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Cangel
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know I'm a few years late to the conversation but here we go. I was never really bothered by Spike in the TV show. I don't think Spuffy held a candle to what Bangel had nor did it try to. Cangel on the other hand tried to replicate Bangel and as others have noticed failed miserably in doing so.

The argument I hear alot is Cordy was Angel's best friend knew him best, why not have them be together, it will be mature and grown up, etc. (Insert eye roll because once again Bangel is diminished as a high school romance). But I will take it a step further and say, I don't buy Cordelia being Angel's best friend and confidant. I think that was a forced sell as well. I do buy that Angel and Cordy form a bond, one like an annoying older broody brother and the young nagging sister who you grow affection for despite her annoying attributes. They are stuck together due to the common mission but Cordy never really tries in the early days to understand Angel as much as she tries to change him. I'm currently on Season 2 rewatch and I've hit The Trial so we are about about a year away from the thick of Cangel and Cordy has no deeper understanding as to why Angel is so obsessed with saving Darla's soul nor does she try to understand him. They are about to part ways for a while, during Beige!Angel so its not like their friendship and deep understanding of one another is going to grow this Season. No, this is all about Darla, Angel and his depression. Little to do with Cordy. So by the time we hit Season 3 and Cordy is branded as the one who understands him best, sorry but I didn't see that organically happen. You have once again told rather than shown me this and I don't buy it. So, I would make the rather controversial argument that Cordy was not this spectacular friend who knew Angel better than anyone else. Rather, she was a good friend who encouraged him to live life, add some color to his wardrobe, and reminded him that he was a eunich.

devotedbangel wrote:
What really cracks me up though is how Cangel shippers twist things to support their ship. They say how much Angel loved Cordy and vice versa. All I saw was other people having to tell them that they were in love. What about at the end of "Spin the Bottle" when Angel asks Cordy, "Were we in love?" Even Angel isn't sure!!!! They never said "I love you" to each other. Not once.


The degree of fanon required to support the Cangel ship is significant. You have to overlook Angel's feelings for Buffy, you have to overlook the fact that Angel and Cordelia never actually even had one date, not one single romantic kiss outside of the influence of magic or alternative universes or dreams.

I understand that many Cangel shippers like to do the whole "but Joss and look at what he did to CC." But where do they possibly think this relationship would have gone? Would Cordy be content with knowing she and Angel could be together because she was not his perfect happiness? Would they have figured out his curse? If they figured out his curse don't you think that the Buffy question would come up? After all thats one of the reasons he left her? There was no place for this to go. Even Joss said in an interview once, we ran out of ideas for Cordelia that is why we wrote her out. And to be honest, despite the pregnancy - how would Cordy have worked in Season 5? I can't really see it.

And then there is the biggest problem for the Cangel shipper. He never says "I love you" to Cordy. And he has so many opportunities to do it. So many chances:

_tragicsymphony wrote:
"Awakening" drops a major anvil with the C/A dream sex sequence. If this is his perfect fantasy, then how come he never tells her he loves her? It only gets worse. When he realizes he has to kill her, he still can't say it. All he can say is, "I'm so sorry."


As mentioned above, Awakening, when he is going to kill her, but even before that, when Skip reveals that Jasmine has been influencing everything (I have a personal head canon about this and how it relates to Cangel), Angel says "The woman I...." and he stops himself. Why time and time again is he holding himself back from saying he loves her? This is a deliberate action by the writers. This is not accidental. I think at the end of the day there is something sacred about the fact that up until that point neither Angel nor Buffy has said I love you to anyone else but each other (with the exception non-romantic pairings). And yes - Buffy says it to Spike in Chosen but Spike doesn't believe her and neither do I.

He has a chance to tell her in YW once again. I loved you, or I was going to tell you I love you. Or I still love you. Instead he says "I'm lost without you." Well yeah, she was his seer, his access to the Powers. How is he supposed to know if he is on the right track without her?

And side note: You know what line KILLS me in You're Welcome??

Quote:
Cordy: Angel, there are no people like us.


