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Clare Kramer Talks Buffy Reboot.
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cheryl
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 2:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A continuation of Buffy with SMG, DB, ASH, AH and NB is a dream come true to many of us. To have Joss in the drivers seat truly driving the bus. Oh yes, why thank you, I will sign up for that every single day of the week.

Thanks Comic, I hadn't seen this until I signed in at the Haven. Very sweet surprise. Smile
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comic fan
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Again, comic fan, dont get me wrong with my post. I dont intend to hurt your feelings


No feelings hurt or anything.I just being over the articles as I see them.Even if they cover the same news,I'm always interested in the different opinions the writers of the articles give..

I doubt anything will come of this latest on a Buffy reunion for various reasons.

Nice to hear from you,Cheryl.
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sybil
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to laugh a little that a revisit isn’t to be an utter "reprisal"—which are actually the rage. HOWEVER, I am waiting for Kitty Pryde to take a dive into the core of the planet, for one, with a great big cuddle with her ‘Angel-love aka Colussus’ because really I have always been so wrong what the story JOSS STARTED of Buffy and Angel really is or even requires, as HE wrote it, for BOTH of them. Talk about a “dangling participle.”

IF Joss were to EVER revisit BTVS, he would do "FRAY" because a. Fray is a comic book b. already shown as a comic book within a comic book of BTVS comics—and ‘inside’ the ‘inside’—black, dark, but “everyone’s really just gots lotsa reasons” is ‘Tim Minear territory’; c. the Xander figure is both Fray’s brother and a vampire, of course, but with “designs” on Fray—behold the mythicness, but also the ‘combined fandoms’ in Angelus AND Spike—with Fray herself doing anything to save this ‘Xander figure’—heart burn all! AND! We get dystopian worlds that are all the rage, with Fray the waif against the juggernaut of ALL humanity’s unworthiness that describes the hero/human in one act: death. YEA! Only not really, because denying her life isn’t the point: the pain is. IT IS A SNUFF MOVIE.

That means Joss’s use of ‘horror’ that should have agenda does not make him a “truthteller” but only a torturer.

For those who try to write e.g. Kairos and darkstar, who actually prove me right that good writing is clear in complexities, shows the use of “torture” to show “triumph”—even if something horribly human lies within the torturer (and mercy for those who forgivably succumb), subtlety in assertions, assumes the worth of their own characters in honor of their own time to “spit it out” and that of their readers.

Pain alone is not drama—it is (very figurative language FOR BREVITY ONLY ) “kicking a bum” –he DESERVES it. (see ‘Silicon Valley’—a COMEDY (?) a genius protagonist ever giving away his algorithms to the worst of the corrupt to only do it again). “Conflict” is not the only story for “drama,” there is “curiosity” that drives the human who would grow in some of that ‘getting to know you” a reader should want to invest their time and thought. There are mysteries, discoveries and surprises that also widen the world of understanding and that do exist within INTIMACY that makes for a greater life and balance and (reason to root for the protagonist) in the telling of the “truth of the tale.”

“All may be lost,” is “drama,” but showing ‘nothing remains’ (but a burned out cinder) gobbled by the nearest nebula isn’t a life, isn’t a romance, isn’t the scope of the story, isn’t even reality/REALITY.

If anyone wants to understand that perfect sound of Joss Whedon’s work—while you chuckle, of course— recall the opening trumpet on “House of Cards.”
It is the call to duty and danger, the glory of love made wholly sentimental, hollow, wrapped in the holy flag of corrupted abusers, and the exhale of time through the lungs of the vampire. Behold the 6 foot 6 inch “waif,” born with kung fu and admired for Krav Maga—with legs that sprout from her ears, yet feet that stand “en pointe” in a dream ballet she was actually never tough enough to actually learn. But thousands do.

