Blood Roses Community Forum Index

"It started with a girl..."


 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Angel Season 1: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> General Show
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
dcai0830
Warrior


Joined: 20 Sep 2017
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lonely Hearts

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

I am not a fan of Lonely Hearts. There are some good Angel bits and I hang on to those desperately for what feels to me a pretty dismal episode of AtS. I am not a fan of when the show/episode tells me the "moral of the story" or hits me over the head with message and this episode does that ad nauseum with the whole "need to make a connection."

2. How do you like the Angel/Doyle/Cordelia team so far?

I like them. Doyle's crush of Cordy is cute. Not much depth to their dynamic yet but I appreciate that they are getting to know each other. Cordy and Doyle more than the trio.

3. What did you think of the introduction to Kate?

I think the only time I enjoy Kate is in Epiphany. Her character doesn't work for me. Part of it is the acting, I'm not sure she fits. How this woman manages not to have chemistry with DB is beyond me (although I guess neither does CC to bee fair). Kate constantly LOOKS like she is acting to me. And generally she just feels like she belongs on Law & Order or NCIS or some cop procedural. I know that is what they were going for in feel for AtS initially but eh... doesn't work for me.

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

Quote:
Kate: “Well, I’ll tell you what: I can go where ever I want and ah, - you can go to hell.”
Angel watches her walk into the bar: “Been there, done that.”


Angel and dry humor or making light of his shitty past is what I live for on AtS.

The last scene is my favorite where Angel is so happy to just sit in the dark. He has a peaceful almost smile on his face... not quite a smile just a peaceful look. And it feels very Angel-like.

5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

The way that Kate is sitting at the bar, she either has extremely bad posture or she has a sever case of scoliosis. Which is interesting because SMG also has scoliosis.

Have I mentioned how gorgeous Angel looks in s1? I have... oh well... I'm saying it again Smile

Scripty Bits (as Grace says!)

Interesting character description/introduction to Kate in script:

Quote:
KATE, mid-20's, lovely, yet somehow a little lost and needy.


There was alot of re-writing in this episode but I'm only pointing out what I found significant much of it was just dialogue re-writes which convey similar things.

I did find this exchange funny which wasn't in the episode but which calls back to Earshot:

Quote:
ANGEL
(nodding, deadpan)
That's funny.

KATE
Yeah, I can see you love to laugh.


This is another cut from the script from the Kate convo at the bar in the first act:

Quote:
KATE
Don't get me wrong. I love my job.
But sometimes I wish I could have
just a little bit of a normal life, you know?

ANGEL
I hear you.


Interesting use of "normal life" maybe the Buffy call back was too on the nose so they cut it?

The "pretty girl" that notices Angel fighting the douchy guys who were giving Doyle and Cordy trouble was supposed to be a girl that was found out she was pregnant, and the guy who got into a fight at the bar was supposed to be her brother. It's a weird conversation.

I'm glad they changed this one up. In the scene where Cordy and Doyle are doing research and she points to a picture of a demon she finds gross it was supposed to be a picture of Doyle's breed of demon.

Quote:
CORDELIA
No, thanks.
(re new picture)
Ew. Check out this one.

INSERT: an artist's illustration of Doyle's breed of demon.

CORDELIA
Could you imagine being touched by that?


I notice the whole "connecting" thing was added into the script after the fact. That is probably why it feels so forced to me.

They cut this line from Angel for his confrontation with Kate:

Quote:
ANGEL
That's what I figured. You're so
isolated and defensive. You wouldn't
know a good guy if you saw him.
Which usually just makes you lonely,
but in this case might get people killed-


During the Touched song, Angel was meant to have voice over regarding the "demon" in question:

Quote:
ANGEL (V.O.)
It keeps searching for some shred of human intimacy
But fails at every turn.
Which only makes it more desperate to make a connection with someone, anyone.
But it never works out.
Somehow things are never quite right.
And it's doomed to live alone, wandering


(In Cordy's words - "over identify much?")

This is a fun tidbit from the actual BuffyWorld transcript which I always wondered about:

Quote:
Cut to Angel walking down the street (it’s awfully bright, but according to Joss comment’s from the posting board it was supposed to be still pre-dawn, some mistake with lighting or post production or something).
(s1 Angel... always hanging out in the sun)

The way this scene was blocked was moe interesting than we got on the scene but Kate smiling is hard to imagine...

