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Buffy Season 2: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 308

PostPosted: Thu Jul 06, 2017 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode? Do you think it deserves its reputation as one of the "worst"?

Quote:
Nope, I love it on all levels. I think it's hilarious and ridiculous and adorable. I would rather rewatch this one than plenty of other episodes.


I totally agree with everything you said. I too love everything about it. But especially the B/Aness of the episode, which I suspect is a big reason for it's reputation as one of the worst nowadays. Back when this episode originally aired the Buffy/Angel romance was a very popular thing, so I imagine fans brushed aside the cheesy egg plot and just thoroughly enjoyed seeing the Buffy/Angel kiss fest. I know that's how I felt when I first watched. Their relationship had been building since the very first episode and it was all very exciting seeing it progress. Course back then there was no reason not to like B/A...unless you just weren't a fan of romance...or I suppose maybe holding out hope for B/X....

"When I look into the future, all I see is you..." What did you think of the B/A in this smoocherific episode?

Loved it completely! I did feel a little sadness though since I know what's coming.

Quote:
"When I look into the future, all I see is you" is both sweet and sad, since I think Buffy doesn't believe she really has much of a future. But she knows she wants Angel in whatever future she does get, which definitely seems to show that she's made up her mind about whether she trusts him since Lie to Me.
His "I know the feeling" response is also really touching, because he had just been pushing her to acknowledge that she might want things someday that he couldn't give her. But he gives in because he knows where she's coming from, since he had basically given up before Buffy came along.



I agree. All they see is each other and both are hoping for a future together. S7 kinda brought us right back to this moment when Buffy called Angel back to tell him that him that she does still look that far ahead. The shooting script had an extra line that really leaves no doubt that she still thinks about a future with Angel sometimes.

Buffy:Angel. I do. Sometimes... think that far ahead.

He stops, smiles a bit.

Buffy: (cont'd)We both have our lives, but...sometimes...

ANGEL:Sometimes is something.

Buffy:It'd be a long time coming. Years,if ever.

He walks backwards into the dark, smiling at her.

ANGEL:I ain't gettin' any older.


S8 also pretty much confirmed that both of them still harbored hopes that one day they could be together. When Angel was making his plea to Buffy he told her that this was what they had been waiting for and she rose up to kiss him. I loved the callback to to the Bad Eggs scene and that in spite of not being able to be together...they both still very much wanted what they wanted in S2.


The Gorches: amusing or annoying (or blah)?

I think they are hilarious and I love them too.

Thoughts on the Xander/Cordelia lust/hate thing?

Yeah I don't think they really hate each other so much. I think they neither one want to admit to the other that feelings have developed. I love them together better than with anyone else either was paired up with. I always hoped they could meet up again.

Other thoughts about the Scoobies?

Quote:
I loved the scene with possessed Giles and Joyce. They are both so cute that I kind of forgot about Jenny. I also adored how Giles had no idea what had happened at the end but made up a cover story immediately.


Grace, we are so totally on the same page about this episode. Giles and Joyce were adorable and I forgot about Jenny too. Of course everything Giles does is adorable to me...I just love him so much.

How did you feel about Joyce's interactions with Buffy?

It's hard to blame Joyce for her choices when she doesn't know that Buffy is saving the world all the time. I kinda understood the first grounding because to her it had to look like Buffy was getting ready to sneak out of the house....and I guess she's just trying to be a responsible parent. But the confined to Buffy's room thing was over the top imo....although Buffy found a way to make it work. I loved the scene of the window smoochies so much. I like Joyce a lot and try to cut her some slack since she's clueless about what is really going on. Poor Buffy though...always getting in trouble after she's saved everyone. Joyce should count her lucky stars that she has Buffy for a daughter instead of a rebellious teenager like Faith.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x13 Surprise & 2x14 Innocence
Written by Marti Noxon (Surprise), Joss Whedon (Innocence)
Directed by Michael Lange (Surprise), Joss Whedon (Innocence)
Original air dates: Jan. 19 and 20, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Drusilla reassembles the Judge, an unstoppable demon; Buffy and Angel consummate their relationship." (Surprise) "Angel loses his soul and his demon self takes over; Buffy must deal with him and stop the Judge." (Innocence)

As I did with our last two-parter, I decided to leave the questions very general this week, since there's just so much to talk about.

1) Overall thoughts on these episodes? (This might include but is not limited to, thoughts on... Buffy and Angel, Buffy and Angelus, Drusilla and Spike, Drusilla and Spike and Angelus, Willow and Oz, Xander and Cordelia, Willow and Xander, Giles and Jenny, Giles and Buffy, Buffy and Joyce, etc.)

2) Favorite lines/scenes?

3) Anything stand out on rewatch?

Notes: You can read a transcript of Joss' episode commentary for "Innocence" here. And the scene from "Stowaway" that Buffy and Joyce were watching at the end is available on YouTube. The lyrics that Alice Faye sings are:

Goodnight, my love, the tired old moon is descending
Goodnight, my love, my moment with you now is ending
It was so heavenly, holding you close to me
It will be heavenly to hold you again in a dream
The stars above have promised to meet us tomorrow
Till then, my love, how dreary the new day will seem
So for the present, dear, we'll have to part
Sleep tight, my love, goodnight, my love
Remember that you're mine, sweetheart
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bonnaleah
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Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 308

PostPosted: Wed Jul 12, 2017 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Seems like I can never manage to get my thoughts up on Tues. Yesterday we had thunderstorms the entire day with monsoon type rain that resulted in power outages and downed trees. I couldn't even watch the episodes until evening so here I am late again.

I love this two parter so much and I think it was a real turning point for the series. The series was always good but now it's become great...and it gave us the best villain in the series, imo. I'd call it perfect actually. It's like the stars were all perfectly aligned to produce this masterpiece. Perfectly aligned to bring a cast of characters together who all had so much chemistry between them and who all were magnificent in their roles. I am so impressed with this particular group of actors...especially since most of them were so young. And David Boreanaz? I had loved him as Angel, but as Angelus he really came alive and for me became even more attractive.

The opening sequence of Buffy's dream with Drusilla coming into view behind Buffy is seriously creepy. It's amazing how someone as strikingly beautiful as Drusilla can appear so menacing and evil at the same time. Poor Buffy was correct in worrying that her dream was prophetic since by the end of this two parter Angel really was dead and gone...his soul floating somewhere in the ether.....

I was kinda disappointed that Jenny Calendar was part of the gypsy tribe responsible for cursing Angelus and kinda hated that they were turning her into a bad guy. I guess in her defense she didn't want to do what was being asked of her, but she went alone just the same.

I loved the Birthday party and Oz's reaction about how it explained a lot. I loved everything about Oz in this episode. Could there be a cooler character than Oz? I don't think so. His character probably has the coolest dialogue of anyone. I adore this exchange......

Oz: I'm gonna ask you to go out with me tomorrow night. And I'm kinda
nervous about it, actually. It's interesting.

Willow: Oh. Well, if it helps at all, I'm gonna say yes.

Oz: Yeah, it helps. It-it creates a comfort zone. (Willow smiles) Do
you wanna go out with me tomorrow night?

Willow: (cringes and slaps her hand to her forehead) Oh! I can't!

Oz: Well, see, I like that you're unpredictable.


and this.....


Oz: Well, to the casual observer, it would appear that you're trying to make your friend Xander jealous or even the score or something. And that's on the empty side. See, in my fantasy when I'm kissing *you*, you're kissing *me*. It's okay. I can wait.


