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Buffy Season 2: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x17 Passion
Written by Ty King
Directed by Michael E. Gershman
Original air date: Feb. 24, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Angel continues to torment Buffy; Jenny tries to curse Angel with a soul again, but he stops her - permanently."

1. Overall feelings about this episode? What did you think of Angelus' narration?
2. "You're still the only thing he thinks about." Thoughts about Angelus' obsession with Buffy and his attempts to torment her?
3. What did you think of the scene in which Angelus kills Jenny? What about when Giles finds her?
4. Thoughts on the escalating conflict between Spike and Angelus/Dru?
5. What did you think of Giles' revenge scenario and Buffy's reaction to it?
6. Anything stand out on rewatch?
7. Favorite lines/scenes?

Also, if you're not a big opera buff, Mark Field's post includes a detailed breakdown of the use of the duet from La Bohème when Giles makes his discovery.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel like I should apologize for triple-posting in this thread. Three helpings of Grace in a row is kind of a lot. Sorry!

Overall feelings about this episode? What did you think of Angelus' narration? The amazingly good ones are always the hardest to talk about for me. I think this episode is basically perfect. I would change nothing of significance. I liked the voiceovers as a way to set the episode apart and to give us deeper insight into the theme.

I read part of an essay that pointed out that this episode culminates a series of episodes that focus on each of the main characters' romantic relationships: Surprise/Innocence was B/A; Phases was Willow/Oz; BB&B was Xander/Cordelia; and Passion is Giles/Jenny. Obvious, of course, but I hadn't really noticed. Each one of the latter three also has a Buffy/Angelus theme: possession, obsession, death. In killing Jenny, Angelus makes it pretty obvious that Buffy is going to have to kill him.

But the clattering of the re-ensouling spell disc to the floor does offer a bit of wild hope.

"You're still the only thing he thinks about." Thoughts about Angelus' obsession with Buffy and his attempts to torment her?  It's all really creepy, but after Jenny's death (and the horrific staging), I think the thing that got to me the most was that conversation with Joyce. He knew just what to say to maximize the icy sense of dread in that scene. Buffy kept her cool rather amazingly throughout the episode, but especially in that scene, I thought.

What did you think of the scene in which Angelus kills Jenny? What about when Giles finds her? I think pretty much everyone adores Giles at this point, so the scene of him finding Jenny's body is so brutal. Does anyone else yell at Giles not to go inside every time you watch this episode? I appreciate it even more after learning how carefully and deliberately the music was chosen. It's easy to imagine Angelus knowing exactly what to play to twist the knife -- two people singing about the "innocent passion of first love," as the quote in Mark's blog puts it.

RIP, Jenny. Sad

What did you think of Giles' revenge scenario and Buffy's reaction to it?  It's so heart-wrenching when Buffy tells Giles: "You can't leave me. I can't do this alone."

Earlier in the episode, Giles said: "I know how hard this is for you. (gets a look from Buffy) All right, I don't. But as the Slayer, you don't have the luxury of being a slave to your passions. You mustn't let Angel get to you. No matter how provocative his behavior may become."

In the end, Giles was understandably unwilling to take his own advice. But Buffy basically tells him the same thing in a much more emotional way, along with a punch.

Anything stand out on rewatch? Jenny tells Giles, "I was raised by the people that Angel hurt the most." In flashbacks we see on AtS, Darla is arguably even more to blame than Angelus. She is the one who chooses and kidnaps the Romani girl, even if Angelus does kill her, and Darla kills the Kalderash elder and tells Spike and Drusilla to show no mercy to the people in the camp. Spike kills more of Jenny's ancestors than Angelus does. Imagine how everything would have changed if Darla had been the one to be cursed with a soul.

Favorite lines/scenes? 

Buffy: It's so weird... Every time something like this happens, my first instinct is still to run to Angel. I can't believe it's the same person. He's completely different from the guy that I knew.
Willow: Well, sort of, except...
Buffy: Except what?
Willow: You're still the only thing he thinks about.

Willow (to Giles re: Buffy's talk with her mom): Sure! Like what would you say? (AH's delivery is hilarious)


There were some interesting differences in the shooting script online.

I put together all the Angelus voiceover parts so you can see them back to back (I think the aired version is much better):

Opening voiceover:

Script: Passion... It is born ... and though uninvited, unwelcome, unwanted ... like a cancer, it takes root. It festers. It bleeds. It scabs ... only to rupture, and bleed anew. It grows ... it thrives ... until it consumes. It lives ... so, it must die ... in time.

Transcript: Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... waiting... And though unwanted... unbidden... it will stir... open its jaws, and howl. It speaks to us... guides us... Passion rules us all. And we obey. What other choice do we have?

Window scene voiceover:

Script: Passion ... it drives some to distraction ... some to despair ... some to vengeance ... It drives some to murder ... and others to madness.

Transcript: Passion is the source of our finest moments. The joy of love... the clarity of hatred... and the ecstasy of grief.

Ending voiceover:

Script: Passion ... is the source of hope ... and the cause of despair ... It is the source of life ... and the cause of death.

Transcript: It hurts sometimes more than we can bear. If we could live without passion, maybe we'd know some kind of peace. But we would be hollow. Empty rooms, shuttered and dank...Without passion, we'd be truly dead.

I've seen some people suggest that it could be Angel narrating instead of Angelus, and reading it like this, I can see an interpretation of the aired version (not the scripted one) as Angel explaining why he doesn't regret what happened with Buffy, even though the results were so horrible for him.


The script actually has all the unheard dialogue written out for the actors during the scene when Giles calls to tell Buffy and Willow that Angelus has killed Jenny.

Quote:
EXT. BUFFY'S FRONT YARD - LOOKING IN THROUGH THE FRONT WINDOW INTO THE LIVING ROOM/DINING ROOM - MOMENTS LATER

WE'RE TRACKING BACK VERY SLOWLY, as WE WATCH Buffy and Willow through the window.

Buffy is reliving the "sex talk" she just ended with her mother.

WILLOW
(unheard dialog)
So, was it horrible?

ANGEL (V.O.)
Passion… it drives some to distraction…

BUFFY
(unheard dialog)
It wasn't too horrible…
Then. Buffy reacts to the (UNHEARD) RINGING TELEPHONE.

ANGEL (V.O.)
…some to despair…

She lifts the receiver with her usual upbeat mood, and turns to lean with her back against the wall.

BUFFY
(unheard dialog, into phone)
Hello…?

GILES
(unheard dialog, over the phone)
Buffy?

BUFFY
(unheard dialog, into phone)
Giles! Hey, we finished the sp-

GILES
(unheard dialog, into phone)
Jenny… Ms. Calendar… she's been killed…

On the phone, Buffy's face goes slack and she starts to slide down the wall until she's sitting on the floor.

BUFFY
(unheard dialog, into phone)
What…?

ANGEL (V.O.)
…some to vengeance…

GILES
(unheard dialog, into phone)
It was Angel…

Willow notices, crosses quickly to Buffy, kneels down in front of her, as Buffy lets the phone receiver fall to the floor. -

WILLOW
(unheard dialog)
Buffy…?