Quote:
Angel FIRES the gadget.

ON THE BEAM, as the grappling hook and its cable wrap neatly and securely around the beam.

ANGEL throws Kate a confident grin, then, in preparation for his ascent, he gives the cable a good solid tug.

CRRRRRACKKK! Angel and Kate cower slightly as the beam comes CRASHING down to the floor.

As the dust settles, Angel exchanges a slightly embarrassed look with Kate, who rolls her eyes. She then reaches down to her ankle and comes up with a small revolver. Holding it up, she gives Angel the similar confidant smile.


As most of you reading know the episode Corrupt which involved a plot regarding a hooker in trouble was supposed to be episode two but it was cut because WB thought it was too dark. I wanted to share this bit from the script of Cordy trying to play the part of a prostitute and the girls not believing it....

Quote:
CORDELIA
So, how's tricks, fellow hookers?

STREETWALKER #1
Who or what the hell are you?

CORDELIA
I'm Cookie. You've probably never seen
me before since I usually work in a
different part of town.
(points indiscriminately)
Way, way over there.

STREETWALKER #1
Bitch, if you're living the life, I'm
Julia Roberts.

CORDELIA
Well, hello, Julia. Cause you're
looking at the real deal here, sister.


The Julia Roberts line cracks me up. Ultimately I'm glad this episode didn't air...
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2018 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode?  Lonely Heart is an episode that I really didn't like much the first couple of times I watched it, but it's grown on me a little.

My favorite thing is the way it uses the "blonde girl does the unexpected" trope twice (the same thing BtVS plays off of in Welcome to the Hellmouth.) There's the mislead with the "Sarah, Plain and Tall" blonde woman at the bar leaving with the parasite demon and then becoming the demon. That reminds me of how Darla was unexpectedly the monster in the teaser of WttH. And Kate turns out to be an ass-kicking cop, of course, just like blonde Buffy is the slayer.

I also love/hate the foreshadowing when Cordelia says, "If that was my gift, I'd return it."

Angel and Kate both undercover "interviewing" each other is funny on rewatch. I feel like the issues that will come up later in their relationship are already made clear here.

I think the "high school is over" note is hit too hard, and the STD demon is just gross, though I guess the parallel to Angel's situation kind of works.

Favorite lines/scenes?

"You can go to hell." / "Been there, done that."

"Or, we can go home." / "And you could sit in the dark alone." / "God, yes. Thank you."

Anything stand out on rewatch? 

I feel really bad for that bartender's family and friends!

That excerpt from Corrupt is hilarious, D!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2018 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1x03 In the Dark
Written by Douglas Petrie
Directed by Bruce Seth Green
Original air date: October 19, 1999



1. Overall thoughts on this episode?
2. What did you think of Spike and Oz showing up?
3. Does Marcus totally creep you out?
4. Favorite lines/scenes?
5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

Bonus question: If you could change Angel's explanation for why he's destroying the Gem of Amara, would you? What other reason would you give, or what would you put more emphasis on?

(Also, because I'm curious, has anyone rounded up all the "puppy" references to Angel? This week's crossover eps each have one, plus The Wish...Are there more?)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dcai0830
Warrior


Joined: 20 Sep 2017
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2018 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:
(Also, because I'm curious, has anyone rounded up all the "puppy" references to Angel? This week's crossover eps each have one, plus The Wish...Are there more?)


Quote:
Angel is referred to as a ‘puppy’ on a couple of occasions. In The Wish, vampire Willow keeps Angel locked in a cage as her plaything, and refers to him as “Puppy”. In The Harsh Light of Day, when Parker asks Buffy about the scars on her neck, she replies that they they were caused by an “angry puppy”.
...
Puppies are a recurring theme with Angel - in Bewitched, Bothered And Bewildered, Giles tells Buffy that one Valentine’s Day, Angel nailed a puppy to something (we don’t find out as Buffy stops him before he can finish). In Orpheus, we see that Angel saved a puppy from being killed in early 1920s Chicago.