If you are talking Champions - well I hate to break it to you but there are = Buffy for starters. Doyle sacrificed himself that was pretty heroic, you just watched his video. Spike went and saved the world recently and thinks he is going to shanshu. Many of AI and the Scoobies put their lives on the line for the big battles. I don't understand what she means here and I really dislike it. If there are two unique individuals out there, that are unlike anyone else it is Buffy and Angel. They carry the burdens of their teams, of the the world.

And finally, this notion that you can compare Buffy and Cordelia's heroism to me is the biggest insult of all. Buffy was called at 15, has laid her life on the line time and time again for this world. She has died TWICE. She has stopped 5? apocalypses. I appreciate the growth that Cordelia has shown and the courage she has to maintain her visions but once she becomes part demon her visions don't even bother her anymore. Doyle understood that he was not a warrior, he knew he was a messenger and even he gave his life up for the cause. Cordelia was a vital asset to the team, but she does not compare to Buffy.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
I'm currently on Season 2 rewatch and I've hit The Trial so we are about about a year away from the thick of Cangel and Cordy has no deeper understanding as to why Angel is so obsessed with saving Darla's soul nor does she try to understand him. They are about to part ways for a while, during Beige!Angel so its not like their friendship and deep understanding of one another is going to grow this Season.


It's kind of shocking on rewatch to see how fast the AI "family" falls apart. In To Shanshu in LA and Judgment, they seem super tight, but by Untouched, Angel says he has no family in LA and there's this exchange:

Angel: "This is Wesley and Cordelia."
Bethany: "So, it's a family business, huh?"
Angel: "Friends. Come on in."

I think they could have built Cangel out of the ashes of Season 2 if Cordy had not forgiven Angel with the clothes thing. If they had seriously worked to rebuild a friendship and had that grow into something more. (But of course I'm selfishly glad they didn't do that.) Instead it was just, like, Cordelia has always been Angel's most bestest friend, duh.

My head canon is that after Forever, Angel was so devastated that he couldn't protect and take care of Buffy that he channeled all that energy into Cordelia. Harmony showing up in the very next episode would have kept all the Sunnydale stuff fresh in his mind. At that point, Cordelia may even have reminded him of Buffy during that first painful year in LA when she was losing all her Hemery friends and dealing with her calling.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Grace Newman"]
dcai0830 wrote:
I think they could have built Cangel out of the ashes of Season 2 if Cordy had not forgiven Angel with the clothes thing. If they had seriously worked to rebuild a friendship and had that grow into something more.


Yes. At least they would have made a believer out of me re the "Cordy is Angel's best friend and right hand." Instead that line is told to me but never shown to me. Even Xander and Buffy have a more significant build up towards a deep friendship and I don't even like Xander all that much!

I do see Cordy as very loyal to Angel starting in early Season 2. But she obviously still thinks of him as her boss/big brother. She calls him "boss" a few times in Season 2. In Season 1 Angel is broodilicious due to Buffy. In Season 2, he is broodilicious due to Darla. He doesn't really glance over at Cordy until end of Season 2 and by then its like - "Hey look at this magical friendship everyone."

But I mean where did that come from?

I really like the head canon that Forever affected Angel and Cordy may have become a mirror to Buffy from this point on. But I also think that Angel is just generally a protective guy. I mean even with Kate - I don't believe he has any romantic feelings for her by the time Epiphany rolls around but he looks extremely panicked when he arrives to her attempted suicide. He cares deeply for people. I don't always read that as romantic. I also see a tight bond between Angel and Faith with no romantic involvement but he cares for her very much and that is evident in S9.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
But I also think that Angel is just generally a protective guy. I mean even with Kate - I don't believe he has any romantic feelings for her by the time Epiphany rolls around but he looks extremely panicked when he arrives to her attempted suicide. He cares deeply for people. I don't always read that as romantic. I also see a tight bond between Angel and Faith with no romantic involvement but he cares for her very much and that is evident in S9.