I know many think Buffy and Dru share the same birthday because of Drusilla's party but the reason for Dru's party was never really explained. I've also seen it speculated that it was a party to celebrate Dru's health restoration. I guess it doesn't really matter but it would be nice to know for sure. Spike has certainly gone all out for Dru's party.....tracking down and acquiring all the pieces of the Judge is quite a feat and extremely indulgent considering the Judges' power. That's how much he loves his black beauty. He doesn't even seem to mind that she's bat sh*t crazy....He indulges her every whim.....patiently calms her when she goes off rails and just seems to totally adore her. I loved that Spike....and I love crazy Dru.

Spike truly must hate Angel's guts since he was relishing watching the Judge kill Angel. And it should be pretty obvious that he isn't harboring some secret love for Buffy since he wants her dead too.


The claddagh ring scene was beautiful and sums up their relationship perfectly....they truly are great friends and confide their deepest fears to each other.....they are loyal to each other and they belong to each other. I always think of it as a mini marriage scene. Joss sure knows how to twist the knife by giving us this scene and then taking it all away so cruelly. I really wasn't expecting the ep to end with Buffy and Angel giving in to their passion but I guess I shouldn't have been surprised. Buffy had already decided to to take the next step and it was clear that she was worried that she might miss her chance if she waited....

Buffy: But... to *not* act on want... What if I never feel this way again?


Angel: But I'll be back. I will.

Buffy: When? Six months, a year? You don't know how long it's gonna take or if we'll even... (looks down)

Angel: Hey... (raises her chin) If we'll even what?

Buffy: (tears in her eyes) Well, if you haven't noticed, someone pretty much always wants us dead.

Angel: Don't say that. We'll be fine.

Buffy: We don't know that.


Buffy: You almost went away today.

Angel: We both did.

Buffy: (sobs) Angel... (sniffles) I feel like I lost you... (sniffles) You're right, though. We can't be sure of anything.



Buffy is so so afraid of loosing Angel after her dream and I think it's a big reason for why she gives into her passion. She wants to experience this with this person she loves so much because she's afraid something will happen to one or both of them and that she may never love like this again. I would argue that she's right....I don't believe she has ever loved like this again and from her own mouth in S7, she says as much....

I loved Angel more than I WILL ever love anything in this life.


The really creepy part about Buffy and Angel siezing the moment is that it's reminiscent of the Masters words to her in S1 that led to her death...


" You're the one that sets me free! (gloats) If you hadn't come, I couldn't go".

If Buffy hadn't had sex with Angel then Angelus wouldn't have been set free and Buffy would still have her Angel. Gah!

The scene in Angel's apt is heartbreaking and jarring. David Boreanaz just nails the scene, and my heart breaks for Buffy.

My heart also broke for Willow when she saw Xander and Cordy kissing. There's just so many meaningful, emotional scenes that it's hard to remember them all.


Goodnight, my love, the tired old moon is descending
Goodnight, my love, my moment with you now is ending
It was so heavenly, holding you close to me
It will be heavenly to hold you again in a dream
The stars above have promised to meet us tomorrow
Till then, my love, how dreary the new day will seem
So for the present, dear, we'll have to part
Sleep tight, my love, goodnight, my love
Remember that you're mine, sweetheart



This right here gets to me every time. No matter how many times I have seen this episode it always ends the same way....me with tears in my eyes feeling heartbroken. That final scene with Buffy and Joyce is for me the most heartbreaking scene in the series....and then this old song ...my moment with you is now ending. So ,so sad.

I know there's tons I haven't touched on but it's starting to storm again so
That's all for now.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonnaleah wrote:
Seems like I can never manage to get my thoughts up on Tues. Yesterday we had thunderstorms the entire day with monsoon type rain that resulted in power outages and downed trees. I couldn't even watch the episodes until evening so here I am late again.


Wow, that sounds like some crazy weather! I took longer than I expected looking at the scripts last night, so that's why I'm late. I feel like this is a tough week, too. Surprise and Innocence are just so good that it's hard to know where to even start.

bonnaleah wrote:
The opening sequence of Buffy's dream with Drusilla coming into view behind Buffy is seriously creepy. It's amazing how someone as strikingly beautiful as Drusilla can appear so menacing and evil at the same time. Poor Buffy was correct in worrying that her dream was prophetic since by the end of this two parter Angel really was dead and gone...his soul floating somewhere in the ether.....


Yes, definitely. One of the things that stood out for me on rewatch is how much I enjoyed Buffy's prophetic dreams. I suppose those are the kinds of things that only can truly be appreciated on rewatch, since the first time around you don't necessarily understand exactly what they are signaling. The juxtapositions of Buffy and Drusilla are so haunting.

bonnaleah wrote:
I was kinda disappointed that Jenny Calendar was part of the gypsy tribe responsible for cursing Angelus and kinda hated that they were turning her into a bad guy. I guess in her defense she didn't want to do what was being asked of her, but she went alone just the same.


For whatever reason, I found myself much angrier at Jenny on rewatch. It's a great twist (though I agree it's disappointing in a way), and I think it's probably more satisfying to have someone we know explain what's going on and be a target for Buffy's anger. But Buffy's line, "And me? What was I supposed to be paying for?" is such a gut punch.

bonnaleah wrote:
I loved everything about Oz in this episode. Could there be a cooler character than Oz?


That's a definite no. Smile Oz also really comes across as the most grown-up of the Scoobies when it comes to relationships, and that includes Giles and Jenny!

I also thought the parallels between Willow/Oz and Xander/Cordelia were interesting. They are played so differently, but they are similar, too. Oz likes Willow but he can see she's still hung up on Xander. Cordelia likes Xander but she can see he's still hung up on Buffy. (And, adding insult to injury, Cordelia's next major love interest is ... also hung up on Buffy.)

I'm not saying that Cordelia's interest in maintaining her popularity isn't a big part of the reluctance to go public with dating Xander, but I think her true feelings are revealed when she says: "You were too busy rushing off to die for your beloved Buffy. You'd never die for me."

And, of course, Oz has the adorable line to Willow that bonnaleah quoted about "in my fantasy when I'm kissing *you*, you're kissing *me*."

bonnaleah wrote:
Spike has certainly gone all out for Dru's party.....tracking down and acquiring all the pieces of the Judge is quite a feat and extremely indulgent considering the Judges' power. That's how much he loves his black beauty.


It's really interesting how Spike is ready to get on with burning up all those Happy Meals on legs here for Dru's sake, while Angelus is pretty uninterested and wants to hold off so he can torture Buffy. They'll of course end up with different attitudes by the end of the season, though again, both will largely be motivated by the objects of their obsessions.

I had forgotten that we got to see Buffy and Angel face off against Spike and Dru in Surprise. I especially enjoy Angel trying to be the hero and Spike being a jerk about it. (Angel: Take me instead of her! / Spike: Uh, you're not clear on the concept, pal. There is no instead. Just first and second.) Very classic.

bonnaleah wrote:
The claddagh ring scene was beautiful and sums up their relationship perfectly....they truly are great friends and confide their deepest fears to each other.....they are loyal to each other and they belong to each other. I always think of it as a mini marriage scene. Joss sure knows how to twist the knife by giving us this scene and then taking it all away so cruelly.


Yeah, Surprise has several sweet moments that really set up the pain of Innocence. The scene in Angel's apartment in the beginning of Surprise, when Buffy tells Angel about her dream, is adorable. Angel's reassurance and affection so clearly contrast with Angelus' awfulness in Innocence. And the claddagh ring scene is so touching, especially on rewatch when you recognize "Close Your Eyes," while Buffy later taking the ring off and sobbing, also to the sound of "Close Your Eyes," is heartbreaking.

Also, taaroko notes in her (excellent!) review that Angel has been wearing his ring with the heart pointing in at least since "Teacher's Pet." It's so lovely that a claddagh ring has been around since basically the start, since they become very important for the next season or so.

bonnaleah wrote:
Buffy is so so afraid of loosing Angel after her dream and I think it's a big reason for why she gives into her passion. She wants to experience this with this person she loves so much because she's afraid something will happen to one or both of them and that she may never love like this again. I would argue that she's right....I don't believe she has ever loved like this again and from her own mouth in S7, she says as much....