-Willow picks up the phone.-

WILLOW
(unheard dialog, into phone)
Giles?

GILES
(unheard dialog, into phone)
Willow. Angel's killed Jenny.

-After a moment, the shock of the conversation begins to register on her face.-

Willow CRIES OUT, --

WILLOW
(unheard dialog, anguished cry)
What? No… Oh, no…

-the first sound WE CAN ACTUALLY HEAR OUTSIDE, as the faint MUFFLED PAIN leaks out through the window, into the night air.

Joyce enters, sees Willow crying, goes to her, holds her.

JOYCE
(unheard dialog)
Willow! My god, Buffy, what's wrong?
Has something happened?

ANGLE: ANGEL

Watching. Loving it.

ANGEL (V.O.)
It drives some to murder… and others to madness.


There was also a longer version of the scene with Buffy and Giles in the cemetery that has Giles echo the same theme that the Angelus voiceover does.

Quote:
Giles and Buffy stand next to Jenny's grave.

GILES
In my years as a Watcher, I've buried… too many people. Some I knew… most I didn't. Jenny is the first one that I've loved.

BUFFY
Sometimes, I wonder if any good ever comes of it.

GILES
Comes of what?

BUFFY
Falling in love. Letting your emotions call the shots for you. Because if there is an upside, I sure haven't come across it. (sighs) You're right about that rule of yours. You're the Watcher, I'm the Slayer... we don't have the luxury of passion. It just gets in the way. Life's easier without it.

GILES
Yes. It's just not... life.

BUFFY
I'm sorry I couldn't kill him for you...for her...when I had the chance.


There were a couple of line changes that were interesting, too.

When Giles is near the flames in the factory:
Quote:
ANGEL
You know, even when I feed off other girls, the name I call out ... is yours.

(Replaced by: Are you gonna let your old man just burn?)

And the ending line, after Buffy says she's finally ready to kill Angelus:

Quote:
BUFFY (V.O.)
...because I know now that there's nothing that's ever going to change him back to the Angel I fell in love with.

(Replaced by: I can't hold on to the past anymore. Angel has gone. Nothing's ever gonna bring him back.)
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode?

If I absolutely had to choose a favorite episode from the series, this one would be it.

What did you think of Angelus' narration?

Passion. It lies in all of us. Sleeping... ...waiting... And though unwanted.....unbidden... it will stir....open its jaws, and howl.

This first part of the narration takes place while Angelus moves around the room watching Buffy and I think the unwanted, unbidden passion Angelus speaks of is the passion he is unwillingly feeling for Buffy. Sure he goes on to torment her but he also tenderly brushes a lock of Buffy's hair away from her face while she's sleeping. He could have so easily taken advantage of her but instead he watches her sleep and makes a drawing. He makes excuses to Spike about not killing her, and to me they ring hollow since it would have been easy to drain her while she lay sleeping. I think Buffy has stirred something in him that he wasn't expecting and that he doesn't really want to kill her....



"You're still the only thing he thinks about." Thoughts about Angelus' obsession with Buffy and his attempts to torment her?

Well as far as torment goes, all he's really done is spook her about what he might do. Telling Joyce that they had sex was bad but then he could have easily killed Joyce out in the yard if he really wanted to torment Buffy. I guess it's possible that he planned to come inside and kill Joyce, but then why bother telling her that he and Buffy had sex? And Jenny was clearly killed because she had figured out how to ensoul him, rather than as way to torment Buffy. I think his torment of Dru was way more ruthless and uncaring. I think Cordy was kinda spot on....

Giles: So Angel has decided to step up his harassment of you?

Cordelia: By sneaking in her room and leaving stuff at night? Why doesn't he just slit her throat or strangle her while she's sleeping or cut her heart out?




What did you think of the scene in which Angelus kills Jenny? What about when Giles finds her?
It was shocking. The chase scene was so nerve wracking and I was hoping and expecting for Jenny to get away. That neck snapping scene was so quick and brutal...and wow...the show isn't playing games anymore. Poor Giles. Buffy has given her ok to Jenny and Jenny has told Giles that she has fallen in love with him and Giles is so happy. Nowadays we could pretty much predict that happiness in the Buffyverse is quickly followed by tragedy, but I don't think anyone saw Jenny's death coming.



Thoughts on the escalating conflict between Spike and Angelus/Dru?

I love every scene with Spike, Dru, and Angelus. Angelus was so mean to Spike that I'm pretty sure I used to feel sympathy for Spike. I think Angelus pretty much insinuated that he was having sex with Drusilla and I love how Angelus called Spike roller boy. Angelus actually torments Spike more than he does Buffy. I also really loved the scene with Dru bringing the puppy to Spike. Evil Spike and Dru were just so entertaining and such great characters.


What did you think of Giles' revenge scenario and Buffy's reaction to it?

Giles was doing a great job of hitting Angelus with his torch for a while there and I'm so glad he was able to get a few good licks in cause I think we all needed that for him. Pretty funny how Spike stopped Dru from helping Angelus....Spike needed to see Giles whaling on Angelus too and he was so hoping Giles would win. Buffy gave Angelus a pretty good beating and it looked like she was going to win....until Angelus asked her "Are you gonna let your old man just burn?" It's so heartbreaking when Buffy and Giles cry while clinging to each other and Buffy tells Giles that he can't leave her and that she can't do this alone.



I was so sad about this very last scene. Everything seemed so hopeless.

Buffy: (narrates) I can't hold on to the past anymore. Angel has gone. Nothing's ever gonna bring him back.

Willow puts down her own books, and in the process nudges a few books aside a little. As a result the yellow disk that Jenny had set next to the books gets pushed off of the edge. It falls between the desk and the small filing cabinet next to it. It hits the floor and spins around a few times before coming to rest leaning against the side of the cabinet.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x18 Killed by Death
Written Dean Batali and Rob Des Hotel
Directed by Deran Sarafian
Original air date: March 3, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "A raging fever sends Buffy to the hospital, where her fever enables her to see a normally invisible monster that preys on children."

1. Overall feelings about this episode? How well do you think it works in the aftermath of Passion?
2. What did you think of Buffy's illness and how she and the gang responded to it?
3. Thoughts on the Scoobies taking on Angelus -- fighting him in the cemetery and Xander's confrontation with him in the hospital?
4. What did you think of this episode's demon?
5. How did you feel about the flashbacks to Buffy's childhood?
6. Any thoughts on Cordelia/Xander?
7. Favorite lines/scenes?
8. Anything stand out on rewatch?
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bonnaleah
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Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 314

PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode? How well do you think it works in the aftermath of Passion?

I've never been real crazy about the episode and for the most part I consider it kinda blah.....Xander standing up to Angelus was the high point of the episode for me. I think Joss just loves to give us a fantastic, mindblowing episode like "Passion", leaving us breathless with anticipation to see what happens next....and then throw in a filler like "Killed by Death". I can almost see him rubbing his hands together with glee....I do think he enjoys tormenting his fan base.