I'm not going to disagree with you there! I'm not saying that Angel can't be protective of Cordelia without romantic feelings for her. I'm just saying that post-Epiphany, he displays a level of devotion to Cordelia that goes beyond what I think their pre-Beige friendship would naturally have produced. Part of it is his epiphany, of course, and realizing again that he needs his friends, and part of it is that the visions hurt her, but the Forever head canon is how I get to the "magical friendship," as you put it, that appears in late Season 2.

And, given that Cordelia is Cordelia, if Angel treats her like the most important person in his life, she's definitely going to think she deserves the title. Smile

So that's how I explain the Cangel vibes up till Birthday, when Jasmine starts to take over and turns Cordelia into a literal Buffy-lite.

I can't blame Angel for wanting an outlet, platonic or not, for all the gushy love in his heart. He's a giver. I think he feels best when he's able to show love through actions, right?
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 4:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="Grace Newman"]
dcai0830 wrote:
I can't blame Angel for wanting an outlet, platonic or not, for all the gushy love in his heart. He's a giver. I think he feels best when he's able to show love through actions, right?


Very true especially since he isn’t big with the words. Smile
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Bangelfan4life
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 3:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

They should have just stayed friends and that was their strong suit. It wasn't natural for Cangel to form and when other characters are telling Angel and Cordelia that they have feelings for each other you know something is wrong. I have always felt like they had Cordelia become Angel's love interest because it was easier than coming up with a new female character to fill that role. The same could have been done for Cordelia.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Welcome bangelfan4life!! I agree with you that they just set a Cangel up because it was easier than introducing s new female character. I think the laziness got them in trouble though because it ended up feeling forced and unnatural!
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi, bangelfan4life!

bangelfan4life wrote:
I have always felt like they had Cordelia become Angel's love interest because it was easier than coming up with a new female character to fill that role.


dcai0830 wrote:
I agree with you that they just set a Cangel up because it was easier than introducing s new female character. I think the laziness got them in trouble though because it ended up feeling forced and unnatural!


My impression was that the writers didn't want to have an Angel romance at all, but the network insisted, so they did the worst possible job they could with it out of spite. Smile
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Bangelfan4life
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:
Hi, bangelfan4life!

bangelfan4life wrote:
I have always felt like they had Cordelia become Angel's love interest because it was easier than coming up with a new female character to fill that role.


dcai0830 wrote:
I agree with you that they just set a Cangel up because it was easier than introducing s new female character. I think the laziness got them in trouble though because it ended up feeling forced and unnatural!


My impression was that the writers didn't want to have an Angel romance at all, but the network insisted, so they did the worst possible job they could with it out of spite. Smile


I had read talk that about that.
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is going by memory but if I remember David Greenwalt was the one who really wanted to do Angel/Cordy.Than when Buffy moved to UPN and Angel stayed on The WB,The WB who were pissed at Buffy moving(UPN offered more money than The WB were offering to keep it)than out of spite wanted to have a forced separation between ATS and BTVS.They wanted the show to cut as much ties with BTVS as possible to the point,that ATS was given limits to how much they could even say Buffy's name.They allowed the show to say her name at the beginning of the season just to deal with the aftermath of Buffy's death and resurrection.That's why they did the offscreen meeting because The WB refused to let the shows do anymore crossovers(UPN was willing to do crossovers).The only reason The WB allowed crossovers in BTVS season 7/ATS season 4 was because Buffy was ending and ATS would be getting some BTVS characters moving to ATS for a season 5(which ended up being Spike).

So the The WB forcing a split between the two shows due to Buffy's move to UPN combined with David Greenwalt always wanting to do a Angel/Cordy pairing is why A/C went forward in season 3.

If Buffy had stayed on The WB or Angel had moved to UPN with Buffy,I don't think they would of done a Angel/Cordy pairing.The network split and situation gave Greenwalt the opening to push A/C.

I even remember a interview(I wish I could find it) after season 3 of Angel concluded where Joss admitted trying to pair Angel/Cordy was a mistake.David Greenwalt left the show after season 3.I also remember rumors that Greenwalt left( was"fired") due to how poorly received A/C was in ATS season 3.