Yes, I had the exact same thought! "What if I never feel this way again?" sounds like a teenage cliche on the surface, but after watching five more seasons, I don't think she ever *does* feel that way again – and it seems unlikely that she ever will be able to love someone as simply and completely as she loves Angel in that moment. So I certainly can't blame her for making the choices she did.

I do think, in addition to her dream, that the threat of Angel going away with the Judge box made Buffy desperate in a way. I think she realized that, in addition to her as the slayer not being able to prioritize their relationship over saving the world, Angel couldn't do it either. So far in the series, his way of doing good has largely been to be there for her – his mission has been to help her. This particular way of helping her, though, was going to take him very far away for a long time. Even though it didn't end up happening, she still felt like she "lost" him. And that was part of what led her to seize the moment and override Angel's very last hesitations.

bonnaleah wrote:
No matter how many times I have seen this episode it always ends the same way....me with tears in my eyes feeling heartbroken. That final scene with Buffy and Joyce is for me the most heartbreaking scene in the series....and then this old song ...my moment with you is now ending. So ,so sad.


Yes! That scene plus the one with Giles in the car right before it just kill me. So much love in them amid all the sadness.

And now I associate Joyce saying, "You look the same to me" with Kairos' Ten Observations on Being in Love With a Human. Reading it is a good balm for the soul after Surprise/Innocence, I have to say.

Speaking of illustrious B/Aers, I read a couple of good theories about the happiness clause that I wanted to link to: taaroko's review of Innocence has one at the end, and a2zmom has a very different but also compelling theory here.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, script stuff now. First up, Surprise.

There were several cuts/changes from the script that's online. A few were pretty interesting, including this conversation between Jenny and Giles:

Quote:
BUFFY
Rough night. I had a dream that Drusilla was alive - and she killed Angel. It really spun me. I even went by Angel's on the way to school to make sure he was okay.

XANDER 
There's a line I haven't tried. "I just dropped by to see if you're dead." It says caring. Concerned. Smootchies guaranteed.

BUFFY
Please. I didn't go over there for smootchies -
(then)
Well. When I found out he was okay I was relieved, and so, naturally...
(then)
Someone stop me.

JENNY
(obliging)
So, Angel's alright?

BUFFY
Yeah, but... I've just got this bad feeling. This wasn't a normal dream.

SCENE CUT
And she heads to class. Calendar and Giles watch her go -then move down the hall toward the library. Giles' expression now betrays the fact that he is more concerned than he let on.

JENNY
What? You really think Buffy's having premonitions?

GILES
It's possible-

INT. LIBRARY - DAY

Calendar and Giles enter - continuing their talk.

JENNY
I guess it makes sense. I mean, all of Buffy's senses are heightened.  Why should her intuition be different?

GILES
Precisely. It's not unheard of for the Slayer to start having prophetic dreams and visions as she approaches adulthood-

JENNY
Adulthood? Buffy's seventeen tomorrow, Giles. Don't rush her.

GILES
I'm not the one rushing her. While I'm loathe to say it, the fact is -  the Slayer rarely lives into her mid-twenties. It follows that she'd exhibit signs of maturity early on. Her whole life-cycle is accelerated.

JENNY
Still, you should be careful about treating her like a grown-up. Like - this thing with Angel. Have you even talked to her about it?

GILES
I - I suppose I try not to pry.

JENNY
Maybe you should, a little. The way she talks - it's clear she has intense feelings for him

GILES
Well, yes. They're friends-

JENNY
They're more than friends and you know it.

A beat as this sinks in.

GILES
I'm not her father, Jenny.

JENNY
She looks up to you. She'll never actually say that, but she does.  And I just think, at her age, it's easy to get in over your head. She could make some bad choices here. Trust me on this one.

GILES
I'll keep an eye to it. Right now I'm worried enough trying to think of the right birthday present.



And also these two scenes that focused on Xander/Cordelia and Willow/Oz:

Quote:
INT. SCHOOL HALLWAY - DAY

Cordy and HARMONY stroll to class. See XANDER and WILLOW hanging in the LOUNGE in the BG.

CORDELIA
(too casual)
Hello. I'm having, like, a totally random thought...
(then)
Xander Harris. Is it just me, or does his shirt almost match his pants?

Harmony looks. Shrugs.

HARMONY
Almost. Why do I care?

CORDELIA
Well. If you look at him a certain way - is he vaguely.., cute?
THEIR POV

As XANDER does some spazzy dance for Willow's amusement.

RESUME

HARMONY
Oh yeah. I'm hot for spaz boy. Are you tripping, Cordelia?

A beat. Cordelia laughs a little too loud.

CORDELIA
You thought I was serious? Please. I was just testing you! Ha.
(sighs)
I'm hot for spaz boy. Good one.

INT. SCHOOL LOUNGE - DAY

Xander and Willow are at the snack machine.

WILLOW
So we're all set. I've got all the decorations. And I think Cordelia's bringing snacks and stuff.

XANDER
Yeah. She said she was. Which was thoughtful. Don't you think?
(takes the leap)
Hey. Cordelia: not as horrible a person as we once thought? I mean, she's obviously trying to be helpful.

WILLOW
True.
(considers)
Maybe...

XANDER
But, you wouldn't ever, like, be able to be friends with her or something.

WILLOW
You mean, like hang out and take Cosmo tests together?

XANDER
I mean - actually elect to be in her presence.

WILLOW
I don't know. She's better - but she's still Cordelia.
(nods to the hall)
Just... look.
THEIR POV

CORDELIA and HARMONY are joined by a few other Cordettes. They all SQUEAL in greeting. Jump up and down.

ON WILLOW AND XANDER

WILLOW
Example: what is the shrieking thing? They just saw each other yesterday...
And now, watch - Cordelia's going to model her new outfit-
ON CORDELIA, ET AL

Sure enough - Cordelia spins around, showing off her mini-dress. More shrieks.

ON WILLOW AND XANDER

WILLOW
Note the reaction - like Cordelia invented clothes.
(then)
They're not bad people, Xander. It's just - we are of two worlds.
(can't help herself)
And theirs is bad.

Xander lets this sinks in.

XANDER
Right. Of course you're right. What was I thinking?

Now OZ approaches. Willow immediately gets shy, happy.

OZ
Hey.

WILLOW
Hey. So - tonight?

OZ
I'm there. Feeling surprise-y.
(then)
Can I pick you up?

Xander's watching them, unsure what to make of all this.

WILLOW
Yeah. That would be... Here-

She writes it on her pad - tears it off and gives it to Oz.

OZ
(pleased)
I have your address.

WILLOW
You do.

OZ
Excellent.

He moves off. Xander looks at Willow - a little shocked.

XANDER
Is this a date?

WILLOW
(distracted)
Hmmm...?
(then)
Yeah. It's a date.

XANDER
Shouldn't you meet him or something? Are you sure you should be giving some stranger your address?

WILLOW
He's not just some stranger, Xander. He's a friend. He took a bullet for me.

XANDER
So? I would've taken a bullet for you. Nobody offered me one.

Off Willow - enjoying Xander's discomfort.


And this B/A conversation at the factory:

Quote:
INT. FACTORY - NIGHT

Buffy and Angel steal in through a dark doorway to the balcony. They keep out of sight, talk quietly.

BUFFY
Angel. Maybe I should go in alone. I mean, if my dreams are so true-

ANGEL
(firmly)
I'm not letting you go by yourself.

Buffy knows she can't fight him on this.

BUFFY
Okay - what do we do if the Judge is already put together?