What did you think of Buffy's illness and how she and the gang responded to it?

I love how they all rallied around Buffy, and how genuinely worried they seemed for her. Especially Xander, who so bravely guarded her hospital room.

Thoughts on the Scoobies taking on Angelus -- fighting him in the cemetery and Xander's confrontation with him in the hospital?

I think it's interesting that when Angelus appeared in the cemetery he ran right past Buffy to tackle Cordelia instead. Maybe he's like Spike and enjoys "the dance" ....it sure seems like he would rather fight with Buffy than kill her since he's passed up some opportunities. Willow and Xander made a good team and were pretty clever in the way they got Angelus off of Buffy.

What did you think of this episode's demon?

He was creepy looking for sure but kinda forgettable for the most part. Sideshow made a figure of him and I could never really understand why out of all the characters to pick from they choose a one episode bad. I actually collect the sideshow figures but have never had an interest in Der Kindestod. But maybe it's just me.

How did you feel about the flashbacks to Buffy's childhood?

The little actress didn't remind me of Buffy at all....she didn't even appear to be blonde. I did notice that even as a child Buffy pretended to be a superhero...so that was kinda cool.

Any thoughts on Cordelia/Xander?

I think Cordy really came through....her distracting of the security guard was perfect. I think it's pretty clear that she has fallen for Xander, and that she at least has an inkling of Xander's feelings for Buffy. I don't think Xander treats her with enough respect.

Favorite lines/scenes?

Xander: Finding out who this thing is takes priority. Cordy, you should
go with Giles.

Giles: Why do I have to have... (looks at Cordelia) Uh, good thinking.
I-I-I could do with a research assistant.

I laughed so hard at the way Giles said, "Why do I have to"......Poor Cordy....everyone wants to pawn her off onto someone else. And shame on Xander.....Cordy has brought him crispy cremes and coffee and has kept him company while he guards Buffy's room and he doesn't appreciate it one little bit.


I also liked the Giles/Joyce scene. I always wanted to ship the two of them.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode? How well do you think it works in the aftermath of Passion? 

bonnaleah wrote:
I've never been real crazy about the episode and for the most part I consider it kinda blah.....Xander standing up to Angelus was the high point of the episode for me.


Agreed. That's such a great scene. I also love when Buffy asks her mom for crunchy peanut butter at the end -- but that has nothing to do with the episode, I just like the continuity with IWRY. Smile

I do like the bits of Killed by Death that directly deal with the events of Passion: Buffy pushing herself too hard as she tries to prevent anyone else from dying; the idea that Buffy's grief and regret about Jenny's death is literally making her sick; Giles stiff-upper-lipping it through his own grief; his moment with Joyce. And Buffy getting to fight "Death," or at least a demon that kills children, is cathartic. But overall it does feel pretty flat.

What did you think of Buffy's illness and how she and the gang responded to it?

bonnaleah wrote:
I love how they all rallied around Buffy, and how genuinely worried they seemed for her. Especially Xander, who so bravely guarded her hospital room.


It was so great to see Xander, Cordelia and Willow out patrolling and wanting Buffy to stay home to get better. And their combined efforts really showed the benefits of a slayer with friends!

How did you feel about the flashbacks to Buffy's childhood?

bonnaleah wrote:
The little actress didn't remind me of Buffy at all....she didn't even appear to be blonde. I did notice that even as a child Buffy pretended to be a superhero...so that was kinda cool.


That part was cute! Little potential Buffy! And Celia's screams during the attack in her hospital bed were pretty horrifying. I wish we had heard about Celia before so that it wasn't just a one-episode contrivance. Though I think on future rewatches I'll just assume Buffy is talking about her in Some Assembly Required.

Any thoughts on Cordelia/Xander?

bonnaleah wrote:
I think Cordy really came through....her distracting of the security guard was perfect. I think it's pretty clear that she has fallen for Xander, and that she at least has an inkling of Xander's feelings for Buffy. I don't think Xander treats her with enough respect.


True. I liked Cordelia's line: "Oh, right. Your obsession with protecting Buffy. Have I told you how attractive that's not?" But then she joins the stakeout with coffee, doughnuts and Cosmo. Smile It's annoying that Xander is oblivious to the potential in their relationship.

Favorite lines/scenes?

Willow drawing on her frog fear to distract the security guards is a hoot.

Giles: Cordelia, have you actually ever heard of tact?
Cordelia: Tact is just not saying true stuff. I'll pass.

Anything stand out on rewatch? Angelus whistling "Ode to Joy" is so perfectly rotten. Not only because Buffy's in the hospital, but because perfect happiness is what got rid of that pesky soul he hated.

A few things to note from the script available online:

This stuff was cut (and is probably not really needed) but explains why the doctor was looking for swelling later.

Quote:
GILES
Was she hurt badly?

DR. WILKINSON
The injuries from the fall were minor: Sprained wrist and a couple of cracked ribs. I'm more concerned about her fever.

JOYCE
She said this morning she was feeling better.

DR. WILKINSON
She will be. But she's still suffering from exhaustion and dehydration.

WILLOW
I keep telling her that Yoo-Hoo is not a fluid replenisher.

DR. WILKINSON
Come on. I'm sure you want to see her.


This description of Little Buffy is cute (referring to the casting director):
Quote:
An EIGHT-YEAR-OLD GIRL (who looks as much like an eight-year-old Sarah as Marcia can find) comes out of a room. This is LITTLE BUFFY.


The script also referenced bats instead of frogs in the scene where Willow fakes a freakout. Someone must've remembered "Don't warn the tadpoles!" from What's My Line.

This seems like it would have been pretty corny:

Quote:
BUFFY
And the winner is...

With her last bit of strength, Buffy reaches up with both hands, grabs the Kindestod by the head, and TWISTS, cracking his neck.

BUFFY (cont'd)
Power Girl.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 6:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x19 I Only Have Eyes for You
Written by Marti Noxon
Directed by James Whitmore Jr.
Original air date: April 28, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "The tortured ghost of a former student haunts SHS, reenacting the murder/suicide he committed."

1. Overall thoughts about this episode? How did you feel about the use of the poltergeist idea and the horror-inspired elements (snakes, arm in the locker, Willow getting sucked into the floor)?
2. What did you think of Buffy and Willow's conversation at the Bronze in the beginning?
3. Thoughts on the possession scenes, especially the Buffy/Angelus one at the end?
4. How did you feel about Giles in this episode?
5. What about Willow starting to really get into witchcraft?
6. Angelus, Dru and Spike have moved to the mansion! Thoughts on the triangle and Spike's big reveal at the end?
7. What did you think of Synder in this episode and the mention of the mayor?
8. Favorite lines / scenes?
9. Anything stand out on rewatch?

If you haven't seen it, there's a sweet moment between SMG and DB when they were filming the James/Grace possession scene (second clip in the video).
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode? I think I Only Have Eyes for You is gorgeous. I love its exploration of forgiveness, and especially of the difficulty of forgiving yourself.

Giles' line -- "To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it." -- is very meaningful to me and something that I think about a lot.