The above is from http://offline.buffy.de/outlink_en.php?module=/webserver/offline/www.restlessbtvs.com/trivia/episodes/

I was there looking for something else so I wanted to come copy and paste it so I wouldn't forget.

Others:

Spike in Into the Dark looking at Angel: Now I’m just a big, fluffy puppy with bad teeth.

Faith in Enemies: See, when I was a kid I used to beg my mom for a dog. Didn't matter what kind. I just wanted, you know, something to love. (kisses Angel) A dog's all I wanted.

Got that from this website: http://offline.buffy.de/outlink_en.php?module=/webserver/offline/www.restlessbtvs.com/trivia/angel-the-puppy/index.html

They also make the observation that Buffy refers to Riley as a kitten in s5. I don't recall that episode though.

I'll be back with my review and script stuff soon!
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Apr 05, 2018 5:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, D! You're the best!

I'll post my thoughts on the episode tomorrow. Got too distracted tonight!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Fri Apr 06, 2018 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts on this episode? I know I really enjoyed this episode the first time I watched it, but I've liked it less on rewatch. I'm sure part of it is my attitude toward Spike, because I just can't enjoy him as much having seen the whole of both shows.

Also, I really hate watching Angel get tortured.

What did you think of Spike and Oz showing up? Spike's monologue is a classic, though Spike ragging on someone else's use of hair product is...well...

Oz is a welcome addition. I like that he comes back all badass later in the episode when I've kind of forgotten about him.

Does Marcus totally creep you out? YES. So much yes.

Favorite lines/scenes? I love that Angel does sexy tai chi after getting the ring from Buffy. It's their thing.

Oz: Does he have a hat and gun?
Cordelia: Just fangs.

Cordelia: But I doubt very much that the main characters are Betty and Barney Rubble as you so vehemently insisted last night. Also I don't think Oz appreciated being called my little Bamm-Bamm all night.

Angel: She's cuter when she's kicking your ass.

Doyle: But I do promise there will be another one just like it again tomorrow.
Angel: Not for me.
(ARGH with the IWRY parallel...)

Anything stand out on rewatch? It's funny that Bruce Seth Green directed the first and only Seth Green crossover ep.

I've been thinking a lot about Angel's reaction to the Gem of Amara. At first, it seems like he's very overwhelmed and skeptical. He confirms it's from Buffy, like he's waiting for some kind of catch.

And then, we get a little insight into his mindset when he talks to Rachel. I think part of it is Angel already coming to the conclusion that the ring is too easy ("go for the easy fix and wait for the consequences, or take the hard road and go with faith"), but I also think Angel might be worried about Buffy. I think he thinks of himself as the Lenny in this situation -- an abusive/bad boyfriend. (POTN points out the possible parallel with Season 2 of BtVS in his video.)

This, to me, seems like his hope for Buffy in addition to Rachel: "What I'm saying is if you leave Lenny for good, it'll hurt. But eventually, you'll be stronger for it. And maybe you'll find your way to the kind of love you deserve."

I tend to picture Angel, during those in-the-dark brooding sessions, simultaneously comforting and torturing himself by imagining Buffy happy and laughing in the sunshine, you know? He's gotta be convincing himself that Buffy is so much better off without him, and it kind of shatters the illusion for her to make this gesture of love. Given that the Gem of Amara is the Holy Grail for vampires, Mark Field says in his essay on The Harsh Light of Day that the end of that episode shows us that Angel is still Buffy's Holy Grail. I wonder if Angel feels the weight of that, too.

It's an incredible gesture of trust on Buffy's part, given the potential for Angel to lose his soul, so I wonder if he's a bit thrown by that as well. It must be scary for him, in light of how he almost killed her in Graduation Day, to think that Angelus could have this kind of power to use against Buffy if it ever came to that.

Bonus question: If you could change Angel's explanation for why he's destroying the Gem of Amara, would you? I think I would go with the explanation that it's too risky to keep in the event that Angel lost his soul again. He could still keep the part about the ring being too easy and just looking like redemption as well.