ANGEL
I'll deal with it. You keep your distance.

Buffy looks at him. Blinks.

BUFFY
We're going to have to get over this virtuous thing or we're dead meat.

ANGEL
(she's right)
If he's assembled, we retreat. Together. Get the others and make a battle plan.

BUFFY
Deal.

They creep along the UPPER DECK AREA of the factory. Peer over the edge.

And, finally, another Jenny/Giles convo that's interesting mostly for Jenny's guiltiness.

Quote:
EXT. SHIP YARD - NIGHT

Giles and Calendar return from A SHIPPING OFFICE, get in his car.

JENNY
Well that was a big zero. No box, no vamps.

INT. GILES' CAR - CONTINUOUS - NIGHT

GILES
Perhaps you ought to go home and get some sleep. I'll continue from here.

JENNY
Like I could sleep, Giles.

GILES
Yes, I feel rather restless myself. Buffy and Angel can handle themselves, of course, but...

JENNY
I know. I'm worried too.

Giles nods. Calendar takes his hand, tries on a smile to cover her mounting guilt.



Now, on to Innocence. This script was closer to the aired version, but there were a few noteworthy things.

One is this description of what life was like for the Judge:

Quote:
THE JUDGE
I fought an army. They hacked me to pieces. For six hundred years my living head lay in a box buried in the ground.
(turns to Spike)
I've learned to be patient.


And this scene of Buffy leaving class and going to Angel's:

Quote:
INT. CLASSROOM - AFTERNOON

ANGLE: A CLOCK

Reads 1:43 pm.

Buffy sits as a TEACHER drones on about history. Buffy looks out the window, looks at her hands, at the clock. Her mind clearly not on her studies.

TEACHER
So, can somebody tell me some of the differences between the Bolsheviks and the Mensheviks? What really separated them? Anyone?

The teacher looks to Buffy, who stares back for a moment.

Buffy rises and walks out of the class.

TEACHER
Miss Summers, I'm sorry, did you have somewhere important to be?

Buffy doesn't hear. She's gone.

ANGEL: WILLOW AND XANDER

Watch her go, puzzled.

INT. HALL OUTSIDE ANGEL'S APARTMENT - AFTERNOON

Buffy comes down the steps and knocks on Angel's door. Nothing. She opens it and enters.

INT. ANGEL'S APARTMENT - CONTINUOUS - DAY

She walks tentatively in, looking about her.

BUFFY
Angel?

She's alone.

Here was Giles' reaction to Willow and Xander leaving the library after Willow sees the X/C kissage:

Quote:
ANGLE: GILES

As Willow blows past, he says:

GILES
Oh, Willow, did you find the index to-

And she's out the door. Xander passes:

GILES
Any luck with-

And he's out the door as well.

GILES
Well. Yes. Interesting children.

He turns back to his volumes, not even trying to guess.


The decision to trim "Angelus" out of this line was interesting!

Quote:
JENNY
He's not Angel anymore. Are you?

ANGEL
Wrong. I am Angel. Angelus. At last.


And this is the scene that Joss talks in his commentary about cutting before they shot it since he knew he was running long (I think the cut made it creepier!):

Quote:
INT. GYPSY'S ROOM - NIGHT

He sits in the armchair, his back to us, when he hears the footsteps. He turns his head only slightly.

GYPSY MAN
I knew you would come. I suppose you want answers.

ANGEL
Not really.

The Gypsy Man stands, spins, terror in his eyes.

ANGEL
But thanks for the offer.

GYPSY MAN
You! Evil one...

ANGEL
Evil one? Oh, man, now I've got hurty feelings.

GYPSY MAN
(backing away)
What do you want?

ANGEL
A whole lot. Got a lot of lost time to make up for. Say, I guess that's kind of your fault, isn't it?

The Gypsy holds up a cross, which Angel knocks out of his hand, grabbing his neck.

ANGEL
You gypsy types, you go and curse people, you really don't care who gets hurt. Of course, you did give me an escape clause, so I gotta thank you for that.

He pushes the old man back so he's sitting on the bed.

GYPSY MAN
You are an abomination. The day you stop suffering for your crimes, you are no longer worthy of a human soul.

ANGEL
Well, that pesky critter's all gone. So we can get down to business.

He kneels in front of the old man.

ANGEL
Don't worry, it won't hurt a bit... after the first hour.

Off the Gypsy's look...
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x15 Phases
Written by Rob Des Hotel and Dean Batali
Directed by Bruce Seth Green
Original air date: January 27, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "The gang tries to save a werewolf from a poacher; Oz makes the startling discovery that he is the werewolf in question."

1. Overall feelings about this episode? Good, bad, mixed?
2. What did you think of the development of Willow and Oz's relationship? How did you feel about the way Oz handled his emergent wolfiness?
3. Did you see any parallels between the Oz and Angel(us) situations? 
4. Thoughts on Angelus in his role as Big Bad?
5. What did you make of that huggy moment in the funeral home between Buffy and Xander?
6. How about Xander's jealousy of Oz? And his constant talking about it around Cordelia?
7. Any subplotty thoughts on Cain or Larry?
8. Favorite lines / scenes? 
9. Anything stand out on rewatch? What did you think of all the references to S1?

I also wanted to ask a question about the recurring theme in this episode and later in the season about the weight that Buffy bears as the slayer if she's not able to save someone, especially in situations where she feels she could have (as with Angelus' victims). But I couldn't figure out how to word it. So if you have thoughts on that, share those too.
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode? I like this episode a lot, so I was surprised to see that it gets pretty mixed reactions from reviewers/others. I'm sure part of it is that it's hard to follow Surprise/Innocence with anything, and also that it's a big tonal shift. I liked all the references to Season 1, especially the opening callback to Witch, and I feel like they were very intentional. Something really bad has happened to Buffy, but the stuff of everyday living has resumed, and the Scoobies are still innocent in a way that is going to change very soon.

What did you think of the development of Willow and Oz's relationship? How did you feel about the way Oz handled his emergent wolfiness? Still feeling the love for Oz. I definitely sympathized with his fear of telling everyone, even Willow, that he was the wolf. He hasn't been part of the group, or dating Willow, for very long at all, he was only initiated into the supernatural in the last couple of weeks, and he couldn't really know how they would react. (He wasn't there for Giles' "no killing" speech, and Buffy wasn't talking about *capturing* the wolf when Oz was in the library, even though we know that was her goal.) Now, when Willow came over to his house and was in immediate danger, that was a different situation. But the worst part in hindsight is that he didn't learn his lesson about the importance of not keeping the wolf stuff bottled up...

Did you see any parallels between the Oz and Angel(us) situations?  This is probably the main reason that I like this episode. And at least in my reading, it provides false hope. I feel like the parallels between Oz's situation (becoming a creature he can't control, but with the workaround of being able to be locked up) and Angel(us)'s (being evil without a soul but good when the soul has the demon locked up) foreshadow that the Scoobies will find a way to re-ensoul Angel and might lead you to believe that Buffy won't have to kill him, since Angel doesn't deserve that anymore than Oz does (at least in my view).

Giles says a werewolf "acts on pure instinct. No conscience, predatory and aggressive." It's not motivated by an evil demon like a vampire, but s/he is still pure id in the way that vampires are, too. There's no check on their aggression. But most days of the month, Oz is a normal guy, and Angel is a hero when he's got his soul in place. I felt like the reference to The Pack emphasized that idea, too, since no one held Xander responsible for his actions while hyena'd (especially given his fake amnesia).

Also couldn't help but notice the similarities between "A werewolf in love" and "A vampire in love with a slayer?"...

Thoughts on Angelus in his role as Big Bad? God, he's so creepy. Those few moments with Theresa were the best part of the episode, I thought. I like the decision to make his presence felt but not focus too much on him directly, since Spike definitely seemed less scary the more times that Buffy faced him and won without killing him.