It's of course not a surprise that someone who calls herself Grace Newman is a fan of this episode! I know it's weird, given the teacher/student thing. But it's the symbolic Grace Newman ("grace" = forgiveness/benediction/caritas and "new man" = rebirth/renewal) that makes this episode so significant to me and that pulled me into fandom in the first place.

I Only Have Eyes for You totally blew my mind when I watched it. I immediately went to Professor Google, because I had to see if it was just me or if other people had been so moved by it. Eventually, I found Mark Field's blog and read along with it as I watched through the rest of the series. And I started reading lots of fic and eventually found my way here. Smile

This is easily my personal favorite episode, even if I wouldn't call it the "best." I think *that* is Becoming, so it's exciting we're getting there soon! I especially love the use of Sarah McLachlan's "Full of Grace" at the end of the season, and the way it calls back to Angel(us) being full of "Grace" in IOHEFY.

How did you feel about the use of the poltergeist idea and the horror-inspired elements (snakes, arm in the locker, Willow getting sucked into the floor)? I liked the ghost story elements. The scene with Xander, Willow, Cordelia and Buffy spread around the school doing the binding spell is so different and really stands out for me. That shot of Xander sitting cross-legged on the table in the cafeteria with the candle in front of him is one of my favorite images of him. He just seems so brave and calm.



I also love the spell itself for some reason.

I shall confront and expel all evil
Out of marrow and bone, out of house and home
Never to come here again


What did you think of Buffy and Willow's conversation at the Bronze in the beginning? These two really push each other on the whole dating thing. That's a consistent theme throughout, isn't it? I often wish that they would think more about what the other needs and wants rather than the constant impulsive, "go for it"-ness, but I think it's probably one of those things where you say what you think you're supposed to say, rather than what you should say.

I really love the song playing in the Bronze in the teaser -- "Charge" by Splendid. These lyrics especially seem fitting:

What do you say
To a dream that won't go away
Cause I don't know if I can stand it


I also love when they play the Bronze again in The Freshman (the gorgeous "You and Me") and, of course, the singer, Angie Hart, wrote "Blue" with Joss for Conversations with Dead People.

Thoughts on the possession scenes, especially the Buffy/Angelus one at the end? Hoo boy. I thought it was great the way we got more bits of the scene throughout the episode until the biggie at the end. I love the way the dialogue is similar to the actual B/A breakup scene in The Prom -- "I just want you to be able to have some kind of a normal life." / "I don't give a damn about a normal life!" I especially like when James says, "Then tell me you don't love me!" and Grace says, "I don't." Because it's clearly a lie here, and I think it's a lie when Angel says "I don't" about not wanting Buffy's life to be with him in The Prom, too. I think Angel has convinced himself that he doesn't want Buffy's life to be with him -- that he wants something better for her -- but I don't think it's actually true!

I also love how neatly this part fits with Buffy's feeling that she was responsible for Angel losing his soul. ("So it was me. I did it," she said in Innocence.)

Quote:
Buffy/James: But-but I killed you.
Angelus/Grace: It was an accident. It wasn't your fault.
Buffy/James: Oh, it *is* my fault. How could I...


How did you feel about Giles in this episode? Pretty heartbroken. "He misses her. He can't think."

I loved the scene with Giles and Willow in Jenny's classroom early in the episode, and it's fitting that Willow is the one to finally get him to admit that Jenny isn't the one haunting the school.

What about Willow starting to really get into witchcraft? She's so sweet about it, making the scapulas and everything. Though the ghost thankfully wasn't Jenny, her presence is still felt through the legacy that she's left Willow.

Favorite lines / scenes? That kiss at the end. Oh, my heart. After all the pain since Innocence, we needed that so much!

Quote:
Giles: Yes, well, I appreciate your thoughts on the matter. I, in fact I... well, I *encourage* you to always challenge me when you feel it's appropriate. You should never be cowed by authority. Except, of course, in this instance, when I am clearly right and you are clearly wrong.


Quote:
Buffy: He wants forgiveness.
Giles: Yes. I imagine he does. But when James possesses people, they act out exactly what happened that night. So he's experiencing a form of purgatory instead. I mean, he's doomed to kill his Ms. Newman over and over and over again, and... forgiveness is impossible.
Buffy: Good. He doesn't deserve it.
Giles: To forgive is an act of compassion, Buffy. It's not done because people deserve it. It's done because they need it.
Buffy: No. James destroyed the one person he loved the most in a moment of blind passion. And that's not something you forgive. No matter why he did what he did. And no matter if he knows now that it was wrong and selfish and stupid, it is just something he's gonna have to live with.
Xander: He can't live with it, Buff. He's dead.


This scene was cut from the script available online:

Quote:
EXT. SCHOOL - DAY

Xander and Cordelia walk together on their way to class.

CORDELIA
Okay. So what's up with Buffy?

XANDER
How many times do we have to go over this? Nothing's up with Buffy. We're just good friends-

CORDELIA
No, I mean, what's up with Buffy? Like, is she okay?

XANDER
Sorry. I'm not used to you addressing subjects not directly related to... you.
(then)
She's fine. I guess. Why?

CORDELIA
She only blew off Ben Straley - the most eligible hunk in town. He's totally rad and his father owns a department store. I mean, he's the guy I'd be going out with if I wasn't so obviously brain damaged. No offense.

XANDER
Oh no. Why would I be offended?

CORDELIA
Anyway. Ben told Lynette who told Charity - that Buffy wouldn't even give him the time of day.

XANDER
Good for her. She's providing much needed life experience for the refection-deprived.

CORDELIA
The guilt thing's just getting a little old, you know. Everybody's told her what happened to Angel isn't her fault.

XANDER
Yeah. Everybody except the one guy she needs to hear it from.


I thought these descriptions were interesting:

Quote:
They MOVE OFF as Buffy nears the TEACHER'S DESK. Sees a beautiful young teacher, GRACE NEWMAN, who smiles kindly as she takes papers. The kids file out, except for JAMES, who lingers. He's big, handsome - not at all boyish. He hands Miss Newman his paper.


Drusilla's line in this scene was cut. Ha!

Quote:
SPIKE
Big deal. He won't do anything. Our man Angel likes to talk, but he's not much with the action. All hat - no cattle.

Angel grabs Drusilla - gives her a leering squeeze.

ANGEL
I don't know about that.

DRUSILLA
Oh, Angel's got cattle all right. Mooooooo.


The script has a woman's voice speaking to Buffy in her kitchen, like the one that spoke to Giles in the library. So in the script at least I think it was supposed to be Grace.

Also, the cuts between Buffy/Angel(us) and James/Grace doing the scene at the end are somewhat different. My guess would be is that they had both couples do the whole scene and then picked the parts that worked best. It looks like they gave slightly more to B/A(us) than originally scripted, which is good, since I never want to cut away from them to 1955 in that scene ... it's just so good.
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts about this episode?

Quote:
Overall feelings about this episode? I think I Only Have Eyes for You is gorgeous. I love its exploration of forgiveness, and especially of the difficulty of forgiving yourself.