Season 4 of Angel seemed like a long about way of trying to undo Angel/Cordy really.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Season 4 of Angel seemed like a long about way of trying to undo Angel/Cordy really.


It really was wasn’t it?

“Were we in love?”
...
“All I know is you were my dear friend”

And also the Skip retconning the relationship. Saying that Jasmine’s influence had started long ago.
...
His saying Buffy’s name post sex.
...
And of course the finale where he goes to Sunnydale.

There was a lot of back pedaling going on.
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elle2
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 4:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

first of all guys, Happy New Year to everyone!

Now onto the topic.

Let me just share my POV as someone who had regularly seen all the five seasons of Angel The Series before witnessing the epicness of Bangel's love story. I love Cangel, and I'm talking about the development of their friendship. I still think that Cordelia had the best development growth for a supporting role in both Btvs & Ats combined, even with the character assassination on Ats S4.

At the beginning of Ats, I thought Cordelia was Angel's "would be" love interest. I saw chemistry between them. But after I saw IWRY, I was confused. Because of IWRY, I began watching BtVS, which was on its S4. I watched it concurrently with Angel S1, in hope that Angel would cross over with Buffy and make a "long distance" relationship with her. But then I saw Buffy with Riley and it kinda broke my heart for Angel that she moved on without remembering what she had with Angel on IWRY. The events happened in Sanctuary didnt help either for me to hope for Bangel reunion.

In short, it seems that both shows were telling the audience "to forget" Bangel. Spuke being "in-love" with Buffy on S5 and their abusive sexual relationship on S6, kinda sealed the deal for me that perhaps Bangel was not the "meant to be" couple. If the showrunners wanted to go on that direction, then as a viewer, I had no choice but to "accept" what story they wanted me "to be told". During that time, my fascination with Ats was heavily character driven more than "ship" driven. Cangel on S3 was the thing I was "waiting" for as someone who had witnessed their friendship grown. For me, Cangel in a relationship would make the whole Angel Inc. a real family, with the inclusion of Connor. I was an innocent viewer that time, so as someone who loved those characters and treat them as real people, I really wanted those characters to be happy together with their family. Part of me also was excited to see what Cangel looked like as a legit couple, and also a part of me "hoping" to see Buffy's reaction on Angel's new love interest. What she did to Angel on Sanctuary kinda made a scar in my memory when she shoved into Angel's face her new "love", so it was interesting for me to see how it would turn out if things were the other way around. But in general, I just want to see Angel HAPPY with people he loves and loves him in return. I used to watching local soap operas with happy endings, so I was also hoping the same that Ats would turn out just the same. But then again, I was wrong. ENTIRELY WRONG.

Well, 2 decades passed, and it turns out, I watched Ats till its end, without really seeing "THE END" I was lead into since the beginning of the series. From Angel S1, I was shown a strong but damaged hero, wanting FORGIVENESS and REDEMPTION for his past sins. He was given missions to do and FRIENDS to help him out and together they could help others too. He sacrificed his own happiness to be with someone he TRULY loves, in hope that she would live her life happily even if her happiness doesn't include him. He tried to help others fighting the demons that haunted them while battling his OWN personal demon wanting to "break free". He struggled emotionally and mentally each time a karmic moment showed up because of his past sins. He strongly faced up the consequences of every decisions he made and responsibly took it as his fault. He learned in a VERY hard way, that someone still has TO DO GOOD THINGS in this world without EXPECTING ANY REWARD, because DOING such was what matters in this world.

He left Sunnydale with a broken heart and headed to Los Angeles without ANY direction, only to be given HOPE by Powers-that-be, that he could be a BETTER MAN from what and who he was....Well, that's for me I had HOPED to see. Angel The Series presented to me that Angel was a lonely being. Doyle came along, another demon who also didn't know what to do in his life until PTB gave him visions that led him to Angel. Then Cordelia, a once rich-brat, who came to Los Angeles on her own, to work on her own, and hoped to redeem herself and get back what she had lost. Then Gunn, Fred, Lorne all came along. All of them had stories to tell. All of them lived in loneliness. All of them lived in grief. And they were brought in a city where "lost souls" come. How they work together as a TEAM, was a pure joy to watch. Together they realized that there is really "other kind of family".