What did you make of that huggy moment in the funeral home between Buffy and Xander? I remember being very uncomfortable watching it the first time. I *really* didn't want the show to go there. At first I thought I was just reading too much into it, but then when Xander said, "Oh, no, my life's not too complicated," it seemed that the writers intended for us to pick up on something.

Here's the scripted version of the scene, which was a little longer:

Quote:
Vampire Theresa goes POOF-

--REVEALING Xander standing there with the collapsed easel.

XANDER
Are you okay?

Buffy sits up, severely shaken.

BUFFY
This isn't happening…

Xander drops the easel; kneels down to Buffy.

XANDER
Buffy-

He touches her on the shoulder. She immediately folds herself into his arms.

BUFFY
He's going to keep coming after me. Until…

XANDER
Don't let him get to you.

It's clear that he already has.

XANDER (cont'd)
He's not the same guy you knew.

They continue to HUG. A little too long. They pull apart a bit and look at each other.

BUFFY
Xander-

Uh-oh.

BUFFY (cont'd)
Thanks.

Xander smiles. Finally, they break. Buffy composes herself.

BUFFY (cont'd)
Well. I've got a lot to do tonight.

XANDER
Yeah.

BUFFY
I should probably go do it.

She heads out. Xander watches after her, then follows, MUMBLING and SHAKING HIS HEAD.

XANDER
Oh, no. My life's not too complicated…


Just glad that they didn't go any further (outside of magic) with this, since it would have been so complicated. And aside from that part, the scene was great. Xander can be so petty but his devotion to Buffy (and Willow) is also wonderful.

Favorite lines / scenes?  

Buffy: Ah, he'll come around. What guy could resist your wily Willow charms?
Willow: At last count, all of them. Maybe more.
Buffy: Well, none of them know a thing. They all get an 'F' in Willow.
Willow: But I want Oz to get an 'A', and, oh, one of those gold stars.

Giles: Yes, let's not jump to any conclusions.
Buffy: I didn't jump. I took a tiny step, and there conclusions were.

Willow (re: Xander): He's so busy looking around at everything he doesn't have, he doesn't even realize what he *does* have.

The entire scene with Oz on the phone with his aunt Maureen is so entertaining.

Anything stand out on rewatch? I didn't really think of it until the episode was over, but I did wonder how Jenny was doing!


A few notes from the script available online...

I thought it was funny that the script refers to Larry's hangers-on as "Larryettes" a la the Cordettes.
Quote:
Willow joins BUFFY in the lounge as LARRY and some LARRYETTES come over to Oz. Larry stares leeringly at the girls.


This bit was trimmed:
Quote:
OZ (cont'd)
My cousin Jordy. Just got his grown-up teeth in. Does not like to be tickled.

WILLOW
(leaning in)
Looks like it healed already.

OZ
The emotional scar is still there.


This scene was cut (deservedly so, I feel):

Quote:
Willow JOINS Xander and Cordelia in their group. Xander is pulling a large PADDED HELMET over his head.

XANDER
Be gentle with me.

CORDELIA
(to Willow)
You first. I wouldn't want to be accused to taking your place in line.

WILLOW
Oh, I think you pushed your way to the front long before this.

CORDELIA
Hey, I can't help it if I get the spotlight just because some people blend into the background.

WILLOW
Well, maybe some people could see better if you weren't standing on the auction block, shaking your wares.

CORDELIA
Sorry, we haven't all perfected that phony 'girl next door' bit.

WILLOW
You could be the girl next door, too. If Xander lived next to a brothel!

They BORE INTO EACH OTHER, breathing heavily. Xander, completely suited up, calls out to them.

XANDER
(innocently)
Okay, who wants a piece of me?

Cordelia and Willow look at one another.

SMASH CUT TO:

BAM!

Xander reels from a PUNCH thrown by Cordelia.

OOF!

He buckles over from a KICK, administered by Willow.

The girls WORK TOGETHER, eventually taking Xander to the ground. He looks up at them, confused and pleading:

XANDER
Why…?
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode?
I was surprised by how much I liked it. But it's like you said, coming right after Surprise/Innocence makes it seem like a detour. I don't think I initially appreciated it as much as I should have because I was still reeling from the enormous thing that had just happened and impatient to get on with that storyline. I'm really enjoying this rewatch and each episode individually now that I know what's to come and can just settle down and soak up all the goodness.



What did you think of the development of Willow and Oz's relationship?
The Willow/Oz relationship is my second favorite ship so I pretty much love everything about it. I love that Oz seems so fascinated by Willow and that Willow is moving on from her Xander crush. And I love that Oz is making sure Willow is over her Xander crush before commencing with the smoochies.


How did you feel about the way Oz handled his emergent wolfiness?

At first he seemed so nonchalant about it...."Is Jortie a werewolf"?...I laughed so hard at that line. But then he was so worried that he had hurt someone and I thought his fear about what had happened to him was all over his face. I love the low key way he approaches everything.....he wakes up naked in the woods and goes "huh"?


Still feeling the love for Oz.
I don't think I could love him more. I think Oz is highly intelligent but even more than that he is emotionally intelligent and that makes him so very appealing.


Did you see any parallels between the Oz and Angel(us) situations?

Quote:
This is probably the main reason that I like this episode. And at least in my reading, it provides false hope.
Also couldn't help but notice the similarities between "A werewolf in love" and "A vampire in love with a slayer?"...


I agree....although I think I was already filled with hope that Angel would return. I was pretty much obsessed with the notion for the remainder of season 2.

Thoughts on Angelus in his role as Big Bad?
Is it wrong that I find Angelus hot? I mean Angel is a babe but Angelus with that smile....I'm heartsick about what has happened but fascinated with Angelus at the same time. Killing Theresa made Angel being gone so very real. It also threw a keg in my hope that everything would be returned to normal. Silly me for ever thinking things could go back to the way they were.

What did you make of that huggy moment in the funeral home between Buffy and Xander?

I wasn't as bothered by it as you were. Xander apparently doesn't know what he wants. He has Cordelia all about him and yet all he wants to talk about is Willow/Oz....I think he's jealous about not being #1 in Willow's heart.....And he's still got feelings for Buffy...Now that the Angelus thing has happened I think he see's the possibility of an opening with Buffy....His complicated life is one of his own making. What surprised me was that Xander offered real comfort...

"Xander: Don't let him get to you. He's not the same guy you knew".

I wasn't sure if I bought it since he always viewed Angel/Angelus as the same....but it was the right thing to say even if he had ulterior motives. I really didn't get any kind of shippy vibe from Buffy. I think she was just shook that Angelus had killed Theresa to send her a message. She let Xander give her comfort but moved away pretty quickly. We know from her conversation with Willow that she thinks of Angel constantly.....she went a whole 2 minutes without thinking of him. Buffy loves Angel and is now traumatized by knowing that she was the reason for Angel losing his soul...It doesn't make sense that she would in the midst of all this look at Xander and think maybe I do think of him like that. That's how I saw it anyway.


Favorite lines / scenes?


Xander: I know what it's like to crave the taste of freshly killed
meat, to be taken over by those uncontrollable urges.

Buffy: You said you didn't remember anything about that.



Oz: Well, you know, like, stayed out of your way for awhile.

Willow: I don't know. I'm kind of okay with you being *in* my way.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonnaleah wrote:
Is it wrong that I find Angelus hot?


Right or wrong, I think it's safe to say you have a lot of company. Smile

bonnaleah wrote:
I wasn't as bothered by it as you were.