I agree. It is truly gorgeous and I believe Marti Noxon's best work of the series. It's such a heavily B/A centered episode and it really pulls on my B/A heartstrings. I adore the parallels and think it was such a clever way to give the heartbroken B/A fans a Buffy/Angel moment.



How did you feel about the use of the poltergeist idea and the horror-inspired elements (snakes, arm in the locker, Willow getting sucked into the floor)?

I was ok with everything but the snakes. I have to actually look away during the cafeteria scene. Snakes terrify me and I don't even like to look at pictures of them. No need to store that visual image in my subconscious. Cordy getting bit was horrifying to me.

Quote:
I really love the song playing in the Bronze in the teaser -- "Charge" by Splendid. These lyrics especially seem fitting


What do you say
To a dream that won't go away
Cause I don't know
if I can stand it


I love this song so much, and yes these lyrics are so fitting. And oddly so true to life...It's weird how you can want something for so long even after you know it's an impossibility. Poor Buffy dreamed of a life and future with Angel, and even though she believes Angel is gone forever, her dream remains.



What did you think of Buffy and Willow's conversation at the Bronze in the beginning?

I think the conversation was mostly to let the viewer know how sad Buffy was. I think Willow seemed genuinely concerned, and encouraged Buffy to date because she believed it would help Buffy get over Angel [silly Willow....Buffy will never get over Angel]....Buffy has apparently mostly withdrawn from any kind of social life, and just patrols and sleeps. And also another reminder that Angel/Angelus are different people/manpires.


Buffy: Impulsive? Do you remember my ex-boyfriend, the vampire? I slept with him, he lost his soul, now my boyfriend's gone forever, and the demon that wears his face is killing my friends. The next impulsive decision I make will involve my choice of dentures.

Thoughts on the possession scenes, especially the Buffy/Angelus one at the end?


Quote:
Thoughts on the possession scenes, especially the Buffy/Angelus one at the end? Hoo boy. I thought it was great the way we got more bits of the scene throughout the episode until the biggie at the end. I love the way the dialogue is similar to the actual B/A breakup scene in The Prom -- "I just want you to be able to have some kind of a normal life." / "I don't give a damn about a normal life!" I especially like when James says, "Then tell me you don't love me!" and Grace says, "I don't." Because it's clearly a lie here, and I think it's a lie when Angel says "I don't" about not wanting Buffy's life to be with him in The Prom, too. I think Angel has convinced himself that he doesn't want Buffy's life to be with him -- that he wants something better for her -- but I don't think it's actually true!



The dialogue in the breakup scene is practically a mirror of this dialogue....but Marti Noxon wrote "The Prom" too. I agree completely that Angel didn't mean the "I don't"....he just said what he thought he had to. In "Graduation Day", when he was delirious and thought Willow was Buffy, he had changed his mind about the breakup and leaving Sunnydale....

Angel: "I thought… - I thought I'd never see you again" Willow looks at him surprised and confused.

Angel shakes his head "I can't leave you. I was wrong. I need you.

"Willow : "Oh!" she pats his hand "You mean you need Buffy!"

Angel lifts his head squinting his eyes at her. "Willow?'

Willow relieved: "Yes, - right!" She points at herself smiling "Willow!"

Angel trying to sit up: "Where is she?"


Angel ended up leaving after all, only after drinking from Buffy and almost draining her.


This is pretty similar too...James and Buffy both thinking they aren't being taken seriously because of their young age.

James: Don't. Don't do that, damn it! Don't talk to me like I'm some stupid...

Buffy: Then don't. Who are you to tell me what's right for me? You think I haven't thought about this?
Angel: Have you, rationally?
Buffy: No. No, of course not. I'm just some swoony little schoolgirl, right?


I simply adore the scene between Buffy/Angelus--Grace/James at the end. Buffy/James are forgiven and told they were loved with Grace/Angel's last breath...And then that kiss that continued for a moment after James departed...That was Angelus gently breaking away and gazing at Buffy if only for a moment before shoving her away. I think being infected by Grace wasn't the only reason Angelus felt so violated by love.



How did you feel about Giles in this episode?

Aww, poor Giles. He misses Jenny so much that he was trying to contact her. I get so caught up in Buffy's pain of losing Angel that I forget Giles is struggling with grief too.

What about Willow starting to really get into witchcraft?

Well at the time I wasn't very interested but I'm sure glad now that she did.

Angelus, Dru and Spike have moved to the mansion! Thoughts on the triangle and Spike's big reveal at the end?

I love the mansion....love the way Angelus torments Spike...love crazy Dru...and loved Spike getting up out of his wheelchair. Pretty sure back when I first watched I had already begun to hate Angelus, and was excited to see what Spike had up his sleeve. I pretty much love every scene with Angelus/Spike/Dru.


What did you think of Synder in this episode and the mention of the mayor?

Well it's a lot more meaningful on re-watch, knowing what we know of the Mayor....but in this ep it just confirms that he knows about the hellmouth, and therefore probably knows who Buffy is too. He's always seemed untrustworthy so I'm not surprised about him.

Favorite lines

A person doesn't just wake up one day and stop loving somebody. Love is forever.

I love this line cause I think the love Buffy and Angel have for each other is the forever kind of love.

Anything stand out on rewatch?


Buffy: No. James destroyed the one person he loved the most in a moment of blind passion. And that's not something you forgive. No matter why he did what he did. And no matter if he knows now that it was wrong and selfish and stupid, it is just something he's gonna have to live with.

Cordelia: Okay. Overidentify much? (munches her cracker)


I had never really noticed the line "the one person he loved the most'. Buffy is clearly identifying with James...as is confirmed by Cordelia...so this is saying Angel was one the person Buffy loved most. I always knew she loved him, but by saying "the one person", she seems to be putting her love for him above all other people. Of course Dawn hasn't arrived yet but I've often seen fans claim that Buffy loved Dawn more than anyone...or Joyce...I don't know the line just kind of jumped out at me this time...perhaps she was just meaning romantic love....because Joyce?


Quote:
If you haven't seen it, there's a sweet moment between SMG and DB when they were filming the James/Grace possession scene (second clip in the video).


Aw, that's so cool. How do you find all this cool stuff.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 9:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonnaleah wrote:
Aw, that's so cool. How do you find all this cool stuff.


That was something I came across on an old Buffy-Boards thread. Very Happy

2x20 Go Fish
Written by David Fury and Elin Hampton
Directed by David Semel
Original air date: May 5, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "When it appears that something is targeting the swim team, Xander goes undercover to find the truth."

1. Overall feelings about this episode? Does it deserve its reputation for being one of the "worst"?
2. How did you feel about the handling of the high school sports cliches, with the win-at-any-cost coach, the steroids theme and the sexual harassment/assault elements?
3. What did you think of Xander joining the swim team and the Xander/Cordelia stuff?
4. How about about Angelus' appearance?
5. Any thoughts on Buffy and the other Scoobies?
6. Favorite lines/scenes?
7. Anything stand out on rewatch?
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall feelings about this episode? Does it deserve its reputation for being one of the "worst"?  Unfortunately, I have to say yes. It's not even so-bad-it's-good, like I Robot, You Jane.

