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Buffy S12 The Reckoning # 1 Issue Discussion Thread
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Angel and Illyria = THE BIGGEST PLOT DEVICE

I have shared this with Mylie and Grace on Tumblr but I wanted to post some more about it here.

To me, at this point, it is abundantly clear that Angel and Illyria had to be put together because Joss had plans to break Spike and Buffy up in 12.

Here is how I see it. The A11 writer was given some points she needed to hit. Christos talked about how Illangel was discussed at the writer's summit so it ws brought up by Joss. It seems pretty obvious that CB was told, get Angel and Illyria together and now that I see what Joss had in mind for 12 I feel very strongly that the reason is because if he is going to break Spuffy up and bring Angel back into the fold then Angel needs to be unavailable for Some Reason. Enter Angel and Illyria's "relationship."

Now I need to read the damn issue. I have so many opinions for someone who hasn't even seen the book but, if you think about it, here is Buffy single for the first time in years. Angel assumes she and Spike are together and is corrected on that issue but now he happens to be in a relationship with Illyria. Obviously you can't have Buffy and Angel working alongside each other single - FOR SHAME. What would they do then? Talk about their feelings? No no. Can't have that.

Anyway, I'm a little bitter at the fact that Angel is basically in a relationship with Illyria because it was a necessity to give us yet another reason that Buffy and Angel can't deal with their feelings/relationship etc. Stop giving us external obstacles. Let's see what happens if they have no barriers. What then?
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Comic Fan wrote:
2)It was confirmed that Buffy learned about Connor at some point off-screen.


Wait, I think I missed this Comic, where do we see this?
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
Comic Fan wrote:
2)It was confirmed that Buffy learned about Connor at some point off-screen.


Wait, I think I missed this Comic, where do we see this?


It was in a interview I believe or one of the Slayalive Q/As.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 20, 2018 10:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wanted to share my thoughts on the issue as a whole here (I will copy and paste what I wrote on BB):

Quote:
I think the biggest enemy, the enemy we all knew was going to be a problem this season, is time. We have SO much ground to cover and not enough time to do it. I think my biggest complaint about this issue is there is way too much going on, it is too jam-packed and fast-paced. I hope that alot of this is just the fact that there was need for exposition and set up and now that we are off on our adventure things will come at a decent pace but given what needs to be accomplished I think it will be a tough feat.

I haven't really been "happy" with the BTVS comics, well really ever, but I certainly haven't thought they were expertly written since some of s8. I went back to read some of s10 in anticipation of 12 coming out and I was reminded of the lack of dimensionality in much of the writing. I think Christos' best work was in Angel and Faith season 9. I am one of those rare creatures on this board that still really likes Joss (I am not talking about Joss as a person I am not here to get into that I'm just talking about his skills as a writer) Even when I kick and scream and disagree with him on things coughSeason7coughTwilightcough I can see where he is coming from and I typically enjoy his story telling (no it's not perfect). I do see some Jossy things in this issue which I really enjoyed and those include:

(1) Call back to the TV show moments (lots of these actually).
(2) Buffy's talk with Willow (I want to talk a little more about this one later because I think this is the crux of this entire season) especially this sharp cut:
"I need to take some Buffy time, and it is nice to be able to do that, without relationship stuff complicating things"
(Door Bell = Angel)
(3) The switch about Buffy thinking she is taking the battle to Harth when in reality Harth had anticipated this move. I just find Harth such an interesting villain the likes of what we haven't seen since The Mayor or Angelus.

I enjoyed the plot development and I'm immediately excited about the future and how it will play out.

Here is what I didn't like:

The art was tough. I honestly didn't mind Jeanty in s8 so I'm not sure why I'm having trouble adjusting to him again. Maybe I got used to RI as well and her style is so clear. I am not sure what some of the facial expressions are trying to convey. For example in this panel:



What is going on with Buffy here? Is she jealous? Is she concerned about the scattered upon the temporal winds to exist forever in untold agony? Is she having a minor stroke? I... just don't know.