Sorry, Cheryl. IF destroying “his child” Buffy, Fray, Cordelia, wasn’t his goal, then why would the boss of all those “children,” who are just trying to “win favor” and “approval” to actually eat/survive declare his feminism in acquiring “permission” to “use’ the talented, “desperately needy” for his bed? Hilarious why he just can’t show “marriage” is NOT just plain beyond HIS ability to show. see THE TEMPEST, Shakespeare's last (and my favorite) play. ANd that guy was a man. See Madam Secretary, the story of a marriage. With a lot of help. ha!

I just love Buffy and Angel and I really don't need anyone messing it up, including Joss. He does what he does, but his best love story needs to be left alone within the original context it was given and that was completely hopeful.

Be well!
HUGS!
sybil
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cheryl
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 10:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why are you sorry? Everyone has an opinion. It's all good. Mine is that this will happen and it will be great. Great for Buffy. Great for Angel. Great for us and great for Joss. I am looking forward to all of it. Very Happy
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sybil
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am delighted your real life gave you a beat to profess your Joss love and B/A belief.

Because "it will be great" means something you see in your own mind's eye, I guess I have to ask the 'particulars' of how that greatness looks in specifics...Buffy and Angel will "solve their problems" to be together; if so, HOW will that look as in is Angel a (cursed?) vampire, is Buffy still the slayer, is this a "look back" how they arrived at achieving their PERSONAL goals, let alone "saving the world" might have to actually look different than is "text" comic book solutions, especially with Willow's "powers," and "what about" Dawn and Connor? Do you think Joss would "save" Spike and "crazy" Dru--what of Faith? Fillyria?

"It will be great" doesn't help me see what you see is satisfactory "enough" to maintain your belief Joss isn't "catering" to more "wagon training" when it comes to both fandoms and the actual element/character of "time" itself.

If you would use 'fairy tale' motifs within mythical structures, there is a point to get to and "SEINFELD" solutions, within battle sequences and misty eyes isn't "epic" to me. Just sayin'

I really would appreciate your commentary, if you believe that "B/A" are an old married couple handing off their 'legacy' to some new cast, for example, as has been done to "Star Wars/Trek" et al.

Thanks a bunch!
Hugs!
sybil
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cheryl
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great for me is the following...

Together you are powerful, alone you're dead.
Fighting is hard and painful but they do it together.
No weapon, no friends, no hope. What's left? Buffy and that's more than enough. Always has been.

I could go on and on and on. Point is that all I ever needed as a fan is more of these beautiful and true moments. More of this one of a kind dialog that was always reserved for Buffy and Angel.

Always is forever and forever never ends. It's still the point. All they have ever needed is an anchor to keep Angelus tied down. Angel is a smart boy, maybe this time around he will find it. Wanting something so bad you'd risk your soul? Powerful stuff. That something giving you perfect happiness? Beautiful stuff. Powerful and beautiful, that's our super couple.

So I want more of the same and only Joss's heart can give it to me. No new characters, no new mythology and no new writers. Joss with a pen and Buffy on his mind. When that transpires magic happens. It literally transcends everything.
You still my girl? Always
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
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Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 5:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

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As to other characters, sorry Mylie, as interesting as your views that you would want to see Dawn continue her story, nobody would be interested to see Dawn.


I would, actually! Dawn is my favorite character in Season 7 and I love her in the comics.
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sybil
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 6:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

THANKS! So much, dear Cheryl for your reply!

I guess I am a clod and those operatic suspended moments alone ARE epic and “epically done” in hitting every beautiful note of my own sensibilities, particularly because that which is thought and felt was shown as a most natural human reality—especially regarding opposing assumptions about beliefs.

However, sometimes, in the “telling of the tale” Buffy’s always waking alone made the beauty of love itself a dream that wasn’t supposed to have a tangible reality. And to that, I have to look to the individuals themselves, as they were CHANGED in their approach to their own lives. That is why the “everyday” was important, and the “everyday” in which they “sort things”—these two don’t always agree: both need space to grow—but I believe they did that difficult work better in the presence of each other, with the rare ability to actually listen to someone ELSE, rather than “assumption,” as providing a differing POV to make INFORMED choices. More on that later re Spike.