But no episode is without its redeeming qualities. I really love the moment when Cordelia thinks Xander is a fish monster. That girl has gone from only making out with Xander in closets to being willing to date him even as a hideous creature from the deep. That's love.

The scene where Willow interrogates Jonathan is brilliant. I love Giles telling the non-piscene swim team members, "Stay calm, chaps." Buffy attempting to use her hair chopstick as a weapon is cute. And, hey, Xander does not look bad at all in a Speedo.

How did you feel about the handling of the high school sports cliches, with the win-at-any-cost coach, the steroids theme and the sexual harassment/assault elements? I feel like whatever point they were trying to make -- other than jock worship is bad and, hey, steroids are also not-so-good -- was lost on me.

And this episode even made Xander, Willow and Giles take a pretty nonchalant attitude toward what Cam did to Buffy in his car and the awful way that Synder and the coach treated her. Weird.

How about about Angelus' appearance? I'm never going to complain about him showing up, and I did like that it actually intersected with the main plot. But I guess that's faint praise. Smile

Any thoughts on Buffy and the other Scoobies?  I am obviously far from the first to point this out, but is Willow really so brilliant that she can spend spring semester of her junior year teaching without having to worry at all about her actual classes for her college applications? I guess the answer is yes, since she gets in everywhere.

Favorite lines/scenes? 

"I think I've lost all will to cheerlead."

"I snuck in yesterday and... peed in the pool."

Cordelia: You, you, you. What about me? It's one thing to be dating the lame unpopular guy, but it's another to be dating the creature from the Blue Lagoon.
Xander: Black Lagoon. The creature from the Blue Lagoon was Brooke Shields.

Anything stand out on rewatch? Buffy brooding in the beginning of the episode and then trying to keep tabs on Gage to protect him reminded me of Angel. Smile

Another disappointment from this episode is that there weren't even any interesting cut scenes or lines in the script available online. The only differences were a few unnecessary Xander lines.
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For all of my good intentions something always comes up that prevents me getting this up on Tues. Again sorry to be late.


Overall feelings about this episode? Does it deserve its reputation for being one of the "worst"?

Quote:
Unfortunately, I have to say yes.


Yeah, I agree. Going into the re-watch all I remembered were those cheesy fish monsters...so then I was pleasantly surprised by the episode's redeeming qualities and I loved the same scenes that you did.

Quote:
I really love the moment when Cordelia thinks Xander is a fish monster. That girl has gone from only making out with Xander in closets to being willing to date him even as a hideous creature from the deep. That's love.


Yeah I never expected that from Cordelia. It's been obvious that she had real feelings for Xander but as you said....this is real, true, love. Her character has come a long way and I am really starting to enjoy her being part of the team.

Quote:
The scene where Willow interrogates Jonathan is brilliant.


I loved that big light Willow had shining in Jonathan's face....and Jonathan looked so cute....he's really got some long eyelashes. I laughed so hard when he said he got his revenge by peeing in the pool.....and then later seeing Xander dive in. Funny stuff. Also loved how Jonathan just meekly answered all of Willow's questions without questioning her authority. Does he feel compelled to answer her because she is now a substitute teacher and person of authority or is he unconsciously sensing a latent power in her?



How did you feel about the handling of the high school sports cliches, with the win-at-any-cost coach, the steroids theme and the sexual harassment/assault elements?

Well sadly though the episode took it over the top, we know this mentality exists in the real world.



How about about Angelus' appearance?

Quote:
I'm never going to complain about him showing up, and I did like that it actually intersected with the main plot. But I guess that's faint praise. Smile


I know right? We love us some Angelus, and he makes every scene better. I loved when he said, "Why, Miss Summers! You're beautiful!" It's weird how Angelus is like Spike says, "all talk and no cattle". He tells Gage his thing with Buffy was the worst mistake of his life...but why exactly is that? You'd think from Angelus point of view that Buffy would be the best thing that ever happened to him since he is now free from Angel's grip. Angelus tells Gage that Buffy is a real head tripper and that what she needs is for someone to really knock her down off her notches....and yet in spite of all the opportunities he's personally had, he can't seem to bring himself to do it.

Any thoughts on Buffy and the other Scoobies?

Again I am amazed by Xander. This kid has so much heart and bravery. I had forgotten that he had once again saved Buffy.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

2x21 & 2x22 Becoming
Written and directed by Joss Whedon
Original air date: May 12 & 19, 1998



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "Angel prepares a ritual to awaken a demon that will suck the world into hell; Buffy prepares to kill him, but is torn when Willow discovers the ritual that could restore Angel's soul." (Part 1) "Buffy's life is a mess when her mother discovers her secret life, and she's expelled from school and forced to make a heart-wrenching decision when both Angel's and Willow's rituals succeed." (Part 2)

Another epic two-parter means very open-ended questions so you can talk about whatever moves you.

1. Overall thoughts on Becoming?
2. Favorite lines/scenes?
3. Anything stand out on rewatch?
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on Becoming?  Total brilliance. This is the best the show ever is, in my opinion. There are other moments that come close, but these two episodes just blow me away. They have heart-wrenching drama, solid comedy and great twists. I feel at no other point in the series do all the strands come together in a way that feels inevitable once you get there -- like there could be no other possible ending that would feel as right -- but that you wouldn't see coming at the start. Season 2 earns this ending so hard, and I love it.

It also kills me, of course.

Angelus: Now that's everything, huh? No weapons... No friends... No hope. Take all that away... and what's left?
Buffy: Me.

This is such a powerful message and a powerful lesson for Buffy to learn, even though it totally sucks. Sucks sucks sucks. Kicked out of her house, expelled from school, and then she thinks even Willow is rooting for Angel to die... and she still saves the world, giving up the only man she's ever loved.

This is why Buffy is my hero. But I would not want to trade places with her!

It's really too amazing for me to say much else. So I'll just do some lists.

Things I love: Whistler's narration; the flashbacks (and I don't love all the BtVs/AtS flashbacks, but these I do!); Darla's dress and the blood horizon she scratches into her chest; Angelus' devilish good looks; Oz, at all times; Drusilla's pre-vamp gorgeousness; Kendra's return; Giles using the Orb of Thesulah as a paperweight; the immolation-o-gram; SPIKE OMG; the way Jenny's eyes glitter in the half-light; Dru making out with Giles; many more things.

The less-good stuff: Kendra's death feels a little unworthy of her, in a way; XANDER UGH (although he's also great in some scenes, so it's mixed!)

Favorite lines/scenes?

The fish stick re-enactment!

Cordelia: Gee, Xander, what are you gonna teach when you fail in life? Advanced loser-being?

Whistler: Bottom line is, even if you see 'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments. No one asks for their life to change, not really. But it does. So what are we, helpless? Puppets? No. The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.

Spike: I told you. I want to stop Angel. (snickers) I want to save the world.

Both uses of "Close your eyes."

The whole Full of Grace montage. Sob.