So with the foregoing, can you blame me if I once cheered for Cangel?

In fact, it's still a wonder to me, why some Bangel fans prefer B/S as non-Bangel couple over Cangel or even Briley. I didn't think that Greenwalt was trying to make Cordy as Buffy. Well, aside from the blond hair, I don't see the "make over" of Cordy as Buffy, even after I watched BtVS S1-S3. First of all, Buffy and Cordy are both witty. Only Buffy was more considerate about other people's feelings than Cordy was. Cordy was brutally honest on BtVS S1-S3. But she started to change when she joined the Scoobies. Besides what she said are all insightful. She passed all the college entrance she took, right? She just couldnt afford to go to college because she was broke. When she came to Los Angeles, she could have been an easy prey. But she held back when she felt uncomfortable by Russel Winters' offer. She still managed to uphold her integrity even if it was only on last minute. She could have ran away with her first rich date, but she chose to stay with Angel Inc. In "Birthday", it was revealed what "options" Cordy could have taken, if she didn't see Angel on that party. On that alternate version of herself, she was given A CHOICE, to LIVE THE LIFE SHE WANTED and leave Angel behind as a crazy vampire with visions, or choose to stay and work for Angel even if she had been warned that having visions would eventually kill her. She CHOSE TO STAY WITH ANGEL.

So...again, I don't understand why there's much despise about Cangel than B/S, when the relationship between Cordy and Angel DEVELOPED WITHOUT THE NEED TO ABUSE EACH OTHER???? And if there's a hate about Cangel but not B/S because of cordy "trying to be buffy", eh, what about Spuke BtVS S7 and S8...and S9, and S10 and ....um, S11?!!!

Sorry guys, but Cangel was dead the moment Cordelia died. I don't think bringing it back as topic of conversation just to talk about it an unappreciative way, is the proper way to look back at their wonderful friendship. Cordelia's death in "You're Welcome" is the most devastating thing I witnessed as an Ats fan, but also realized that it was some sort of "graceful exit" joss could give about Cordy, considering the constraints and the narrative he made for Season 5. It's ironic for me how that episode was the only gleaming light for me for all Season 5, along with Smile Time, given the fact that I hated to see that Cordelia was REALLY gone.

With the topic if Angel was "in-love" with Cordy, I don't think he was "in-love" with Cord like the Bangel type of love. And if things were different, I still don't think that Cangel is at par with Bangel's EPIC-ness. I agree that Angel tends to be caring and protective. What Angelus' behavior as possessive, Angel manifested as protective. I think it's natural that Angel shows caring and love for those people he's with especially with female ones. Probably he was overcompensating from his past sins or his human nature as Liam as "lover of women". Whatever it is, I think Angel tends to establish "emotional connection" with Cordy because she was someone he was with for most days. When Doyle died, they grieved together. When Cordy was tormented with her visions on To Shanshu in LA, Angel was REALLY worried that she too would be taken away from him. And many things happened in between that showed how Cordy and Angel cared for each other. That's why I think their friendship was well developed in S3. So it's not wonder to me, if they developed deeper as more than friends. If Gru didnt show up, perhaps what happened in "Waiting in the Wings" could have developed in a much better way, instead of using Gru as means to realize that Cordy wanted Angel instead of Gru.

In anyways, the events lead to Cangel in romantic setting at the end of S3. But I think now everything was just an experiment on "how the audience would react". So as it turned out, Bangel fans didn't like Cangel. B/S fans wanted Cangel to happen so Angel could leave Buffy alone. And for non-shipper viewer such as me before, I just let everything to unfold, as long as I see Angel be finally forgiven and be happy in life without the burden of his curse.

