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Buffy Season 3: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a very good parallel Grace and I would gif it except I have a rule against giffing Spike/Spuffy content. lol
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's a very good policy, Mylie!

But let's just look at the screencaps for fun...


It is me, right?


I don't wanna be the one.

(Source)


Last edited by Grace Newman on Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:34 pm; edited 1 time in total
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lol. You should put this on tumblr. It’s pretty great.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you Grace!!

Pretty great comparison.

I'll add one Smile



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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's another good one, Mylie. And it's interesting because for me that Touched image summons up another scene from Season 3. I can never look at it and not think of this:



Buffy reminds me of Anne Buffy. In total despair. And I *know* I'm reading too much into it (and not necessarily being fair), but the way they are positioned just says to me that Buffy is still carrying *him,* even when she's at her lowest. She's still his savior and what he offers is worship, not respite. (He was on his knees during the speech and everything.) I do think Buffy takes strength from that experience with Spike, but it seems more like a reminder that she can't put down her heavy load, that she has to keep going.

Whereas during that scene in End of Days/Chosen, the world just falls away and she doesn't feel the weight at *all*.



(Screencaps from the same source as above.)
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes!!! She honestly looks so miserable and I don't understand that choice at all? She finds strength in that speech and night with him in the text but what we see on screen is someone who looks so tired, miserable and very uncomfortable.

I will always treasure that I just want to bask scene because it is so rewarding as a bangel fan, but also... without it, I don't think I would have been able to enjoy the end to Buffy's journey. Because it had not felt like Buffy Summers for such a long time and I feel like in that scene we finally get to see her again! She has warmth and she looks alive. I really wish they could have had more time to film that scene but I'm still really happy with the result. And it's not just that little moment... it's the banter, her joke about Caleb splitting up, the cookie speech. What is arguably her most important character scene in the finale happens with Angel. She opens up about her state of mind and future, etc. To me, this confirms that Angel will always be the one person she WANTS to open up to. And it seems so effortless to her, even after all those years apart.

Sorry for the gushing... I know not everyone is a fan of Chosen and the cookie dough speech but I LOVE IT.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2018 2:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

3x19 Choices
Written by David Fury
Directed by James A. Contner
Original air date: May 4, 1999



Summary from BuffyGuide.com: "The gang all faces decisions about their futures; Willow ends up in danger when Buffy tries to take the offense against the Mayor."

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?
2. What did you think about Willow?
3. How about Faith and The Mayor?
4. How did you feel about the B/A in this one?
5. Favorite lines/scenes?
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 19, 2018 4:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode? "It's a good fight, Buffy, and I want in" is probably my favorite Willow moment of the entire series. Overall, I really enjoy Choices, though of course the ending is a downer and I know what's coming...

What did you think about Willow?  I did wonder why she didn't try to sneak out instead of going for the Books of Ascension, but in the end, I think it's probably unlikely that she would have made it out of the building on her own, so trying to research was a good use of time. If she had gotten caught trying to escape before ultimately being traded for the box, the Scoobies would have ended up literally back at square one, whereas at least they got a little info this way.

I loved her face-off with Faith. Just like Faith, I always expect Willow to try to reason with her, and it's so satisfying when she doesn't.

I was surprised to find myself somewhat agreeing with Wesley in the library scene, though. I'm not saying that the Scoobies should have just consigned Willow to death, but it didn't necessarily seem like they considered every option.

As Taaroko writes:
Quote:
Now, at this point, the Scoobies don't know that they won't be able to stop the Mayor before he kills anyone else, but they also know that destroying the box will guarantee that the Mayor's plans fail, and it's their only lead. They just bought Willow's life for the price of Snyder, Larry, Harmony, and all the unnamed people who get killed in "Graduation Day: Part 2." I love Willow, and I love the final battle with the Mayor, but the cost is heavy.


How about Faith and The Mayor?  On rewatch, I was even more convinced that The Mayor's speech about Buffy and Angel in the cafeteria was largely for Faith's benefit. As he says, he plans to kill Buffy and Angel, so their long-term prospects aren't really important. But it's a good way for him to further endear himself to Faith and convince her that she's got it better than Buffy and that Angel is no prize. And then of course we see that Faith has a hard time leaving her special gift from The Mayor behind.

How did you feel about the B/A in this one? I love them and I am frustrated by them. They're a great team when they're going up against demons or The Mayor's goons, but they're not communicating. Which is especially not good after that whole air-clearing conversation in Earshot. I think their fight-cute in the beginning is about Buffy's unhappiness at staying behind in Sunnydale while (she assumes) her friends all move on, but she doesn't come out and say that. And it's obvious that they're both uncomfortable at the end, so I wish one of them would just say something about it.

But figuring out a way to work through their issues is not exactly an option on the table at this point. Sad

Favorite lines/scenes?

Buffy: That's where they make Gileses.

Xander: I can't help it. It's my nature.
Willow: Maybe you need a better nature.

Buffy: I know it's complicated. I'm aware that my graduation may be, among other things, posthumous, but...