This Tim Minear quote makes me wish he had written the episode, but then that's true for most episodes Smile

Quote:
"But in this episode, it makes perfect sense for him to destroy the ring. Can he be trusted? That is the point of the series. If he has the power to be invincible, what would happen if he spent eternity as Angelus? It’s too dangerous. Is there any other vampire in the history of the Jossverse that has a soul? No, so the only person that could possibly wear that ring would be Angel, and Angel knows that he can’t be trusted. Think about Jenny Calendar. In that light, the ending makes perfect sense to me."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Tue Apr 10, 2018 3:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1x04 I Fall to Pieces
Teleplay by David Greenwalt
Story by Joss Whedon and David Greenwalt
Directed by Vern Gillum
Original air date: October 26, 1999



1. Overall thoughts on this episode?
2. How do you feel about Doyle's justification for charging clients who can afford it?
3. Does Dr. Meltzer creep you out?
4. Favorite lines/scenes?
5. Anything stand out on rewatch?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I Fall to Pieces

Overall thoughts on this episode? Ah, "I Fall to Pieces," the episode that shows us that brown-haired women can be Angel's clients, too. Smile

I don't like this episode because it hints at interesting things but fails to come together on any of them, in my view. Angel(us)'s history of stalking comes up, but it's not used to help him catch Meltzer in any real way that I can see. Kate's line about Melissa needing to get her power back is great (and reminds me a lot of Buffy vs. Angelus in Season 2), but the development of that point is undercut at the end because the show needs to put Angel back into the role of hero. And most of the investigation of Meltzer just feels draggy to me.

But I will give the episode points for a very creepy MOTW!

How do you feel about Doyle's justification for charging clients who can afford it? I like it. Making the saving business a transactional relationship instead of inviting hero worship is a good justification. I still don't see Buffy doing it, but her situation is different.

Does Dr. Meltzer creep you out? Seriously, Grace, you had to ask this question? Rolling Eyes

Favorite lines/scenes?

"Maybe I'm a little attracted."

"What is stalking these days, the third most popular sport among men?"
"Fourth, after luge."

Also, I do really like Angel in beige/tan/whatever you call that sweater!

Anything stand out on rewatch?

Angel says, "It's not about Melissa, it's about rage. This guy is too messed up to deal with a real woman and he can't stand that. So he creates a fantasy about a girl he barely knows. But eventually even she fails him. So he has to hurt her, because when he looks at her all he sees is how useless he is, how damaged.."

And then Angel and Cordelia both essentially say that Angel's soulless vamp days give him insight into this way of thinking. But I don't see it. Or, at least, it doesn't line up with my idea of Angelus. I didn't think he was very rage-y or self-hating. He didn't have fantasies of women falling in love with him; he wanted to break them. He stalked them because he was soulless and got off on mental and emotional torture. He thought it was fun; it was art to him. He only got upset when he was unable to break Buffy. But she was an exception. An exception so great it made him want to end the world.

Also, Cordelia watches public television? Interesting...

Did anyone else think maybe the bit with the plant at the end was a nod to Angel giving up the Gem of Amara? Angel says he hopes the plant doesn't need light and Melissa says she thinks it'll be OK. So Angel, even without the Gem of Amara, is getting as much light as he needs to keep going.

Just me? Smile

I also thought it would have been awesome if Kate's line about Melissa needing to get her power back would have led to Angel starting self-defense classes for women. I need a Season 1 AU, please!

Since I've been including Tim Minear's thoughts on some of these, I'll throw in his quote for this one (he was not the writer):

Quote:
`As an early episode,` Minear explains, `you can see where we thought the show was originally going to go, which was in the direction of an anthology with the client of the week, and the emotional stakes would be with the guest character. Sort of like THE FUGITIVE. I think it’s a perfectly workmanlike episode with some really cool things in it, but I also think that since then we’ve moved away from that kind of story. We have decided that the emotional action is with our people. You can have an interesting plot and an interesting client, but it’s difficult to create sympathy for someone you’re introducing for one episode.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
dcai0830
Warrior


Joined: 20 Sep 2017
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m slacking sorry - I’ll catch up this weekend! Scripts bits and all.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
dcai0830
Warrior


Joined: 20 Sep 2017
Posts: 179

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 4:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the Dark