I like that Faith faces off against the Mayor but, hot damn, this should've been a whole issue in and of itself. This is a BFD for Faith and the fact that it comes and goes in just a few panels is unfortunate. I am also not sure about the dialogue here. That Faith, after all her time and self-realization and journeys, would say "You made me a murderer." Didn't ring true to me.

The Angel/Illyria stuff. Hmmm where have I seen this type of dynamic before?



Illyria is offering Angel up to Buffy for hair products. I am not sure what I'm supposed to make of this supposed relationship. It's a mix between Illyria and Spike's dynamic in AtS s5/AtF and also a little bit Xander/Anyaish. Is it just sex? Angel seems mortified when Illyria talks about them being lovers. They do appear to have at least admiration and respect for each other given their interactions but I'm not thinking this is the new great love of Angel's life. And this leads me to a very important question.

WHERE THE F**K is Fred????? Again, too much to do too little time. We needed 8 issues AT LEAST.

Generally, I think most of the writing/dialogue in this issue is no better or worse than s10/11. Again, I have low standards for the comics so this is not a vast improvement or a step back IMO.

On fandom reaction: What really irks me is this sentimentality that Buffy and Spike breaking up is somehow a regression in Buffy's character. Buffy is NOT just Spike's girlfriend. Just like she is NOT just Angel's love etc. She is also a sister, slayer, now an aunt, friend, a 30 year old woman trying to figure out her life and her future and what she wants etc. If she and Spike have come to a decision about their relationship not working, that in and of itself, is not a regression of her character. It could even be perceived as growth and self-realization. And here is where I would like to talk a little more about Buffy and Willow's speech:

This is the best part of this issue for me because I think it sets out what we are going to accomplish this season and it's something I have always kind of wondered. Let's go back to the cookie speech (yes... let's do it.. come with me):

Quote:
BUFFY Because—OK, I'm cookie dough. I'm not done baking. I'm not finished becoming whoever the hell it is I'm gonna turn out to be. I make it through this, and the next thing, and the next thing, and maybe one day I turn around and realize I'm ready. I'm cookies. And then, you know, if I want someone to eat— (eyes go wide as she catches herself) or enjoy warm, delicious cookie me, then...that's fine. That'll be then. When I'm done.
ANGEL Any thoughts on who might enjoy— Do I have to go with the cookie analogy?
BUFFY I'm not really thinking that far ahead. That's kind of the point.


And to me it feels like all of the comics have been about Buffy making it through this and the next thing and the next thing. She wasn't really thinking that far ahead. Until things calmed down this past year and then she had to. It's kind of like going to high school, then college, then grad school. You are just thinking of being in the moment and making it from one assignment, test, presentation to the next and then you are done and you realize - oh crap now I have to figure out my life. What I want for my future. And that's when you really think about what and who fits that scenario. This seems like a logical progression for me in Buffy's storyline.



What Buffy is saying to Willow here isn't JUST about her friend's relationships. She is talking about how Dawn and Xander have a house and Willow has the Center and this has less to do with their romantic lives and more to do with their overall life choices. I kinda love this conversation because I just had a similar one with my little sister who graduated college. I told her, the secret to adulting is that we still don't have all of the answers. And that's kinda what Willow is saying. And Willow says Buffy is in a "good place" which also calls back to the resolution she had in s11 and what Christos said in his Q/A which was that Buffy getting to the point where she can love and be loved is a positive step in her life.

Who knows where the issues will lead. (It could all lead back to Spuffy.) Of course, my dream come true is for Buffy to have some self-actualization that would lead her to want to try her hand at a relationship with Angel but it doesn't look like I'm getting that either. But if this journey is going to be about Buffy, without A Vampire Boyfriend. I'm super here for that. I'm excited about where it could lead.

TL;DR: The issue was a bit rushed and crowded, but I saw some Jossy elements. I don't think a Spuffy break up is a bad writing decision. I'm interested in seeing what Buffy decides her future should be.