Vampire: You killed him.
Faith: What are you, the narrator?


There's almost nothing to share from the script. Only minor tweaks here and there. Arlene is described as Joyce's cousin (instead of Buffy's aunt) in the script, which makes more sense to me given the way she's talked about.

Also, I liked David Fury's description of the spell that Oz and Xander were working on:

Quote:
In the midst of the room is a set up not unlike the living flame deal from ep 7: a small pedestal with a bowl in middle, various herbs and magick crap sitting on it.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 12:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

Ugh Cordelia. Just like - why? What did Buffy do to you, seriously? What she tells Buffy is so harsh. Xander cheated on her with Willow, Buffy has nothing to do with it. Why does she insist on blaming Buffy for her problems? there is nothing redeemable about Cordy to me in this episode. I guess at the end is when I'm supposed to feel sorry for her. But they always lose me on the Cordelia sympathy train, it's not written for me. I'm supposed to feel bad for her because she has to work at a retail store? I had to work retail in high school too. It's not all that tragic really.

Angel and Faith:
Does Faith really like Angel or is it just about taking something from Buffy? Something that Buffy has? The Mayor talks about how she is still upset about the Angel thing. My impression is that Angel is just another thing that Buffy has that Faith does not. It's not that she is interested in him as much as she wants what Buffy has.

With regards to the Willow moral dilemma. I think its hard to argue that Wesley isn't right. I wonder if Angel knows it too. They cut to him after Wesley says that thousands of lives are at stake and he looks down. Either way, Willow is, at this point in the show, the epitome of everything innocent, good and pure and I'm not surprised by Buffy's reaction. I am actually very surprised by Giles' reaction though, which seems wildly inconsistent with the position he takes in season 5 with Dawn.

Mayor's Speech:

Grace Newman wrote:
On rewatch, I was even more convinced that The Mayor's speech about Buffy and Angel in the cafeteria was largely for Faith's benefit. As he says, he plans to kill Buffy and Angel, so their long-term prospects aren't really important. But it's a good way for him to further endear himself to Faith and convince her that she's got it better than Buffy and that Angel is no prize.


This is very interesting and probably the best way to explain why he is going off on this tirade when he plans to kill them. But also, a part of me wonders if he isn't just showing some of his humanity. First, we know that the Mayor is an interesting and layered Big Bad. He seems to care about Allen when he dies, and we know he cares about Faith. His humanity, in fact is his weakness. Does he have a soul? He was with his wife for all of her life until the very end. He has the capacity to love. A part of me wonders if he doesn't see himself in them two (even if they are just mirrors to his past that will be dead soon in his eyes). Maybe it stirs something inside him, that paternal or human side of him. His own regrets?

I would like to take a moment to share about the first time I watched this episode. I was in high school, maybe a sophomore in high school? But I remember when I heard the Mayor's speech I was so upset. I remember I called my friend who was also a big Buffy fan and vented (she knew that Angel was leaving but I didn't know that yet because I was behind a season.) I thought: Why was this man saying these stupid horrible things? Buffy and Angel would work it out. They loved each other and they wouldn't let some bad guy come in between them. (Basically the ENTIRE conversation that Buffy and Angel have in the cemetery). Anyway, its funny the denial was strong with me. I think if I had watched the show as an adult for the first time I would've known at that very moment that it was over. But it's interesting to look back at how your view of the show changes at different stages in your life?

2. What did you think about Willow?

I like Willow so much in this episode. She is very brave. She is finally coming into her own. I'm trying to ignore where I know the magic thing is going to go and just enjoy that I feel she finally shows how she is committing to this cause. This isn't just about Buffy this is because she feels strongly that she can help. And it's lovely. I'm a pretty big Willow fan, especially in the early years, so I love seeing Willow progress in this way.

3. How about Faith and The Mayor?

At this point in the seasons, I really thought that The Mayor was manipulating Faith with his actions. Giving her what he thought she needed to hear so that he could continue to control her. By the end of the season my opinion changes. But the Mayor really is hitting all of the right buttons with Faith. He is the father/authority/caring figure she never had. And he knows that what she wants to hear is that she is better than Buffy because she has a serious inferiority complex when it comes to her.

And while it wasn't Giles' responsibility to do so, had Giles' stepped it up, had he been more caring or involved or had he showed Faith that he was there for her and cared for her I wonder if Faith wouldn't have gone down the same path. After all, if she had accidentally killed the man and she had felt she could have turned to Giles perhaps she never would've ended up with the Mayor.

4. How did you feel about the B/A in this one?

I'm all about the B/A in this episode. This is IMO one of the most underrated B/A episodes.

It warms my heart to see Angel back in the mix with the scoobies. Why couldn't we have seen this just a few more episodes? Just a teeny tiny bit more? I would've loved that.

I love their fight scene at the beginning and the "honey." I love the scene of them fighting when getting the box. I've said this before a billion times but just seeing them work as partners. I love finally seeing the power couple I know they can be. Without focusing on the dialogue of the last scene, we see them having a little date? It's just cute because this is Buffy's life, she is always going to be the slayer and so seeing her get to have someone who can fit so easily in her life, who she can be the slayer with and have some cuddle time on a blanket that I'm SURE Angel brought is sweet. But...