That's probably because you have more faith than I do! You are the most wonderful B/A fan and I'm so pleased to get this chance to rewatch with you! Heart
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You are the most wonderful B/A fan and I'm so pleased to get this chance to rewatch with you! Heart


Aww, what a sweet thing to say. Thank You.
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x16 Bewitched, Bothered and Bewildered
Written by Marti Noxon
Directed by James A. Contner
Original air date: Feb. 10, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Things get dangerous when all the women in Sunnydale - except Cordelia - are after Xander due to a love spell gone wrong."

1. Overall feelings about this episode? How did you react to Xander's spell?
2. What did you think of the theme of obsession and the parallels with Angelus and Buffy?
3. Do you think Xander got off too easy at the end?
4. Thoughts on the Spike/Drusilla/Angelus triangle? And Dru/Xander? Smile
5. How did you feel about Cordelia in this episode? What did you think about the spell not working on her?
6. Thoughts about Amy or any of the girls/women caught up in the spell?
7. What did you think of Willow's situation?
8. How did you react to Oz punching Xander?
9. Favorite lines/scenes?
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 26, 2017 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode?

It's another one of my favorites, but then the majority of my favorite episodes come from S2 and S3. I like the opening scene of Xander keeping Buffy company while she patrols, especially now that she doesn't have Angel with her. I know she's perfectly capable of going it alone but after everything that's happened she really needs her friends around her and it's so cool that Xander is sensitive enough to know that. Also nice seeing Xander asking for Buffy's opinion about the necklace he bought for Cordy...and Buffy's total honesty about never accepting Cordy and thinking Xander deserves someone better. We are reminded again that Xander still has a thing for Buffy when he says the only other person he has an interest in is unavailable. This I think is just more evidence against any thing shippy in last weeks funeral home scene. Buffy is unavailable because she is still in love with Angel.



How did you react to Xander's spell?

I think it's telling that the love spell he wanted wasn't so that Cory would love him and they would live happily ever after, but that she would love him so he could break up with her and make her feel bad. His spell was all about getting even with Cordy. Xander obviously doesn't care as much about Cordy as she cares for him. As we see from his later scene with Buffy, he would drop Cordy in a second if he could have Buffy. But Cordy was secretly wearing the necklace he gave her, and I thought she was really going against her heart when she broke up with him.


Thoughts on the Spike/Drusilla/Angelus triangle? And Dru/Xander? Smile


Poor Spike. Angelus knows his girl better than he does. I love watching Angelus toy with Spike about Drusilla, and it's so obvious that Dru is really into Angelus. I'm not sure if the heart was just a way to needle Spike or if Angelus really wanted to please Drusilla on Valentines Day. Interesting that Buffy got beautiful roses....a heart with the note "soon" would have been just as creepy...maybe even more.


How did you feel about Cordelia in this episode? What did you think about the spell not working on her?

Cordy grew on me in this episode. After all the guys we've seen her go through...Xander is the one who has grabbed her heart. All she ever really cared about was being popular, and being part of the in crowd and now she has picked Xander over all of that. That says so much about her feelings for him, and it's warmed me up to her. I thought it was a pretty cool twist that Cordy was immune to the spell.



Thoughts about Amy or any of the girls/women caught up in the spell?

I thought it was hilarious when Jenny was rubbing Xander's arm, and when Joyce was nuzzling his neck....loved that lunch lady was even after Xander...But Drusilla was the kicker. Heck when Xander was walking down the school hallway it even seemed as if the guys were eyeing him. I think the ep could have gotten pretty dark without the funny scenes but it was perfectly balanced.


What did you think of Willow's situation?

Yeah her part got dark really fast. It started out so funny and then she's swinging an ax. I kinda hated that she was so affected by the spell, but I guess it hit her harder because she already had feelings for Xander.

How did you react to Oz punching Xander?

Oz standing up for his girl. I loved it.


Favorite lines/scenes?

A hand grabs Angelus by the shoulder, pulls him up and throws him aside
into a tree. He hits it hard and slides down to the ground. Xander jumps
to a conclusion and looks up at his savior.

Xander: Buffy, how...

Drusilla: Don't fret, kitten. (helps him up) Mummy's here.

Angelus: I don't know what you're up to, Dru, but it *doesn't* amuse!

She growls at Angelus and he growls back.

Drusilla: If you harm one hair on this boy's head... (strokes his hair)

Angelus: You've gotta be kidding. Him?

Drusilla: Just because I finally found a *real* man... (turns Xander to
face her)

Angelus: I guess I really *did* drive you crazy. (backs away)

Drusilla: (runs her fingers over Xander's lips) Your face is a poem.
(moans) I can read it.

Xander: (terrified) Really? It doesn't say 'spare me' by any chance?

Drusilla: Shhh. (kisses him) How do you feel about eternal life?

Xander: (trembles with fear) We couldn't just start with a coffee? A
movie, maybe?
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode? How did you react to Xander's spell? I find this episode to be one of the most enjoyable to watch. I love the humor, and every twist fits so perfectly together. It's a standalone episode that focuses on characters we already know and plays on the themes of the season in an entertaining way. What's not to like?

Well, OK, Xander's motivation is pretty gross here, and I wish he didn't end up back together with Cordelia. It's satisfying for the episode to come full circle, but I think he proved he wasn't boyfriend material.

bonnaleah wrote:
I think it's telling that the love spell he wanted wasn't so that Cordy would love him and they would live happily ever after, but that she would love him so he could break up with her and make her feel bad. His spell was all about getting even with Cordy.


While there was a parallel with Angelus and the girls/women obsessed with Xander, I thought there was also a bit of an interesting connection with Angelus and Xander, too. Xander was upset with Cordelia because he had feelings for her (even if they weren't the strongest) and then he felt humiliated and wanted to punish her for making him care. Which I think is pretty similar to Angelus' motivation. He wants to torture Buffy mostly because Angel loved her so much and she made him feel human.

I read a theory in a comment somewhere that the spell actually did work, it was just a very slow-acting spell, since over the next several months Cordelia did develop strong feelings for Xander and he did eventually subject her to the hell that he had been going through by cheating on her and making her the laughingstock of the school. Oof.

bonnaleah wrote:
I like the opening scene of Xander keeping Buffy company while she patrols, especially now that she doesn't have Angel with her. I know she's perfectly capable of going it alone but after everything that's happened she really needs her friends around her and it's so cool that Xander is sensitive enough to know that.


I liked it, too. Very cute scene. Though I did think the exchange at the end was a little weird.

Quote:
Buffy: Sorry to say, Xand, slaying is a tad more perilous than dating.
Xander: Well, you're obviously not dating Cordelia.


Given what's happened in Buffy's love life, I'm surprised she would say this at all. At this point in the season, dating seems way more perilous than slaying!

Thoughts on the Spike/Drusilla/Angelus triangle? And Dru/Xander? I don't think I want to know what Angelus had planned to do to Buffy when he got to her bedroom, but this whole exchange beforehand is brilliant.

Quote:
Spike: Why don't you rip her lungs out? It might make an impression.
Angelus: Lacks... poetry.
Spike: It doesn't have to. What rhymes with lungs?
Drusilla: Don't worry, Spike. Angel always knows...what speaks to a girl's heart.


bonnaleah wrote:
Poor Spike. Angelus knows his girl better than he does. I love watching Angelus toy with Spike about Drusilla, and it's so obvious that Dru is really into Angelus.


On rewatch, I keep thinking about how easily Dru's affections have been diverted from Spike (or at least divided). I wonder if she's been waiting 130+ years to finally have Angelus around without Darla in the way. Smile

I was thinking, too, that Dru/Xander makes a twisted kind of sense, since Dru is pretty adoring of Angelus, and Xander is adoring of Buffy, despite them being paired off with Spike and Cordelia. (Speaking of Spike and Cordelia, that BOTH of them would later try for a relationship in which they would essentially come second to that same romantic rival -- or the souled version -- again is so weird, but I guess it just reinforces B/A as the core relationship of the 'verse.)