Don’t forget, I really do believe the power YOU give to OTHERS over your experience determines if you have the tools to maintain equilibrium and move forward with anything resembling actual wisdom (that isn’t one-sided in the division of self to rigid idealism/cynicism or worse, nihilism).

Buffy sees Angel’s humanity as central to his identity, and that means she does see he has flaws, e.g. impatience and “all or nothing” action because he is very bright and (experienced) in “big picture thinking” or the “grand gesture” that she (used to) make morally naïve. See that she actually didn’t just “use a bull dozer” in the cemetery and stake every body in it or even kill every demon “just walking,” but harming none.

“Idealism” isn’t problematic to me within their romance, as it is normal to present “the best foot forward” of the self and shows “some effort” in respecting you and your boundaries or sensibilities. Culturally speaking, maintaining the “formal” was a great part of showing respect within courting and especially marriage. That is why I enjoy seeing the great balance of deep respect within intimacy, both for the self and the other. The ragged nakedness of broken humanity is a Joss trademark and the “damage” of consequence is actually the “show” of learning or not. (Not to mention, the “shape of love.”).

Now then, regarding idealism. One of the only bodily functions shared in and with the public is eating; and I don’t blame Buffy for being in “denial” about Angel’s liquid diet, which is a reminder he is indeed a vampire aka neither mortal or normal; despite being “so much more” because of his ability to struggle always when he would choose his humanity, and thus, “worthy” of Buffy’s own, even as she fights “the darkness” and “becoming hard” (callous, uncaring, inhuman); and thus, they are so recognizable as “same” within their very souls.

Yet, Angel is utterly concerned that Buffy retains her ties to the “normal” and “mortal” world of light, no matter how much he admires her unique powers as slayer.

It was Spike, POSING as a truth teller, who said the slayer is at a disadvantage to the vampire, in having to reach for some tool—never mind her quick thinking and ability to adapt; he said she NEEDED the darkness to “not feel so bad” that she not only enjoys the ACT of killing vampires, but the KILLING itself—never mind she utterly changed her M. O. in “catching” the vampire/demon in the actual ACT of attempting murder on PEOPLE, not to kill on “appearance,” and even to go so far as merely the CHOICE to do such evil so and THAT means she was in LOVE with DEATH. His logic is that the relief she got after “the dance with darkness * in killing * left her emptied and even “sad” because the “real relief” from her FATE, aka “no good MORAL choice, wasn’t an end to HER having to “keep on doing it”—never mind she “shared her knowledge with all the potentials” that they would have actual choice to continue as slayers or not. So on all three points Spike, the evil, WAS EVIL! Only the human sensibility is capable to be self effacing enough to consider “the self” in another POV; that these points as a possible reality are because ANYTHING is a possible. But not necessarily TRUE. THAT is why we learn, WHY we struggle to assert our free will and even CHANGE our minds that can change our actions, and THAT actually does “save the world.”

Angel clearly shows he knows where Buffy’s REAL strength and uniqueness and even power is rooted, and he experienced it and said so: MERCY. Even as he felt he should leave to ensure she had the space to grow up in whatever “rituals” she felt were important to her experience, and to do so, specifically, with the support of the light in the world, her family AND IN HER AUTONOMY.

I’m sorry, but ATS never confronted “Angel’s problem” with his fundamental damage and beliefs, as clearly outlined in “Amends,” THE WEAK MAN. Why? His damage is “unworthiness” and “Judgment” by “father” in three guises. His biological father, his FATHER, and thus, his own sense to NOT be either, with himself as “father”: thus, MISTAKEN beliefs that keep him “stuck’ as a vampire.

“Free will” is indeed a part of it, but NOT the solution to Angel himself. Angel’s drive toward self-annihilation made him unable to give up the driving impatience (hubris) in the “beau geste” aka to “kill them all” to accomplish the “purity” of “worthiness” and do so in the time frame of his very human lover.