The final scene, to me, shows that Buffy is very much still trying to live a normal life. She is making plans for college, and how much fun this is going to be, she is talking about living in her dorm, and about she will come and visit Angel. It really drives home the point that Buffy still wants it all and Angel understands in short order that him being there places limitations to that. It sucks so much. But I get it.

(SIDE NOTE: What in the WORLD is up with Angel's shirt in the final scene?
Is it like a silk print shirt? I can barely see it but it doesn't look so great.)

5. Favorite lines/scenes?

"I have to have a plan? I can't just be proactive with pep?"

"Yeah. Nobody like my Willow." I love Oz's quiet love for Willow.

"Well what can I say? I like 'em sane."

"It's a good fight Buffy and I want in." - Agree with Grace - this is a great line.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
I had to work retail in high school too. It's not all that tragic really.

Ha! Me too! I made great friends working retail in high school, actually.

dcai0830 wrote:
Maybe it stirs something inside him, that paternal or human side of him. His own regrets?

Yeah, I think he believes what he's saying, as far as it goes. Buffy and Angel are actually facing problems that are way worse than his were, even, given that he can walk in the sunlight, hold down an above-average job, and doesn't have to worry about experiencing a moment of perfect happiness. But I also don't really think he was trying to be nice.

dcai0830 wrote:
I would like to take a moment to share about the first time I watched this episode. I was in high school, maybe a sophomore in high school? But I remember when I heard the Mayor's speech I was so upset. I remember I called my friend who was also a big Buffy fan and vented (she knew that Angel was leaving but I didn't know that yet because I was behind a season.) I thought: Why was this man saying these stupid horrible things? Buffy and Angel would work it out. They loved each other and they wouldn't let some bad guy come in between them. (Basically the ENTIRE conversation that Buffy and Angel have in the cemetery). Anyway, its funny the denial was strong with me. I think if I had watched the show as an adult for the first time I would've known at that very moment that it was over. But it's interesting to look back at how your view of the show changes at different stages in your life?

This is so great. I love it.

dcai0830 wrote:
And while it wasn't Giles' responsibility to do so, had Giles' stepped it up, had he been more caring or involved or had he showed Faith that he was there for her and cared for her I wonder if Faith wouldn't have gone down the same path.

Yeah, I think Giles' judgment is definitely questionable when it comes to Faith. Like, why didn't he think it was his responsibility on some level to help out another slayer? Why was he OK with her running off whenever it suited her and living in a motel? Watchers seem to frequently take over the guardian role for the slayers, taking them away from their real parents, so you'd think there would be a usual procedure for stuff like that. Even after what happened with Gwendolyn Post, Giles didn't seem to check on Faith or care about her at all. Then again, this was around the time he was drugging Buffy. Sigh.

(And since I know you're rewatching Same Time, Same Place, why did Giles think it was OK to send Willow home before her treatment thing was finished without coming with her? Buffy, Xander and Dawn know next to nothing about magic or how to help Willow. If Giles thinks it's important for her to finish her recovery back in Sunnydale, why doesn't he go too? Didn't he learn anything from Season 6 at all?!)


I'm really glad you posted about Choices, because I've been wanting to go back to our discussion on Earshot. Smile

I was upset before at the idea of Buffy thinking that Angel would have a thing for Faith even after she was revealed to be evil. I understood they were going for a bit of irrational jealousy on Buffy's part, but it still bothered me.

But then I started thinking more about Faith *as* Buffy. Like, they hit us over the head with it a lot but I hadn't really applied it to this situation. Buffy says in Doppelgangland that she could be Faith in different circumstances, and we have seen Buffy be tempted by the dark side in Bad Girls, though obviously she pulls back quickly.

So what if this is on some level about her fears of becoming Faith ("What are you gonna do, B, kill me? You become me.")? If Buffy turned bad, Angel wouldn't immediately stop loving her. We saw that with Buffy's feelings toward Angel in Season 2 (and Faith mentioned it in Consequences: "Bet a part of you even dug him when he went psycho.") So maybe Buffy is seeing Faith more as a "bad Buffy." This makes me feel a lot better about the idea of Buffy thinking Angel could want evil Faith!

Buffy needs to know that Angel wouldn't prefer a bad version of her. She needs to get reassurance that he loves her as she is. It even makes me feel better about the "To the naked eye it looked like fun" line, because I can appreciate it more as being about Buffy, rather than thinking about what it says about what she thinks of Angel.

I understand I am majorly overthinking this, but I like it anyway.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2018 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interesting theory re Buffy/Faith deal. So do you think Buffy believes that if she went evil Angel would still love her because she knows that she continued to love him?

Giles makes me very frustrated alot of times but I try not to over think it. Sometimes I think generally when I over think these characters I'm probably putting more thought than the writers did themselves and all of them eventually become problematic lol. But it's tough not to explore them in that way.
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