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

I always think this episode is called "Into" the dark. Anyway, I like the way they pair up these two buffyverse episodes, Harsh Light of Day and In the Dark. I've been trying to think about what these episodes have in common. I'm not sure if they have anything in common at all except (and maybe this is just my bangel goggles on here but hey if I'm going to let my bangel flag fly why not here right?) -

The Parker fiasco was about Buffy trying to prove to herself that she was over Angel. I remember reading somewhere that SMG felt that Buffy "wouldn't do that" because she had just broken up with Angel. I kinda disagree with her. What better way for Buffy to show herself that she had moved on than to take such a big step with this guy (sleeping with him). But in truth Angel and her past relationship is something that is ever present and it haunts her and when she ends her episode asking Oz to take the ring to Angel, it feels a little to me like she is acknowledging that he still occupies her heart (and that their relationship is something she is still dealing with). She has to face that harsh reality.

I think of what Cordelia says when Oz gives the ring over to Angel, she says (paraphrasing) is she brooding like...(implying Angel). So while Buffy was trying to being avoidy about how she feels about Angel, Angel, on the other hand, is a bit consumed by the whole thing (which given Angel's borderline obsessive behavior is pretty much expected). Angel is "in the dark" about the relationship. The ring throws him a bit (for reasons outside of their relationship which are discussed). But to pretend that the ring would mean nothing to their relationship is I think a bit naive. Sure he still can't give her children and sure he is still cursed but he could walk in the sun with her, give her picnics. It would be on less hurdle for them. He choses to destroy the ring. He choses "the hard path" for many reasons that have nothing to do with Buffy but also, I can't shake the thought that there is at least a small part of him that thinks that having the ring, having the ability to share they day and sunshine with Buffy would be a temptation that he doesn't feel he can handle. Buffy remains in the light for him and he makes a decision to stay, in the dark.

2. What did you think of Spike and Oz showing up?

Spike: I love evil Spike. Like Grace says, his overall character is less enjoyable because of where I know it goes and all of my feelings for Spike in the later seasons but I do try to remember how much I used to enjoy Spike and this is the stuff I loved. I love his monologue on the rooftop. It cracks me up.

Oz: I'll take as much Oz as I can get in general but honestly, I LOVED Oz with the AtS crew. I really think that Oz would've been great for some additional guest appearances. He has a very quiet chillness to him that fits well with AtS and Angels character in general. As Willow says, "I too know the love of a taciturn man." I don't think Oz would've made a great full time cast member as I think that kinda of "laconic" speech would get old but he would've been fun to have back around. I think he would've fit nicely in s3 or s5.

3. Does Marcus totally creep you out?
Yes. But also - he kinda looks like Dr. Greene from ER, it's not. But he looks like him.

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

"Because you're "Angel - vamp detective" now? Ooooh. I'm scared. What's next, huh? Vampire cowboy? Vampire fireman! Ah...Vampire Ballerina."

"Are you gonna torture me or just bore me to death?" Seriously, only Angel would be be so non-chalant about what is about to happen. After all as Angelus he inflicted torure like those upon many a person so he knows what he is in store for. It's such dark humor and the line seems to carry so much weight. It's a good line.

"Why do you keep playin that bleedin' Brahams?"
"Actually it's Mozart. Symphony forty-one"
Only Spike would confuse Mozart with Brahms... they aren't even comtemporaries, and its not even the same era. It's clearly a classical piece not romantic. I would've forgiven Spike if he confused it with Haydn at least he is a contemmporary/classical composer. Anyway - this is the kinda thing Angel would know and Spike wouldn't Smile
*steps off pretentious soap box*

I will forever and always love:
"She's cuter when she's kicking your ass."
Because I feel like Angel thinks that Buffy is a bad ass. And I love that he is being tortured but he still manages to stand up for Buffy here. Does this even fit the narrative of this episode as Grace has discussed above? Angel wanting to think of Buffy as strong, capable and doing perfectly well without him.

Spike: "Cordelia, love the hair."
Cordelia" "Wish I could say the same to you."

Oz busting in with his van with not one but TWO crossbows. "Spike." (Me: Kill him Oz end it!!)