I think his job was actually in providing “sanctuary” for others to “rest” for them to actually exercise their own free will. While Buffy changed so much, Angel never really did BECAUSE “you can’t save them all” was NEVER his job. (It was to “save himself” AS the world to be saved). He had to learn HOW to save himself with the very tools he has been given, JUST AS XANDER DID.


A. Liam’s own father was flawed in how he tried to protect his son and the difficulties of surviving political realities. B. his own Catholicism is “selective.” The Father who created man ALSO provided MERCY in the UNLIMITED SACRIFICE of Jesus, proving humanity’s WORTH to HIM, in showing and PROVING He ACCOMPLISHED THEIR REDEMPTION.

I see in most religions that redemption is always there each time one exercises his own free will to understand, accept and exercise this wisdom in the shape of LOVE. In Christianity, this is the mercy GOD HAS GIVEN YOU and PROVED for you in how to celebrate this very redemption with the self and in the “other.” (“Love thy neighbor as thyself”). This does not impose on another’s beliefs for that is their own work; it is the joy God meant for you to know, DESPITE your flaws, yet God PROVED He thinks you are worthy of mercy, redemption, and the right to choose to take it.

I am aware religions are complex in ‘process’ and even ‘judgment’ and I am not telling anyone “how to interpret” their own religion, but I am offering a view in how one can be so utterly damaged by the sense of betrayal/abandonment and other “crimes” against one’s beliefs and assumptions about them by endlessly giving power to “half the story” unto their own utter annhilation—which has to be hubris (IMO) against the very immortal soul God gave humans. (My “beliefs” are irrelevant to this “story’s” as it is ART and needs “artifice” to tell it).

And that is shown to me in this story, using beliefs, examining your understanding of them and thus, learning lessons from such mistaken POVs and actions stemming from them that enables actual change and growth: BECOMING. A rather immortal constant of change.

While I do think female persons have the reality of their own bodies to help with transitions, and constant reminders of the cycles of loss for new gains, that rituals often acknowledge, I also think Buffy was very wise in recognizing she had to process her own sense of loss in making transitions—she lost both parents “too soon” to help her, but Giles’ place as the “socializing force” cannot be over exaggerated. However, she isn’t someone who was meant to be shown without “WORTH” even in the loss of hope. And that is because Buffy (used to) claim her strength WITH ANGEL in speaking her mind, claiming her autonomy, even as she “suffered in silence” to spare others ANY pain until she burst like a “boil.”

I believe Giles was also important, not only to Xander, but to Angel, because male transition rituals toward autonomy and acceptance into “the group” also showed that “mercy”— DESPITE one’s wisdom—often was more important than notions of power in old measures of male “purpose” and “place”, both to himself and to the society at large. YOUTH, the warrior are not the only ‘roles’ for an actualized HUMAN BEING.

Giles also learned and changed, and the comics really show “extreme renewal.” (Even to being “himself,’ yet also as a boy testing old rituals and ideas of becoming a man, yet again, with actual “growth” in a changing world. Which is why Giles’ part in guiding Xander’s story with Angel’s story is of special interest to me—as Xander has to actually confront his central fear from damage regarding “parents,” and reprising the ritual of “family formation ending in parenthood” himself; but Angel NEVER has, resulting in the wrong course when becoming a (poor) father himself; and MY proof is that he remains a vampire and “fits” with only the ‘boogity’ who are all ‘monsters,’ repeating the same “family story” that made him, over and over, ad nauseum—and which Buffy actually confronted, but ONLY Angel could choose to understand. So, it is in remaining a vampire. WHICH is why that story between Angel and Xander is of greater interest to me than that of Spike with Angel, I don’t feel “the story” leaves all these characters in “failed ships” or in some inalterable judgment about each other.

Technically, Angel had very little interaction with Spike until he was dragged over to ATS, and then, of course, that was not even the Spike Angelus OR Angel had shared history.