How did you feel about Cordelia in this episode? 

bonnaleah wrote:
Cordy grew on me in this episode.


Yes, definitely. That scene where she takes off the necklace behind her locker door really gets me. It makes sense that she would have to have real feelings for Xander to want to go against her friends. It's too bad that he's always looking around at what he doesn't have, as Willow put it in the last ep.

What did you think of Willow's situation? 

bonnaleah wrote:
Yeah her part got dark really fast. It started out so funny and then she's swinging an ax. I kinda hated that she was so affected by the spell, but I guess it hit her harder because she already had feelings for Xander.


Man, the hits keep coming for poor Willow with the Xander thing. At least she has Oz. On my first watch of this episode, I thought that maybe Cordy was impervious to the spell because she already had feelings for Xander, but that theory fell apart on rewatch, because though Willow is moving on, I think she has deeper feelings for Xander than Cordelia does at this point.

How did you react to Oz punching Xander?  Xander definitely deserved it. But I loved how Oz helped him up after. And I also loved that Oz kept up the hunt for the Buffy rat, even without fully knowing what was going on.

Favorite lines/scenes?

Xander: I have a plan: we use me as bait.
Buffy: You mean make Angel come after you?
Xander: No, I mean chop me into little pieces and stick me on hooks for fish to nibble at 'cause it would be more fun than *my* life.

Cordelia: And keep your mom-aged mitts off my boyfriend. Former!

Xander: Mostly, but, uh... Willow won't even talk to me.
Buffy: Any particular reason she should?
Xander: How much groveling are we talking here?
Buffy: Oh, a month, at least. Xander, come on, I mean... this is worse for her than anyone. She loved you before you invoked the great Roofie spirit.

The script was very similar to what aired, but a couple of things to note...

The first reference to Amy is pretty funny.
Quote:
The bunch comes up by AMY, daughter of the cheerleading trophy.


There were also a few more lines that highlighted that Xander and Cordelia were back where their relationship began when they went into Buffy's basement:
Quote:
The other two women who came in the back run up and join Joyce. Freaked, Xander and Cordelia race for-

INT. BUFFY'S BASEMENT - NIGHT

-where they lock the door.

CORDELIA
Déjà vu much? Here's another good reason not to date you. People are always trying to kill me when I'm with you! So - what do we do now? Wait for Buffy to come?

XANDER
I... wouldn't hold my breath.


And apparently when Oz was searching for the Buffy rat, he was supposed to sing a few lines from the theme song to the 1972 movie "Ben," which was a horror movie about a rat. (I had to look this up, as I had never heard of it.)
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sybil
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 27, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is the story and I always wonder why Buffy didn't jump. She KNEW another slayer would be triggered, as Kendra died--so she was "off the hook" in her duty; and she already died twice, and she actually married this man forever(as was done by warriors, and it was ONLY after Christianity that such "handfasting" was declared "good for a year" until a priest could be called. This death would be the third.

It IS exactly what they did in season eight, as "where" they "transcended" and became God/Goddess was IN HELL. (UP is hell, recall how Angel fell DOWN, when returning to the world, as fallen angels do?)

First off, Druscilla is not mad. She exists without time. (see String Theory and the multiverse). This is why her POV is ‘confused’ for past, present and future coincide…there is no time. This is also known as “the forever moment.”

And that is why it is no small feat that Spike “craves” such (in his dead human memory) t that “drives” such union with “the one.” (bottom line, Spike has to figure out HE is the perfect “poem” and that means his own unification of male/female principles).

Dru is indeed his “wise woman” in opposition. Not Buffy. Buffy and Spike are “like with like” if one recalls her “spunk” and ability to see differently, even farther (as does the poet) in the “discipline” of her journey through life as the slayer. (Hence it so important Spike finish “the poem”—his full expression of FEMALE principle in a male persona in his ‘journey’ rather than have his guts torn to pieces as having failed “the poem” and, no I don’t mean fail Buffy, the muse). THIS is also what drives Angelus to create his masterpiece, but he is looking “outside of himself” to Buffy, as his muse, and all he gets for his trouble, is called “insanity.” THAT is why Buffy with Angelus kinda doesn’t work, as she is, for she already is ‘human’ and keeps telling “him” she needs to grow up. She knows “what to do” but must learn further what to see.

The cost of her great power to slay is in balance with her prophetic dreams and both reside in the burden of responsibility/discipline to that “knowing” no other shoulders—other than Angel/Angelus, but his “knowing” is couched in both Christian and older mythologies. And yes, I read a fic story that the girl favored by the Romany was the girl who could undo the curse—and dumb as a post is not “intelligence” but speaking true to the station she holds with her people: banishment for Angelus in recursing him. (She was seduced and didn’t listen to her own “instincts,” either. Buffy is charged with seeing (knowing what to see) . Druscilla always had the sight, but didn’t know what “to do.”

Druscilla is “a dark sister” to Angel. (as are all the brunettes e.g. Faith, Cordelia, Fred) and they cannot transform him, but can protect him).

Also notice that Buffy insists on “failing her discipline and instincts—her own prophetic sight”—when she kisses Angel’s face in the ice rink stating she doesn’t see the demon (right there in front of her (everyone’s) face, including Kendra, who indeed makes dead flesh hold actual existence in the world—that plane of existence, anyway. Because she has “second sight” that of the lens of true love that would KNOW him, WHATEVER form. And that is correct, because having the “sight” is magical, having second sight transcends all planes. THAT makes Buffy and Angel “the one.”

And that is proven in always “seeing him” when he is Angel or Angelus or in hell (see “Anne”) or not even “around”—and he actually was, for example. SHE is the means to his transfiguration and it was shown in season eight at the cost of “the world” her lessons learned from the father, who is “displaced” by the lover (choice)—the world of childhood. (The “writers” literally put Joss-Xander—the only human and non boogity person in the piece) into “leaving the life” joined with DAWN, who is Buffy herself doing the growing up, right “at the beginning,” as adults. It was the “romance” derailed when David Boreanaz “stepped over bodies” in the casting room for Angel. It is left for Buffy and Angel to STILL accomplish. Don’t care anymore, as this Buffy of the comics cannot learn and THAT is her power TO find her UNIQUE gift and it is through death, but it really has to be said, it is only in being herself: MERCY. (So the curse answer is to “give them what A/A (hee) want”).

And Angel, who IS mythic in every story ever told in “what makes a human being” including those of the great religions, in the “telling of the tale” that got “offloaded” on to the completely wrong character Spike, with the rise of ATS, which is what changed the entire story to be “the redemption of Spike” and, oh yeah, the slayer still rules…with all her aspects shown in thousands of other people-slayers. She is complete. Uh…no…She remains in the land of the PSYCHOLOGICAL PLANE or that of childhood. And that is the failing of BTVS in ever “pairing her up” and not just * killingI* her the third time already. (As is required of “death is your gift” (as part of life/death/love in all trinity tales) a decent fairytale in ‘happily ever after’—the “after” part awaited B/A shippers, of course:

So. Angel/Angelus ARE BOTH “satisfied” to satisfy the curse that UNDOES it, as it is written and all curses are written. Now most do a porn fest and that doesn’t work. One way is “the underworld journey” and that means both Buffy and Angel are dead to do it. It becomes the “transition” story into awareness and adulthood with “mortal” and “normal” as each must “do” the other’s desire in “mortal” and “normal.”