After Cordy died, I have been surprised to still see how some Bangel fans resent this pairing. A part of me understands it, if the reasons were ship-motivated. But other than that, forgive me, but I really don't see any reason why this pairing should be hated again and again.

It was not a popular pairing for btvs fandom. But for purely Ats fandom, who preferred Ats than Btvs, Cangel is a treasure. Cangel friendship is an ideal one for heterosexuals if such friendship would be developed in "romantic" one, INSTEAD of the "mortal enemies sexually abusing each other one-sided love affair and lots of years later developing it as healthy relationship" kind of thing. just saying.

I apologize again, but I don't mean any harm to those who criticize Cangel. But as saying goes, there's no use of speaking ill about DEAD things. Let it rest. Besides, I don't see anything HARMFUL or OFFENSIVE for what Cangel stood for, in GENERAL and a non-shipper motivated sense.

That's all. Happy new year again.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 6:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if I offended or came off strongly anti-Cangel to offend you. I do feel very strongly against the romantic Cangel ship (and have many personal feelings on Cordelia particularly) and I guess I figured this was a good place to share those thoughts considering it's a B/A discussion forum.

You will never catch me defending anything about the Spuffy relationship BUT, what I do RESPECT is that the BTVS writers respected Buffy's history with Angel and addressed that relationship during the time she was carrying on with Spike. And in fact in the comics, Spike is still shown to have some insecurities regarding Angel.

While Spuffy never tried to replicate or supplant what Buffy had with Angel, Cangel tries to "replace" Buffy in Angel's life. In fact, Tim Minear said that himself. He said that is why he said the Darla arc was so great because it didn't touch Buffy but the Cordy thing did. And that is why many fans had such a bad reaction to it, myself included.

Quote:
B/S fans wanted Cangel to happen so Angel could leave Buffy alone.


I agree with you on this point. So many spuffy fans are very vocal Cangel shippers. I view the reason for this two fold:

1. If Angel's "true love" is Cordy then it means Bangel is dead and their ship lives.
2. I also think that Spuffy shippers tend to like Angel's extroverted character from s3 more because he is less broody and quiet (many of these fans are Spike fans and find Angel boring) so they see Cordelia as "bringing him out of his shell" - where as I see it as Cordelia (or really the writers) trying to change a character I know and love.

Quote:
But for purely Ats fandom, who preferred Ats than Btvs, Cangel is a treasure.


I am a huge AtS fan. Most of my current fics are sent in AtS - oddly. I love BtVS as well don't get me wrong but I would say I'm a fan of both shows equally and I do not find Cangel a treasure. So I think it really there are many different types of fans of AtS that are not so Cangel invested, it really all depends on what ship you identify with.

I respect your opinions and I think at least we share a common belief that Angel and Buffy have a special bond that transcends all else Smile.
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elle2
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 7:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
You will never catch me defending anything about the Spuffy relationship BUT, what I do RESPECT is that the BTVS writers respected Buffy's history with Angel and addressed that relationship during the time she was carrying on with Spike. And in fact in the comics, Spike is still shown to have some insecurities regarding Angel.


i guess that's one of the things we disagree upon. I don't think Spuke's "insecurities" regarding Angel makes B/S "better" than what Cangel has been. I don't see any respect it did for Bangel as well. The mere fact that those insecurities are used to make Spuke "better" than Angel, (even if we don't really think he is better than Angel) is what irks me most. The writers are thinking lots of ways to "IMPROVE" spuke using as Angel as the standard, while on the process that making Angel stays "as he is". So, it means, Spuke's insecurity can make him be a better version of Angel has ever been; meaning, have a soul without worrying of losing it and killing everybody he loves.

Quote:
While Spuffy never tried to replicate or supplant what Buffy had with Spike, Cangel tries to "replace" Buffy in Angel's life. In fact, Tim Minear said that himself. He said that is why he said the Darla arc was so great because it didn't touch Buffy but the Cordy thing did. And that is why many fans had such a bad reaction to it, myself included.