Angel looking at the sun. DB does such a good job in this scene. He kinda does look like a child very innocent. I hate to taint this scene with the icky stuff that Marcus says but I think the point is to see Angel as having childlike wonderment here. And then to see him give that up. Sad

ANGEL; I don't know about you, but I had a nice day...You know, except for the bulk of it where I
was nearly tortured to death.

5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

The Spike/Angel as fighters thing is always a bit confusing. Sometimes Angel/Angelus is showed to be far superior/stronger and sometimes when the plot requires it, Angel appears to feel that Spike is a match. In School Hard, Angel appears to think Spike is very dangerous (but that seems more like he thinks Spike is relentless), here Spike and Angel fight and are pretty evenly matched. In ats s5, Spike beats Angel up and he is shocked by it but then in flashbacks Angel is shown to be disciplining Spike and Spike is shown to back down to Angelus. And also Puppet Angel beats up Spike.... I think it's one of those "whatever the plot deems necessary" things.

Quote:
And then, we get a little insight into his mindset when he talks to Rachel. I think part of it is Angel already coming to the conclusion that the ring is too easy ("go for the easy fix and wait for the consequences, or take the hard road and go with faith"), but I also think Angel might be worried about Buffy. I think he thinks of himself as the Lenny in this situation -- an abusive/bad boyfriend. (POTN points out the possible parallel with Season 2 of BtVS in his video.)

This, to me, seems like his hope for Buffy in addition to Rachel: "What I'm saying is if you leave Lenny for good, it'll hurt. But eventually, you'll be stronger for it. And maybe you'll find your way to the kind of love you deserve."


Sorry that I don't know how to quote users without quoting the whole message maybe you can show me later Grace. In any case, this analysis fits so well and it also makes me sad to think that Angel thinks so low of himself. But at the same time, his demon did bring a whole world of hurt to Buffy and he was there to fit that metaphor. It's just that the soul canon thing complicates it. And when you look at what the script originally said "I had a relationship once." It seems to work.

"She's cute when she's hurting, isn't she?" = I cannot help but see this line as some major foreshadowing for season 6. But I'm pretty sure that was a long way off from any writer's intent.... right?

There is also something to be said for what Marcus says to Angel about light, I feel like it relates to the ring and to Buffy but I need to think on it a bit:

Quote:
... we're different, though, aren't we?
We hate the light of day and it hates
us back in kind...
... you hid the ring, Angel, you could be
walking in the light right now... so I
have to wonder, what do you want if not
the ring?
It's through the pain that we find the truth
of who we are... It strips us of our defenses
- we are made innocent again, like children.


(I'll leave out the disgusting bit about how he likes children)

Here is a question: Why do you think the opted not to show Spike actually doing something with the pliers? Instead they cut away and only hear Angel's scream. Is it because Spike is a full cast member of BtVS and they don't want to show a cast member inflict torture on Angel? Would it make people dislike Spike more? Is it better that it is just implied that Spike is an evil and vicious vampire but never shown?

I can't tell you how many conversations I have had on boards where they discuss how Spike "isn't that evil" or "not as evil as Angelus." I always think that Spike's evil is "different" but he is clearly enjoying himself at watching Angel being tortured. He wants the ring and he is impatient about it but he has outsourced the job to the sickest vampire there is and then he decides he wants in on the fun (who knows what he does with those pliers... :/). I always find it humorous how people seem to forget that Spike was very simply - evil.

Bonus question: If you could change Angel's explanation for why he's destroying the Gem of Amara, would you?

I don't think Doug Petrie did a good job with the writing in this scene. I don’t mind the explanation he gives about not belonging with those people in the day. I like that. It fits with why he left Buffy, why he feels he isn’t done atoning (or maybe he never will), it fits looking around at those people on the beach and realizing that maybe he isn’t worthy of that - maybe not yet - not until he gets forgiveness. I like the idea that he belongs with those who are lost and disenfranchised, the ones who are forgotten at night. But I don’t like the way the scene is written. (It also seems like a slight dig at LAPD’s night shift lol).

