snacks, given that he fills that role later.

Interesting that Angel is in so much danger from the sunlight when he has his leather jacket available. In Season 11, Spike is totally fine walking around in the freaking Grand Canyon with a hoodie on his head. Rolling Eyes Very Happy

I also hadn't noticed before that we see Angel alone in Buffy's room and Buffy alone in Angel's room in the same episode. (Though it surprised me that Angel wouldn't have made his bed. Must've been in a hurry for the skate date? And I guess Buffy needed to stay ready to fight ... but I was cringing at the boots in the bed! Ha.)

Looking at the scripts, there are some interesting bits of description.

Quote:
EXT. BUS STATION - DAY

The sign on the brick wall reads: SUNNYDALE. A BUS rumbles into frame, squeals to a stop in a cloud of exhaust.

CLOSE ON THE STAIRS OF THE BUS

We hear the doors open with a hydraulic hiss. A passenger gets off. And another. Then an ENORMOUS PAIR OF BOOTS fill the frame.

We pan up to see a GIANT. Seven feet tall in boots, and a hard four hundred pounds. A think, milky cataract covers one eye. His other eye is set deep in the fleshy mask of assorted scars and carbuncles he calls a face. His name is OCTARUS. And as he descends the stairs and moves out of frame-


Octarus, eh?

Quote:
INT. SEEDY BAR (THE ALIBI ROOM) - NIGHT

This is the kind of bar where the lights are so low it's hard to see your hand in front of your face. Which is a good thing. Because you wouldn't want to get a good look at either the surroundings or the patrons.

It's after hours. A solitary stooped figure gives the floor a perfunctory once-over with a stiff broom. This is WILLY, a shifty-eyed bottom-dweller. In addition to being the bartender here, he's a small time hustler who moves in the underworld of the vampires - despite the fact that he is not a vamp himself.


The Alibi Room?

Quote:
The window is open. Xander CLIMBS THROUGH - CORDY on his heels. Cordy is dressed in sweats - her hair pulled back. Like a girl who just got dragged out of bed.


Cordelia does wear gym clothes in this ep, but no sweats in this scene!

Quote:
In contrast to the sun-washed storage room, Angel's apartment is a cool, dark tomb. A haven from the waking world.

CLOSE ON BUFFY

Curled in Angel's bed - arms tightly wrapped around his pillow. She is, for the moment, safe in his phantom embrace. A sound. Something moves in the apartment. Loud enough to rouse Buffy from her dream. Her eyes flutter - then SNAP OPEN just in time for her to DODGE THE SHORT AXE that SLAMS into the pillow just inches from her neck. Buffy LEAPS from the bed - comes face to face with KENDRA.


This was just sweet.

Quote:
DRUSILLA
You remember?

ANGEL
Yes.

DRUSILLA
You remember that kind of hungry?

ANGEL
Yes . . .

DRUSILLA
You used to feed me.

Angel looks away - she's not talking food now.

DRUSILLA
You think you don't have it in you now. But you do. I can feel it.

She THROWS A HUGE SPLASH OF HOLY WATER on his chest. Angel finally SCREAMS in agony.

DRUSILLA
I can almost taste it.


A foreshadowy bit that was cut.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x11 Ted
Written by David Greenwalt and Joss Whedon
Directed by Bruce Seth Green
Original air date: December 8, 1997



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Everyone except Buffy loves Joyce's new beau, who turns out to be more than meets the eye."

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? 
2. Do you think it was understandable that the Scoobies didn't take Buffy's concerns about Ted seriously at first? Or did that annoy you, given her track record?
3. What did you think about Joyce and Buffy's interactions?
4. How did you feel about Buffy's response to "killing" Ted?
5. Were your feelings about this episode changed at all on rewatch, especially in light of what happens with Faith in S3?
6. Thoughts on our sweet little B/A scene?
7. What did you think of the Jenny/Giles stuff?
8. Favorite lines/scenes?