To be fair, I didn't know what interview Minear said that Cangel "replicating" Bangel. But if the intention was there, we all know that it wasn't really the case. And like i said, even if things were different at the end of Ats S3, i don't think Cangel "replicated" Bangel. Cordy is not Buffy. But I have to admit I like Cordy's development as a character on Ats, than Buffy has been on Btvs later seasons. As a young adult when I watched it, I got more inspiration from Cordy Ats version than Buffy S6-S7.

But in anyways, like you and I agreed, Cangel doesn't hold a candle compared to Bangel. Even if the intention was there, it didn't happen. And I was hoping, that's the end of resentment towards Cangel.

Quote:
I am a huge AtS fan. Most of my current fics are sent in AtS - oddly. I love BtVS as well don't get me wrong but I would say I'm a fan of both shows equally and I do not find Cangel a treasure. So I think it really there are many different types of fans of AtS that are not so Cangel invested, it really all depends on what ship you identify with.


I'm sorry but I guess you misquote me. What I'm referring to are the Ats fans who PREFER Ats more than Btvs. You love both shows equally, so I respect your opinion. But I've seen sentiments from those Ats fans who don't care about Btvs much as Ats and they are the ones who TREASURE Cangel, as for them, their friendship was one of the MOST INTEGRAL part of the whole Angel series, apart from btvs.

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I respect your opinions and I think at least we share a common belief that Angel and Buffy have a special bond that transcends all


always glad to know that Bangel always bond us all in this community. But I have to apologize again, that I don't see any point why there should be bitterness against Cangel. There were constraints during the live series, that we can't do anything about.

Unlike the comics series. I'm afraid the constraints both btvs and ats had on tv airing were no longer apparent in the comic versions. It's just a matter of CHOICE of the writers if they would bring back Bangel together and preserve its integrity as the THE ONE TRUE PAIR of the whole slayer and vampire verse.

I still can't get over the fact that in the comic world where ANYTHING is possible, only getting BANGEL BACK TOGETHER is the MOST IMPOSSIBLE thing to do for joss and company.

That's all. have a great day!
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 31, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey,elle2 I also want to apologize if I upset or offended you.I was just trying to give dcai0830 some info as I remember it from that time when the shows originally aired.

I've been watching BTVS since the middle of season 2 in Jan. of 1998.My first two episodes were,"Surprise" and "Innocence" as they aired as the Buffy two night event(Surprise on Monday,Innocence on Tuesday) to hype Buffy's move to The WB New Tuesdays.

So I remember what was going on in fandom during those days and the stuff coming out behind the scenes and in interviews.

Again,I apologize

I will admit I actually don't like A/C and at the time of airing liked it even less then B/S.Today,I dislike spuffy so much more due to how that has continued.

The reason I disliked Cangel more than Spuffy at the time were for three reasons.

1)I was always more okay with Buffy in another romantic relationship.

I felt of course Buffy would have other romantic relationships .She is a young adult and this would be normal.

Now I wasn't a fan of Buffy/Riley but that was oore that I felt Riley was dull.I understood the point of having Buffy try to move on and understood the point of pairing her with a different sort of guy.In retrospect,the realationship makes even more sense for Buffy at that point in her life.Again,I didn't care for it but I didn't have a fundamental problem with the idea of Buffy being paired with someone else.

That's why on paper I wouldn't have had a problem with Buffy getting involved with Dowling in the comics or even Xander depending on how it was handled.

2)I got the point of spuffy as presented in season 6.Like Buffy/Riley,I disliked the story but I got what they were trying to do in season 6.You weren't supposed to be rooting for Buffy/Spike in season 6(even though many were.David Fury even went off on spuffy fans at the time because of that).Buffy/Spike was supposed to be seen as a bad and unhealthy thing.

So I got what they were doing even though I disliked it.Everything spuffy after season 6 especially what's currently going on,I just dislike period.Even season 7 I could tolerate based on what I think they were trying to do.But even the comics have sort of clouded my views of season 7 now.

That;s the thing.The comiss have effected my views and feelings on both shows as a whole.Sort of tainted them to the point where right now,I can't even go back and enjoy old episodes.What has occured in the comics has now damaged my enjoyment of the shows as a whole.