Anything stand out on rewatch? Willow and Buffy are studying covalent bonds during the scene in Jenny's classroom when they find the disk. Since whatever the Scoobies are studying tends to be related to the theme of the episode, I see it as a reference to Buffy and Angel's bonded lives.

I like that Cordelia's first impulse is to be on board with cursing Angel again, though she does stick up for Xander after that.

Angelus wiping Giles' glasses during the torture scene gets me. I teared up.

Why didn't Spike have a stake to dust Angelus when he had the element of surprise? Doesn't seem like it would have been that hard to hide one. (I mean, I know why, because that would have been too easy, but still!)

There were few things from the script online that were left out of Part 1:

A little more at the end of the fish stick scene:
Quote:
XANDER
Now 'lunch' I could actually teach.

OZ
I can see that.
(as teacher)
"Baloney. It's not a toy. Let's put it on the bread - The rye bread! Careful!" Lunch teacher.


An extended version of Angelus' line in the confessional flashback:
Quote:
ANGEL
Fulfill his plan for you, child. Be evil. Perform evil works. Attack the less fortunate. You can start small: laugh at a cripple. You'll feel better. Just give in.


After Xander accuses Buffy of forgetting about Jenny's death so she can get her boyfriend back:

Quote:
Buffy doesn't reply. She just turns and leaves the room, too distraught to deal (but not crying). Willow glares at Xander, who returns her gaze firmly.

CORDELIA
Wow. Even I know that was insensitive.

XANDER
(staring Willow down)
Am I wrong?

Willow doesn't answer.


A whole scene with Buffy and Joyce:
Quote:
INT. UPSTAIRS HALL - MINUTES LATER (NIGHT)

Buffy is on her way downstairs when Joyce stops her.

JOYCE
Where are you going?

BUFFY
Oh. Uh, to Willow's. To Study. Got two finals tomorrow.

JOYCE
All right. Make sure you two study. Don't talk about boys all night.

BUFFY
Oh, we don't like boys. I mean, while we're studying. We like boys. Some boys...

As she's talking, she shifts and two crosses fall out of her bag. Joyce bends down to get them, looks at them.

BUFFY
You know, it's funny. I've just been kind of... religious. Lately.

JOYCE
Oh. Well, you know your father and I are both agnostic, we always thought you should decide for yourself.

BUFFY
Well, I'm learning... sort of searching.

JOYCE
Well, that's good.

Joyce hands her the crosses. Not sure what to say.

BUFFY
Okay.

She starts to go.

JOYCE
Get a ride back if you come home late.


More Kendra dialogue in the library scene about Acathla:
Quote:
BUFFY
So that would be the literal kind of sucking into Hell. Neat.

KENDRA
(to Buffy)
You think Angelus and the others are responsible for the theft of the tomb?

BUFFY
I'd bet folding money on it.

KENDRA
I can't believe you dated him.
(off her look)
I mean, he's got to be stopped.

WILLOW
We don't know where they are. They moved after Giles torched their house.

KENDRA
(to Giles)
You did? Good for you.

GILES
It was nothing, really.


A Spike/Dru exchange:

Quote:
DRUSILLA
Spike, sweetie, the fun's about to begin.

SPIKE
It is? Seems more to me like the fun's about to end.

DRUSILLA
Don't be all gloomy.

SPIKE
Darling, if this works, everything changes. Think about it. In this world, we can be kings. In the next...

DRUSILLA
My Spikey's getting cold feet. Don't you worry about the next world. You'll always have me...

SPIKE
Will I?

She doesn't answer. A SCREAM emerges from the main room -- that of a young man.

DRUSILLA
Oh! The blood ritual! To cleanse Angel. Let's go and see.

SPIKE
(giving in)
Well, if there's blood...


Some bits from the Whistler flashback:

Quote:
WHISTLER is young in appearance, and wearing a bad suit over a loud shirt. He looks like a bottom-ranked mafioso. His manner, like his outfit, is loud and grating.

He starts to help Angel up. Angel is clearly weak. As he gets to his feet a respectable PASSERBY stares at the pair.

WHISTLER
(to the passerby)
What? Yes, he's my lover, you mustn't judge us!

The passerby scurries off.

WHISTLER
God, I hate people.


Quote:
WHISTLER
(to the vendor)
Dog me.
(to Angel)
There are three kinds of people that no one understands. Geniuses, madmen, and guys that mumble. My name is Whistler. Anyway,  lately it is. My real name is hard to pronounce unless you're a dolphin.


Quote:
WHISTLER
A demon, technically. But I'm not a bad guy -- not all demons are dedicated to the destruction of all life. Someone has to maintain balance, you know. Good and evil can't exist without each other, blah blah blah. I'm not like a good fairy or anything, I'm just trying to make it all balance -- do I come off defensive?


Quote:
ANGEL
You don't know what I have to deal with. What I've done.

WHISTLER
You're annoying me! The self pity thing is not gonna bring in the chicks. It's a bore.


A little bit extra before Buffy leaves to meet Angelus for the diversion:
Quote:
BUFFY
I can't risk him killing more people.

XANDER
What if he shows up with an army?

BUFFY
I'll run away.

KENDRA
A Slayer never runs aw -- 
(off their looks)
Good plan.

BUFFY
I'd better go.


And from Part 2.

Giles gets to do some damage in the pre-torture scene:

Quote:
Giles looks right at Angel, shitscared. Then he suddenly SLAMS his elbow into one of the vamps faces, knocking him back. The other vamp comes at him and Giles hurls him into Angel, takes off for the door.

He makes it as far as the door and Drusilla steps in through it, grabbing Giles by the throat. Easily walking him back as he chokes.

She hands him back to the two vamps. Angel comes up to him, smiling as ever.

ANGEL
Okay. Where do we start? Ooh. Fingers.


Some kinda icky stuff from Whistler's first conversation with Buffy:

Quote:
WHISTLER
'Cause I need a date for the prom. My mother says I may attend, but no fondling.


Quote:
WHISTLER
...But you two made with the smootchies and now he's a creep again.

She hates to hear that. It takes her down a peg.

BUFFY
We didn't know. . .

WHISTLER
Hey, not here to judge. Body like yours - I'd pretty much give up my soul for a shot at that, too. But it took Angel off the roster. Which puts you on the spots in a big way. What are you gonna do? What are you prepared to do?


And a funny moment between Willow and Cordelia:
Quote:
WILLOW
There's no use arguing with me. Do you see my resolve face? You've seen it before and you know what it means.
(to Cordy)
Just help me cast the spell and you can give me a complete makeover.

CORDELIA
You're not just saying that?

WILLOW
We can help Buffy -- if we turn Angel back soon enough, we can stop him from ever awakening Acathla.
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bonnaleah
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The love the begining and ending monologue of pt 1.....

There's moments in your life that make you, that set the course of who you're gonna be. Sometimes they're little, subtle moments. Sometimes... they're not. I'll show you what I mean.

Bottom line is, even if you see 'em coming, you're not ready for the big moments. No one asks for their life to change, not really. But it does. So what are we, helpless? Puppets? No. The big moments are gonna come. You can't help that. It's what you do afterwards that counts. That's when you find out who you are.