This is the last episode that aired in 1997, so we've made it through a calendar year of Buffy! I don't think I'll get a chance to post my thoughts about Ted until this weekend, but I'm looking forward to getting your take, bonnaleah! And anyone else who wants to rewatch, of course! Smile
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 6:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode?

Of the countless times I've watched this episode, I have never enjoyed it more than I did this time. It's weird because it was always just an ok episode for me...a MOTW filler, but this time?...I don't know, maybe it's just the nostalgia factor, or knowing going in that Buffy didn't really kill a human...or wondering if there would be another B/A scene...knowing the answer to all those things that distracted me initially, I guess changed my focus and allowed me to truly enjoy the episode. First time around I was so scared for Buffy, and wondering how on earth she was gonna get away with killing a human. So, so relieved when Ted turned out to be a robot. And John Ritter was just fabulous as was Joyce. I also really love how the episode found a way to address all of the characters.



Do you think it was understandable that the Scoobies didn't take Buffy's concerns about Ted seriously at first? Or did that annoy you, given her track record?

I didn't blame the Scoobies. None of them saw the side of Ted that Buffy saw...and they were also eating the cookies. Plus I think it's pretty normal to resent and resist a new person dating one of your parent's and I think Xander and Willow understood that. Heck even Angel thought Buffy needed to give Ted a chance.

What did you think about Joyce and Buffy's interactions?

I thought Joyce was being a really selfish, crappy mother right up until it was revealed about the cookies. I especially hated that Joyce believed Ted over Buffy, and that she was giving him so much power over how Buffy was parented.


How did you feel about Buffy's response to "killing" Ted?

Well I was heartsick for her...and very scared for her. I thought her response fit perfectly with everything we know about her. Buffy was horrified when she thought she had killed a human, and she owned it because that's just who she is.

Were your feelings about this episode changed at all on re-watch, especially in light of what happens with Faith in S3?

You know I do think Faith felt bad about killing a human, but unlike Buffy, Faith's concern for herself was greater than her her guilt over killing a human. Unlike Buffy, Faith pretended not to care and tried to weasel out and pin the killing on Buffy. The contrast between Buffy and Faith is pretty clear....it's like Whistler said.... " The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are".


Thoughts on our sweet little B/A scene?

The scene was made of awesome. I loved seeing them curled up together in Angel's appt...the easy rapport they have. They are so comfortable with each other. I love that Buffy has always been able to share her problems with Angel...and how Angel can make her see things from a different perspective. They are so supportive and perfect for each other. And then Buffy nursing Angel's wounds while he hands her pieces of tape....I love it.


What did you think of the Jenny/Giles stuff?

I felt so bad for Giles when Jenny made her puppy dog eyes remark, and I was surprised when she appeared while he was patrolling. Jenny shooting Giles in the butt was pretty funny....poor Giles...he does get knocked around a lot. The Giles/Jenny kiss at the end was perfect.


Favorite lines/scenes?

Buffy: Then I guess it's a good thing I'm not *in* your house.


Angel: (smiles) Kiss me.

Buffy: (smiles) Finally, something I wanna do!
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 01, 2017 4:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the delay on this! Lots going on this week — good stuff, luckily!

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?  

bonnaleah wrote:
Of the countless times I've watched this episode, I have never enjoyed it more than I did this time. It's weird because it was always just an ok episode for me...a MOTW filler, but this time?...I don't know, maybe it's just the nostalgia factor, or knowing going in that Buffy didn't really kill a human...or wondering if there would be another B/A scene...knowing the answer to all those things that distracted me initially, I guess changed my focus and allowed me to truly enjoy the episode.


I don't think I really loved it on first watch, either. I think I like it more on rewatch because I know that the themes it teases out are things that we will come back to again, from different angles. So I enjoy getting a little taste of what's to come without going too far down a road that would change the entire season/show. And I love John Ritter in this!