3)As my first point mentioned.I always had a fundememntal problem with new romantic pairings for Angel over Buffy because of the nature of his character and situation.

a)Angel is taking a big risk with his soul if he gets into a serious romantic relationship with anyone.By risking his soul,he is risking other people's lives.

Unless he could get his soul bound,is it worth that danger?Esepecially since unlike with Buffy,he disn't know he could lose his soul.It was no ones fault.

This time it would be his fault since he knows the risk to his soul,With Buffy it was on no one.A second time would be fully on Angel.

That's why I disliked Cangel more.It's the same reason I disliked Angel/Nina in season 5.Despite what Wesley said in "Smile Time" about the risk of Angel actually losing his soul in this way again{which leads to my B point below),is it worth the risk?Again,unless he can get his soul bound,I don't think it is.

b)If he gets involved with someone else and doesn't lose his soul,what does that say about that relationship?I think for many people it would bother them on some level and over a period of time the idea that my significant other doesn't love me enough or in a way where his soul is at risk.

Sort of a dammed if you do and damed if you don't On the one hand risk Angel losing his soul.On the other hand,if his soul isn't at risk with me,does that mean he just doesn' love me as much as Buffy?

I go to the episode,"Awakening".If that was real.How do you think Cordy or any other woman would react to Angel calling Buffy's name during love making or the aftermath and then losing his soul.

Putting the immediate danger of the return of Angelus aside,I think that would really bother a significant other.

This is why I don't have problem on paper with Angel having a fling or one night stand.I may not like it but I don't have a fundememntal problem with it.

Or something like Angel/Darla in ATS season 2.Like spuffy in season 6,that's not supposed to be seen as good or a real long lasting romantic pairing.Unlike spuffy in season 6 though,I really liked the Angel/Dara story of season 2.Season 2 of ATS is actually my favorite season of the sho{even though my favorite episode is in season 1).

So atleast for me,at the time,that's why I had more of a problem with and disliked Cangel more than spuffy.That ofcourse has changed.

Quote:
Unlike the comics series. I'm afraid the constraints both btvs and ats had on tv airing were no longer apparent in the comic versions. It's just a matter of CHOICE of the writers if they would bring back Bangel together and preserve its integrity as the THE ONE TRUE PAIR of the whole slayer and vampire verse.


Agreed.with the comics now,they don't have a network split(even a comic company split was workable in season Cool with bad blood on one side,nor actor availability or money issues.

I know how much you like"You're Welcome" but actor availability was why that episode happened as it did.

They originally wanted Buffy for the 100th episode of ATS.Buffy was supposed to be the one to get Angel back on his feet and believing in himself again.But SMG had to back out due to a death in her family which is why they brought CC back then(I think they would of brought her back in a later episode if SMG had been able to do the 100th).

With the comics,you don't have any of these factors.They can do whatever they want as far as these things are concerned.

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I still can't get over the fact that in the comic world where ANYTHING is possible, only getting BANGEL BACK TOGETHER is the MOST IMPOSSIBLE thing to do for joss and company.


A few years ago,Scott Allie told me via email and Christos Gage said more recently on twitter that B/A can't be borught back together until BTVS is ending/over.

I ask.... Why?

At this point a new B/A story about them working there way back together woul be much more interesting than more spuffy.

We've had some form of spuffy in seasons 5(the beginning from Spike's prospective),6,7,9,10,11(and if there is a 12,probably there too atleast to start).At this point,this needs to be shelved because it's way worn out where with B/A you could do something fresh.If anything Spike should be moved into his own series or co-lead with Faith(my preferred choice) and Angel moved back to BTVS.It would be better for BTVS,Angel(since they are going in circles with him now in his own series) and Spike.Ending spuffy and moving Spike on and into his own series or co-lead with Faith would be the best thing for his character at this point IMO.The character is a shell of himself now in the comics.

Moving Angel into his own show was the best thing for his character at that time.And it would be the best thing for Spike now.
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