I loved that we got to see who Angel had been as a human being, and how Liam's decision to follow Darla into that alley had been the defining moment in his short life. Poor Liam wanted to see the world, and he paid a horrific price for it. There's no way he knew what he was signing up for, or that his short life was over for the next 145 yrs. little could he know that when he next opened his eyes, his head would be filled with horrific memories and soul crushing guilt.

Liam's fateful decision allowed Angelus to come into being for the next 145 yrs....Angelus probably never gave a second thought to killing the Kalderash Gypsy girl.... after terrorizing and killing all over Europe it was just more of the same for him....except this time it wasn't...this time it was one of those defining moments talked about in the monologue. Angelus' reign of terror was about to be halted by the gypsy curse. Liam's soul being returned to the body resulted in Angelus being caged and helpless.....tortured in fact by experiencing Angel's thoughts and feelings. The Liam/Angel/Angelus storyline is fascinating to me so I loved getting all the flashbacks and discovering more of Angel's history.

Angelus watching Buffy fight other vampires from the shadows was reminiscent of Spike doing the same...but I don't believe their motives were the same. Spike was watching to see her fighting style...much like boxers will watch opponents previous bouts in order to anticipate moves and plan for the fight accordingly. Angelus just seems to enjoy watching her...whether she's dancing, fighting, or sleeping....but he can't seem to bring himself to kill her.

Buffy however has reached the point of wanting it all to end, and she believes that she's never gonna get the Angel she knew and loved back, so letting Angelus live is pointless and she's accepted that she has to kill him. Ah, but then she and Willow find Jenny's disk....and that look on Buffy's face when she realizes that it's the restoration spell. Not just her face...my face! This right here was Hope that things would be put right by the end of the season. I was actually counting on this right up until Acathala opened his big mouth.

My love/hate relationship with Xander is in full swing. I love him dearly and then he acts like an ass about Angel and I can't stand him again. Xander just wants Angel dead which he will confirm later with the "kick his ass" instead of giving Buffy Willow's truthful message.

Loved the Drusilla/Angelus flashbacks. I guess Angelus was full from draining the priest or Drusilla would have been a gonner. Poor sweet Dru has already been made to feel that she's cursed, and by her own mother no less, so being told she's an evil thing by a priest was probably step 1 of her insanity. Angelus seemed to enjoy the entire thing terribly and it was just another example of how wicked he really was. Interesting though that Angeus knew enough about the Catholic religion to advise "Ten our Fathers and an act of Contrition".


Poor Angel had to be absolutely tortured by guilt to be driven to eating rats in alley's in order to survive. Still we know from ATS that Angel hasn't spent the entire 98 yrs in alley's eating rats. I guess maybe drinking from the dead guy in the diner drove him to the alley. I'm glad they showed us something at least for how he ended up in Sunnydale wanting to help Buffy. The Angel/Whistler flashbacks in "Becoming" are the pefrect argument for those who want to call Angel "stalker guy" and put him on the same level as Spike. It was Whistler who took Angel to see Buffy being called and fighting her first vampire...it was Whistler that put it in Angel's mind that he could make something of himself and help. Angel kept an eye on Buffy so he could help her.

It was also really great for us to see Buffy called, and see how scared she was by the whole thing....and how from day one it was a burden and caused problems with her parents.

I loved Spike mocking Angelus when he couldn't get the sword out of Acathala. "
Spike: (sing-song) Someone wasn't worthy.

Aw, too bad Kendra came back only to die. I think I hate it more now than I did at the time...probably because of the whole nostalgia thing. Drusilla with her hypnotic stare thing kinda seems like cheating to me but then I don't suppose vampires have any honor. Spike was of course thrilled that Dru had killed a slayer. I hated that Giles was taken and tortured, but it was cool getting another Giles/Jenny scene even if it wasn't real.

So happy when Buffy broke away from the cops and went to the hospital. Xander is kind of a mess about Willow, and I loved how he talked to her as she lay unconscious. She's his best friend and he loves her.

And poor Joyce when the cops come to her house looking for Buffy. Joyce gets a lot of heat from fans but I can also see things from her point of view. Joyce is mostly in the dark about what is really going on. All she knows is that Buffy got kicked out of school and that she gets in fights and that she tries to sneak out at night, ect. But Joyce doesn't know the truth about any of this so I think her reactions are pretty realistic. Bless her heart, she's been driving around looking for Buffy when Buffy and Spike walk up and I can't really blame her for not wanting to believe Buffy's story. When the vampires come and she watches Buffy and Spike kill them it would have been a lot to digest all at once. Buffy should remember how she felt when she first found out about vampires than to expect that Joyce would just accept it all without any questions. I know Buffy was fighting the clock here but I thought telling Joyce to have another drink was absolutely terrible.

Spike and Joyce were always so cute together....

Joyce: Have we met?

Spike: (faces her) Um... you hit me with an ax one time. Remember? (makes an ax-holding gesture) Uh, 'get the hell away from my daughter.' (lowers his arms)

Joyce: Oh.

She lets out a little chuckle. Spike sighs with boredom.

Joyce: So, do you, uh, live here in town?



Spike's motivation in helping Buffy can imo be boiled down to these 2 lines.....

Spike: I'm talking about your ex, pet. I'm talking about putting him in the bloody ground.


Spike: I told you. I want to stop Angel. (snickers) I want to save the world.


Spuffy's will say Spike helped Buffy because he wanted to save the world, but I think his snicker right before saying it kinda says it all. Angelus had tormented him for months and had moved in on a willing Drusilla....so all he really wanted was a dead Angelus, and for things to be the way they used to be with him and Dru. It's all very clear in the script. He helped because it would benefit him and for no other reason. Spike hit Angelus so hard repeatedly with an andiron and was only stopped by Dru jumping him and knocking him out of the way. I think Spike had fantasized about doing that for a long time. And then when it looked as if Angelus was going to kill Buffy, Spike just shrugged an "oh well", carried Dru to his car and sped away.


Love the sword fight between Buffy and Angelus, and love the no friends, no hope, no weapons---Me dialogue.

So excited that Willow's spell worked and Angel had returned because I was still hoping for a miracle. After events this season I really needed to see the kisses and hear the "I love you's"....but then the look of horror in Buffy's eyes as she saw Acathala's mouth start to open and knew what she was gonna have to do. My heart broke right along with hers. I couldn't help noticing that Buffy asked Angel to close his eyes right before she stuck the sword him, the same way Darla asked Liam to close his eyes before sinking her fangs in his neck. Neither time did he know what was coming.

My heart broke for Joyce when she found the note and realized Buffy was gone. I always felt that her words were said in anger that she really didn't mean it....and Buffy leaving Sunnydale on that bus while "full of grace" played was beyond sad and a real tearjerker...not even counting the sadness of Angel being sucked into hell and wondering how he could possibly come back from that.

An absolutely fantastic episode.




I liked this line a lot. I love how Buffy used to mix up her words.

Buffy: And you're sure this was the tomb of Alfalfa?
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