I believe that “Amends” actually addresses Angel’s real problem, that of the “weak man.” His failure is not understanding the lesson of ‘perfect happiness’—that isn’t about his judgment that requires his “iron will” nor even Buffy’s “mercy” to “excuse him,’ but in actually seeing she does see him as self, as worthy of mercy and therefore its EXPRESSION in the love between them: “what about me?” Weakness can be healed, with “rest” or “new understanding” ; to struggle, to get up, to move forward, even to fail again, until the lesson is learned. And the lesson, supported by love, proves “worth” with the mercy to fail; and yet, the free will to choose continuing to learn and to grow; and thus, Angel has been seen and proved “worthy” to Buffy, and he must learn to be “a worthy man,” both to himself and within the world.



SO! Those suspended, epic moments, often without words, are both what describes their romance and yet, is also the “point” of myth. However, unlike so many reviewers, I see that Angel was more than a love interest. He had “contacts” outside of Buffy’s sphere and his behavior didn’t require him to do a single thing differently on ATS, for all the (reviews) claims he “had to leave Buffy when he figured “WHO HE IS.”

HE NEVER DID. PERIOD.

Three families and three Oedipal representations. All failures of learning. Still a vampire, too.

I think the spot light on Angel only showed how static he really is WITHOUT Buffy. Worse, his ability to choose what is right and what is good as * two different things * proved him an UTTER FAILURE because he unrelentingly SHOWS “right” IS NOT GOOD because HE believes he if FATED to be unworthy of redemption. He did nothing to “change he game” in some “finale statement” about continuing to choose to struggle, yet doing the same things he always chooses expecting a different result? Isn’t that NEUROTIC? Yawn….

‘AMENDS’ IS THE CONFLICT! And he did it WITH Buffy. His job of sanctuary for someone to rest to “save themselves” and have the ABILITY of free will to choose the CONSEQUENCE of learning and thus, how to apply wisdom in how to move forward, is what he has to see for himself and Buffy gave him that “lesson.” He only has to choose to accept it: the world to be saved is himself.

(And that means he is loved and given worth and is, thus, redeemable. God said so with giving him his very soul—not to mention the gift of mercy expressed as love he knows to be true. He felt it with Buffy and expressed his own, also with Buffy).

So, for me, even if “fait d’accompli’ that their return is “parallel” universe like other franchises for “legacy” (and in some obvious paradox), the “unseen” but NOT untold resolutions of Xander-Angel and Giles- Angel are important to me, not to mention, one note Willow as “the big gun” never questioned or fired; “epic suspension” of all credibility in “slayer powers” within the nature of “call of to duty” without any questions, or learning, or insistence on autonomy, has to change; and growth just has to be more than the “stasis” of only beating up people, “redeemable” only in death; whose people don’t change anything more than bedrooms, while changing everything else WITH NO CONSEQUENCE, has to change for me to ‘get on board.’ And, a decision has to be made if death itself means “change” without any limitation on the nature of time itself, an actual and important character in the telling of the original tales. “the forever moment” also had a tick tock of night and day “dealing.” NOT just a change of wardrobe that recognized “high heels” and “practical realities of war” are not merely a fashion show. That is why "epicness" in small comforts to face hard stuff was so great to me with "the family" and with Angel, who never was "family"--he is Buffy's independence, in forming her own. Which is why those notions he is 'fatherly' to Buffy fails when she is the one "guiding him" as well.

Joss loves pain, but showing me the reality of human experience requires “balance” and “Good Buffy is Buffy in pain” AIN’T ALL OF IT. It’s lazy and makes her “too stupid to live.” Angel currently has that solved, in that he is already dead. Snerk.

HUGS!
sybil
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cheryl
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Joined: 18 Jul 2010
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2018 9:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You always blow me away with your responses Sybil. The way you view this story is on another level. You see great literature while I see a beautiful story of friendship, loyalty, bravery and love. Very Happy
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comic fan
Oracle


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PostPosted: Wed May 30, 2018 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buffy The Vampire Slayer Star On A Reboot: 'Nobody Wants It'

https://screenrant.com/buffy-vampire-slayer-reboot-clare-kramer/
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