I also would’ve liked Angel to acknowledge the potential of Angelus getting his hand on the ring and the danger. I think I could’ve dug that but it doesn’t fit with the theme nearly as much as “I don’t deserve it.” And after having torture inflicted upon him, torture that he likely inflicted many times over on many innocent people including Giles, Angel is reminded of the evil he did and that he doesn’t belong in the light. Not yet. Maybe not ever. Sad

Weird side note. I really like DB’s hands.

Script Stuff:

Something I found funny in the script is when they cut to Angel doing his Tai Chi the script says:

Angel, down below, is in the middle of tae kwon-do exercises. The phone rings. He picks it up.

Tai Chi = Chinese
Tae Kwon-Do = Korean
::shaking my head::

The scene between Angel and Rachel had a much stronger parallel to Buffy. I wonder if they were concerned with painting Buffy’s relationship with Angel so poorly and fan reaction to it? The following dialogue was cut:

Quote:
RACHEL
Half the time, you know how this
whole thing gets started up again?
Lenny and me?

ANGEL
You call him.
(off her look)
I had a relationship once.

RACHEL
So you know... I start to jones for him
the way he joneses for rock.


RACHEL
I'm scared, Angel. More scared of me
than him right now. Those good times
with Lenny? That's the only light I've
known my whole damn life. You tell
me I can never have it again? I'm not
sure why I should want to live anyway.

ANGEL
Because it's a lie. When you call Lenny -
he always ends up hurting you. And that's
not real love.

RACHEL
Closest thing I've got so far.


(ETA: Wait a second, maybe Angel is Rachel here too right? Buffy is the only light he ever knew but the harder path is the path without her. But alot of the rest doesn't fit. Certainly not the part about it not being real love.)

The script called for a scar over Angel’s heart where Buffy stabbed him:

Quote:
MARCUS
Over two hundred years of living and
so little external damage...

Marcus places his hand near Angel's heart (and the scar from Buffy stabbing him).


This bit was cut too and I wish they had left it in because again it really shows that although this is horrible for Angel, he is also not a rookie, he went through a hundred years in hell….

Quote:
MARCUS
What do you want, Angel?

ANGEL
Well... still hoping for you to invest in some
breath mints, Marky, and you know, I spent
a little time in hell: bringing out the hot poker
first thing, pretty amateur if you ask me.

Marcus stares at Angel blankly for a beat, turns to Spike and just as blankly says.

MARCUS
I really like him.


Script direction when Spike tells Angel about Parker:
Quote:
Spike: Good looking fellow. Used her shamelessly.

Angel can't quite hide the hurt in his eyes.


The blocking in the scene with Spike, Doyle and Cordy in Angel’s apartment was supposed to be blocked differently. It had Cordy shooting the crossbow at Spike and Spike “GRABS THE DAMN ARROW in mid-air” there is a dust up and Spike ended up with his hand around Cordy’s neck and the arrow directed at her neck while he continued to tell them to find his ring or Angel would die.

I prefer Cordy looking like a badass and Spike not looking a cool Smile

Twice the script says Angel and Marcus interact “like lovers” once its when Marcus is talking to Angel while he is torturing him and once when they hit the water they are “entwined like lovers.” I don’t know I didn’t get any of that from what I saw. Did you all?

The very last line from Angel to Doyle “how is your mom anyway?” is not in the script. I wonder if DB improvised that. It kinda sounds like a DB thing to say actually. Who knows!

Man this was a long post I'm tired!! Smile I'll be back tomorrow with I Fall to Pieces!
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
Buffy remains in the light for him and he makes a decision to stay, in the dark.


I think it was POTN who made the point that you could also swap the titles of the episodes and they would make just as much sense. Buffy ends her episode in the dark, confused and upset about what went wrong with Parker (and still not over Angel), and Angel ends his episode having seen the harsh light of day, and having gained a reaffirmation of his purpose and what he is really working for (forgiveness -- even if that's not really possible, he wants to try to make up for some of the damage he did, on his own terms).

dcai0830 wrote:
Here is a question: Why do you think the opted not to show Spike actually doing something with the pliers?