2. Do you think it was understandable that the Scoobies didn't take Buffy's concerns about Ted seriously at first? Or did that annoy you, given her track record? 

bonnaleah wrote:
I didn't blame the Scoobies. None of them saw the side of Ted that Buffy saw...and they were also eating the cookies. Plus I think it's pretty normal to resent and resist a new person dating one of your parent's and I think Xander and Willow understood that. Heck even Angel thought Buffy needed to give Ted a chance.


I agree. It reminded me of Willow's reaction to Angel wanting to look into Ford's background in Lie to Me. She was initially skeptical of his motives, too, but she still helped, just like she did with Buffy in Ted. So I thought their attitudes made sense (plus the whole cookie thing, of course).

3. What did you think about Joyce and Buffy's interactions? The scene in which Buffy tells Joyce that Ted threatened her and Joyce brushes it off is really chilling. Even if she was drugged and Ted fed her some story. It hurts to watch.

4. How did you feel about Buffy's response to "killing" Ted? 

bonnaleah wrote:
Buffy was horrified when she thought she had killed a human, and she owned it because that's just who she is.


Yes, though I am still impressed that she spoke up so forthrightly about it, especially with Joyce giving her an out. I wasn't expecting her to lie, but maybe for what happened to come out more gradually.

5. Were your feelings about this episode changed at all on rewatch, especially in light of what happens with Faith in S3? I'm really glad that we have this episode as a basis of comparison for the reactions of Buffy and Faith. I think it gives added depth to the S3 storyline — we don't have to just trust that Buffy would do the right thing, we've actually seen her do it. Buffy doesn't even set the bar as high for Faith as she does for herself. She just wants Faith to accept responsibility and figure out where to go from there.

I was just googling the episode in which Faith and Buffy talk to the police about Allan Finch's murder, and came across an essay by Martin Tomlinson that I thought put it well:

Quote:
Note that in the dialogues with Faith concerning the killing of Alan Finch, Faith constantly creates excuses to avoid taking responsibility for her own actions (it was an accident, he was involved in dirty dealings, what's one death compared to the lives we’ve saved, etc.). ... Now contrast that with Buffy's response upon "killing" Ted. In Buffy's case, everyone else tries to make up excuses for her, but she refuses to accept them.


6. Thoughts on our sweet little B/A scene?  So good, I watched that part twice!

7. What did you think of the Jenny/Giles stuff? Perfect but painful!

8. Favorite lines/scenes? 

Buffy: "Vampires ... here, vampires"


Cordelia: Shouldn't there be different rules for her?
Willow: Sure, in a fascist society.
Cordelia: Right! Why can't we have one of those?


Cordelia: I guess you should know, since you helped raise that demon that killed that guy that time?
Giles: Yes. Do let's bring that up as often as possible.


Xander: Something's missing here. This doesn't seem like Ted at all.
Cordelia: Yeah, and this rug? It doesn't go with the rest of the decor.


Considering what's coming, I thought this was painful on rewatch:
"Vampires are creeps." / "Yes, that's why one slays them."


The script available online was very similar to the aired episode.

Willow originally got the last word in the Captain vs. Tennille debate:

Quote:
WILLOW
I'm just saying, if Tenille was in charge, she would have had the little captain hat.


This made me feel like I'm not avid enough of a fan:

Quote:
INT. BUFFY'S HOUSE - KITCHEN - DAY

Joyce hums a little tune to herself as she sets out juice and sticky buns. Buffy enters in a bad mood from lack of sleep and Ted terror. Avid fans may note the absence of the framed photo of Buffy and Joyce.


Though I did notice that they turned it into a picture hanging on the fridge instead of in a frame. Smile
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 2:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x12 Bad Eggs
Written by Marti Noxon
Directed by David Greenwalt
Original air date: January 12, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "The gang must adopt eggs as 'babies' for their Health class, but there's more than yolk inside these eggs."