First off, Angelus was driven mad by Buffy. LOVE? NO! He couldn’t keep her by turning her, but he couldn’t kill her and keep her. That is why “turning Buffy” defeats what fascinates him about her. She doesn’t break and live in that “forever moment’ Druscilla does. She shows HER HUMANITY and THAT is what Angelus “can’t get enough of.” He feeds on it, he craves it in all the PAIN HE PROMOTES IN PEOPLE TO DRINK IT FROM THEIR BLOOD TO FEEL ONE THING: alive.

It requires Angelus the demon to literally drag “dead Buffy” —obviously his opposite, in every way, too into the ‘suspended moment’ and (I used the story of Osiris—but KILLED the children/selves of Dawn and Connor—to flip the myths, as does Joss) Buffy can then drag the pieces (bones…ha ha) into this same realm of suspended moment. How does she “give them both what they want? Instead of “making love to Angel, she makes ‘love’ to Angelus, by hauling off and sending Angel into every torture devised that he THINKS he is required to suffer, even as she “joins” them both to her physically taking their hands (she is MALE principle, folks, and always has been) to unify the duality of Angel and Angelus in this place that is “physical” in the reality of thought, even as we speak to ‘mind’ (will and intention required in magic) which can free all, even as this trinity destroys the world.

I prefer “sex magic” in “the limb” as a penis and one can do actual coitus to bring Angel into physical reality (literally birthing her lover, as is done in myth). Even Mary and Jesus, for Mary loved Jesus as her Lord, even if she married, no differently than Jesus the man and Jew would; Jesus didn’t destroy any Jewish custom but “became” their meaning incarnate. It is loathing of the body (sex/lust) that made Jesus “untouched” and that happened later in history (and cutting out a few books of the Bible, each “sect” of new Christianity deciding what was “true” for themselves—Marriage is a symbol of transformed humanity—in some aspects).

I wrote a book, lost it twice and I do what I said above, but I “separate them” as is “normal,” using the physical Antipodes of Christchurch and A Coruna (Galicia) with Xander (human) dealing with Angel and Willow (who is magical and can cross “the aetheric planes”). Cordy who “died” simply grew up and is obviously in New York and she does indeed marry Xander, who IS an architect (Orpheus. Which is why HE can find Angel, even believing Buffy is dead: “She’d kill me, if I don’t.”

All others are “all about Buffy-aspect” and remain in the world of “childhood”—yes, Buffy arrives in this world pregnant and thus, does create the mythical twins, I “bump off” to go to Giles’ world, etc for the whole thing to go again, but it is done as was in “Fray.”

(I saved “the kids” at the wedding, prior their birth, of course, with the stupid bauble Orb of Thesalus, lobbed to Giles in the last moment because the whole wedding is a big deal. They can’t know why “the instinct,” but it was “a leftover” to the “second sight” of true love from childhood and it will serve to save the boy years later; and start the whole mess over, but I use Joyce’s “other sister” mentioned, besides the one sewing curtains, as a slayer there, for example and others we know “left behind.” The point is, each time, the child must destroy the world. And “life is pain” for Buffy is Joss’s single watchword for Buffy, but I think she deserves Angel, which is her happiness, even as “normal” was her goal and “mortal” is his, “with death as a gift to both” .” (Other stuff happens until the B/A final death and it ends.
“Buffy.”
“Angel?” (together:)
Let’s go get our kids.” THAT is their heaven: Love. As it truly is.

So…the curse is not stupid, it is misunderstood. And the above is one way to undo it by not casting another spell. Jakers…. The OPPOSITES both have to be dealt with, and what makes one happy is the cost to the other.

So do that.

And that is why Ducks’ story actually can extend into “this world” and works for me, as one example, for she is “pure pagan,” but truly shows/understands love is “IT”)

Druscilla is Buffy’s opposite (even in hair color) in the sight meant, too. Joss actually does this for us, as tv is visual, and makes this world a reality for those willing to “see.” (Notice the adults (are absent) don’t see and “make excuses” with their rational minds and “disbelief” as “loss of faith” and “rational thought “ in the supernatural, is the cost to transition from a thing called CHILDHOOD. Thus, the entire journey is for Buffy to become an adult. We assume she will manage to also be a “good person.” (after all, she is merciful, the thing needed NOT because it is deserved). And the “good” is often explored in the nature of “desire.” Desire is usually defined as “less” as only a thing of the body—is why torturing it is so “acceptable”—is, at worst, evil, and that is too bad. The need for the saints to be in union with God is an * absolute, * too. For example.


Joss ONLY allows “like with like” in human beings as Joss believes “friendship” is the basis of a successful relationship. Most do. I don’t. Not for story that achieves things like LOVE. And it ain’t just romance.

Faith, as a slayer, is an obvious “opposite” to Spike, while “like with like” Druscilla has “the sight” for “the poet.” Gee. One can achieve enlightenment in “perverse” order, not how Buffy and Angel do it, BTW, so there is that. In myth, of course.

The “wrong way” to go about it was seen in Season 6 and drove Spike’ “search for a soul”—which is predicated on some sudden awareness and “soulness” of guilt/sorrow/remorse (!!!) that he “hurt the girl” —uh, no…without a SOUL?? Anyway. That idea would have been used for Spike “topping Angelus,” with whom he also “has a (same sex, but “opposite principles”) affair” and most fan fic writers write a lot of porn explaining such body-mind unifications.

The fact should have shown that it is Buffy who was transformed, which was badly patched together with a “statement” and muggy reasoning in season 7, transformed into issues of power, in which Buffy actually never did regain her female power (and that of the right person to forgive: HERSELF for handing OVER her power, over and over to past pain because she CAN LEARN) after rape, but became a “remake” of several myths, I did like, including for Spike, e.g. Kali dancing over skulls, and Spike “killed” and “done” for his third death and actually regard “the books of love and war” (See Shiva and see Vishnu and Brahma—particuarly the wife who rides a lion, as you might have seen “wander off” in season eight to “the tiger” who is Angel Angelus).

I think the mythology of body and soul is the essential problematic approach to explaining Angel and Angelus, and is itself a transformation of older mythologies in which body and soul must both be in play for proper personal “rebirth” or “enlightenment.” (And the story of Jesus’ death and resurrection is actually the old myth “properly” reworked, in which God the Father (male principle) and Jesus (female principle) and transformational Mindfulness in such perfect union of all opposition thought to that of truth: Being (the Holy Spirit, who is also “material”) IS * transfiguration. *

I loathe the hatred of the body, in most religions today, particularly lobbed against women because (today’s religions are patriarchal) it is “the woman’s fault” for “starting sin” with “desire,” and “failing man” by arousing lust in (another ) the body to lose “mindfulness” of some Supreme (Patriarchal) God. Destroy her, achieve perfection, except men end up (in wars) in monasteries and that would end humanity.

I believe in the mystery of love and it’s artful balance, as much as I hate that truth that hunger drives “killing to live.” I wish we were breatharians! Ha! It takes time to actually breathe. And think. And feel. It is one reason I love B/A. He stops her breath and she starts his and that is mind-body, too.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for adding your thoughts, sybil! I particularly loved this bit about Dru:

Quote:
First off, Druscilla is not mad. She exists without time. (see String Theory and the multiverse). This is why her POV is 'confused' for past, present and future coincide…there is no time. This is also known as "the forever moment." 


And this was the most amazing summation of what Passion is about so I'm glad we're getting to that ep next:

Quote:
First off, Angelus was driven mad by Buffy. LOVE? NO! He couldn’t keep her by turning her, but he couldn’t kill her and keep her. That is why "turning Buffy" defeats what fascinates him about her. She doesn’t break and live in that "forever moment" Druscilla does. She shows HER HUMANITY and THAT is what Angelus "can't get enough of." He feeds on it, he craves it in all the PAIN HE PROMOTES IN PEOPLE TO DRINK IT FROM THEIR BLOOD TO FEEL ONE THING: alive


And I hope we'll get a chance to read your book!
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