I don't know, but I'm glad they didn't show any more torture! I can't take Angel-torture. (But I do agree that people get pretty delusional about Spike's evil. This episode is always an "exception" because he really hates Angel, so that makes it OK to torture him, but otherwise Spike is a perfectly honorable fighter, except in all the other instances we need to make excuses for.)

dcai0830 wrote:
(ETA: Wait a second, maybe Angel is Rachel here too right? Buffy is the only light he ever knew but the harder path is the path without her. But alot of the rest doesn't fit. Certainly not the part about it not being real love.)


I considered this, too, but it's much harder for me to see Angel painting Buffy as bad for him or that Angel would think he can find his way to the love he deserves through leaving Buffy for good. And I don't think that's just my B/A bias, given what happens in IWRY. But I could see a reading of the scene and the cut lines where the ring is still the thing Angel is talking about ("that's not real love" = "that's not real redemption"? "the kind of love you deserve" = "the kind of forgiveness you deserve," as in the real thing, not just the illusion that the ring offers?).

dcai0830 wrote:
Twice the script says Angel and Marcus interact “like lovers” once its when Marcus is talking to Angel while he is torturing him and once when they hit the water they are “entwined like lovers.” I don’t know I didn’t get any of that from what I saw. Did you all?


I mean, there was an intimate vibe to Marcus' questioning. But not really with the fight near the end.

dcai0830 wrote:
Sorry that I don't know how to quote users without quoting the whole message maybe you can show me later Grace.


All I do is copy/paste the part I want to quote, put in quote tags, and then change the opening tag so it says [quote="username"]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2018 3:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1x05 Rm w/a Vu
Teleplay by Jane Espenson
Story by Jane Espenson and David Greenwalt
Directed by Scott McGinnis



1. Overall thoughts on this episode?
2. What do you think of Angel's developing friendships with Doyle and Cordelia?
3. What's your opinion of the infamous "whiny little cry-Buffy" line?
4. Favorite lines/scenes?
5. Anything stand out on rewatch?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rm w/a Vu

Overall thoughts on this episode? I feel like I should like it, but I don't. Cordelia is just not likable enough yet for me, and I'm not really on board with the episode's seeming endorsement of Cordelia's brand of bitchy. Self-confidence is good, but the fact that she has to put Buffy down to feel good about herself is eye-rollingly typical of her. It just makes me want to get to later-season Cordelia faster.

Angel is really super hot in it, though, so it does have its merits. Plus, there's Phantom Dennis!

What do you think of Angel's developing friendships with Doyle and Cordelia? I do enjoy that the episode starts to tease out how Doyle and Cordelia might relate to Angel's journey. Cordelia's fear that she's being punished for being mean in high school makes her more relatable to Angel (even if she doesn't really want to change her behavior much yet). And we get more hints that Doyle has something to regret in his own past. Nothing like a three-way redemption quest!

What's your opinion of the infamous "whiny little cry-Buffy" line? HATE it. Drives me crazy.

Favorite lines/scenes?

Any scene in which Angel is not wearing a shirt...?

"It was like the Soviet secret police if they cared a lot about shoes."

"Pop stars and popes, those are the one-name guys."

Anything stand out on rewatch? Would Angel really know who Aura is? Really? (Also, I just learned that the actress who played Aura in WttH also plays Aggie, Lorne's psychic friend.)

Angel listening to the Ode to Something He Cannot Have gets me every time.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jamlin
Warrior


Joined: 04 Feb 2018
Posts: 13
Location: Canada

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay so obviously I am not at this point in my rewatch, but here's something I thought of: neither Buffy nor Angel deal well with roommates Razz

(Also, I thought of an idea for a fanvid last night and I'd like to discuss it at some point for ideas but I'm not sure where I'd post that thread?)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Grace Newman
Dark Avenger


Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 455
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jamlin wrote:
Okay so obviously I am not at this point in my rewatch, but here's something I thought of: neither Buffy nor Angel deal well with roommates Razz


True! Though, in their defense, they have pretty bad luck with their roommates. I have never lived with someone who tried to suck out my soul or cut up my linoleum for kicks! Laughing

jamlin wrote:
(Also, I thought of an idea for a fanvid last night and I'd like to discuss it at some point for ideas but I'm not sure where I'd post that thread?)


Sounds like fun! I think the Graphics and Art section?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> General Show All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
Page 2 of 5

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group