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Do you think it deserves its reputation as one of the "worst"?
2. "When I look into the future, all I see is you..." What did you think of the B/A in this smoocherific episode?
3. The Gorches: amusing or annoying (or blah)?
4. Thoughts on the Xander/Cordelia lust/hate thing?
5. Other thoughts about the Scoobies?
6. How did you feel about Joyce's interactions with Buffy?
7. Favorite lines/scenes?
8. Anything stand out on rewatch?
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 3:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Posting early this week since I'm gearing up for some travel. I'll have to make this quick(ish)! Next week should be back to normal for me (just in time for a certain pair of episodes...).

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Do you think it deserves its reputation as one of the "worst"? Nope, I love it on all levels. I think it's hilarious and ridiculous and adorable. I would rather rewatch this one than plenty of other episodes.

2. "When I look into the future, all I see is you..." What did you think of the B/A in this smoocherific episode? While I love all of it, my favorite is the reveal that Angel is outside Buffy's window at the end. So cute.

"When I look into the future, all I see is you" is both sweet and sad, since I think Buffy doesn't believe she really has much of a future. But she knows she wants Angel in whatever future she does get, which definitely seems to show that she's made up her mind about whether she trusts him since Lie to Me.

His "I know the feeling" response is also really touching, because he had just been pushing her to acknowledge that she might want things someday that he couldn't give her. But he gives in because he knows where she's coming from, since he had basically given up before Buffy came along.

3. The Gorches: amusing or annoying (or blah)? I like 'em, even if they are pretty pointless to the storyline. I crack up every time when Tector says, "Well, how come she ain't slaying? And how come he's about to make me blush?"

4. Thoughts on the Xander/Cordelia lust/hate thing? I don't really like it at all in this episode. I thought it was much better last week when Xander was complimenting Cordelia's outfit and she was freaking out that people would guess what was going on.

But I did like the concept of Barrette Appreciation Day!

5. Other thoughts about the Scoobies? I loved the scene with possessed Giles and Joyce. They are both so cute that I kind of forgot about Jenny. I also adored how Giles had no idea what had happened at the end but made up a cover story immediately.

6. How did you feel about Joyce's interactions with Buffy? Joyce was definitely being used to hammer home the theme of responsibility in this episode, but even if Buffy had legitimately been misbehaving, I do think Joyce was taking the wrong approach. If she really wanted to understand what's going on in Buffy's life, I feel like she should be spending more time with her, not confining her to her room (as if that was even working).

7. Favorite lines/scenes? Those mentioned previously, plus...

Cordelia: It isn't acting anything. It's an egg, Buffy, it doesn't emote.

Xander: Can I just say Gyughhh!
Buffy: I see your 'Gyughhh!' and raise you a Nyaghhh!

Giles: Yes, yes, uh, i-i-it was a-a, a gas leak, everyone. Uh, well,
just, uh, get some air, and a... good night's rest, you know, uh, you'll
be fine. These gas things... will happen. (to Xander) W-w-what was it
really?


Not too much to mention from the script, but the B/A talk about the future was originally longer:

Quote:
ANGEL
(skeptical)
So you don't think about the future.

BUFFY
No.

ANGEL
Never.

BUFFY
No.

ANGEL
How can you say that? You're not like me. You could have a normal life.
(off her look)
You know what I mean. Less not normal. You really don't care what happens a year from now? Five years from now -- ?

BUFFY
I - I can't care.
(with difficulty)
Angel, when I try to look into the future, all I can see... is you--
Angel shakes his head.

ANGEL
(pained)
Buffy--

BUFFY
And I don't have a choice. Don't you know that? If I could do the logic thing, you think I would even be here?
(then)
All I can see is you... All I want is you.

A beat. Finally - Angel nods. Giving into it.

ANGEL
(quietly)
I know the feeling.

He draws her back into his arms. They kiss tenderly, passionately. Tomorrow entirely forgotten.
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