Ok but the crazy thing is I have MORE to say. Because I'm over thinking this ... but putting on my shipper goggles for a sec because I can do that here I was thinking about how this season is all about "the future." And just calling back to Jam's video and this gif set:

http://mrsgordo84.tumblr.com/post/175084593056/thefibber-we-both-have-our-lives-but

I feel like this is a natural progression and evolution of Buffy thinking about her future in more concrete ways. Now, I'll admit this could spell THE END in a very final way to Buffy/Angel.

The progression could be:
When she was young Buffy ONLY thought of a future with Angel.
At the end of the show, she SOMETIMES thought of a future with Angel.
And now, as we reach the end of her story she NEVER thinks of Angel.

BUT - it could also mean that she finds she still sometimes thinks of a future with Angel - but to me that only works if Angel becomes human (is that even possible?) If he shanshued, if this was the battle where he finally gained his humanity could this whole thing end with her saying - "I do, sometimes, think that far ahead. And it doesn't seem like years anymore." And so it's not a FULL on reunion but if she acknowledges that she still thinks of him and if she is looking towards her future I think it works. And I think all of this future talk is MUCH more linked to Angel than it has EVER been linked to Spike. See also s8 when Buffy tells Angel that not only is he the love of her life but the guy she wants to spend it with.

I also want to address the arguments being made "elsewhere" that Buffy breaking up with Spike is regression. The truth is, that Buffy and Spike NEVER deal with their future. They only exist IN THE PRESENT.

Take for instance s10 #28, take a look at Buffy TALKING AT SPIKE. She acknowledges that they have problems, but she wants to try things out because they should "face their fears" and the entire time they are having this conversation they are running around trying to get to the bottom of the D'Hoffryn situation. And Buffy says "I'm not saying we should get married either." This is Buffy talking about the here and now. She wants Spike at her side, at that moment. She acknowledges there are issues they have to face. And Spike covers all of those issues. None of which are EVER addressed:



Let me tell you what I have NEVER heard from Buffy in the comics with regards to Spike (correct me if I am wrong.) I have never heard her say to Spike, "You are it for me." or "This is forever." or "I'm in this for the long haul." or anything of that sort. Buffy never promises Spike forever. She just tells him she wants them to confront their fears and fight for their relationship (nevermind that the entire conversation in #28 is completely ridiculous and makes absolutely no sense when you are actually looking at canon - wherein actually Buffy has never run away from a relationship....ever. In fact, she is rather clingy.)

Spuffy was never marketed as a Forever thing. Sure 99.7% of what is left of the fandom feels very strongly about the fact that this is endgame but the writers made no such promises.
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 21, 2018 10:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.cbr.com/buffy-the-vampire-slayer-season-12-1-review/

Buffy The Vampire Slayer Season 12 #1 Raises the Stakes

by Alex Spencer



So here we are, at the twelfth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the past five of which have been part of Dark Horse Comics’ comic book revival. At this point, Sunnydale’s scoobies have had about as many adventures on the comics page as they have a TV screen — but the original show remains the benchmark for judging every new story.

If the comics don’t feel like “proper” Buffy — like they could have been an episode of the show, with the familiar actors filling these roles — then your brain starts to question the line between canonical continuations and unofficial fanfic. And, friend, nothing gets in the way of enjoying a story quite like cognitive dissonance.

The names on the cover should go some way to putting those concerns to rest. This issue marks series creator Joss Whedon’s return to the Buffy comics, following a few years where he was apparently busy making movies about folks in costumes. He’s credited with co-writing the story, but the majority of the heavy lifting is being done by Christos Gage, who has written the past two “seasons.” They’re joined by penciller Georges Jeanty, who has drawn more issues of the revived Buffy than any other artist.

Unsurprisingly, Gage has an undeniably good grasp on the characters’ voices. In particular, he writes a great Giles — I was delighted to find Anthony Stewart Head’s voice reading out the speech balloons in my mind — but every character sounds like themselves.

Jeanty’s likenesses are a little more wonky. In individual close-ups, most familiar faces are recognizable, but in any panel which multiple characters share, you might have to do a bit of guesswork based on hair, clothing or — in the case of Xander — eyepatch. His Dawn in particular requires a process of elimination to identify.

This is perhaps inevitable, given Jeanty is drawing these characters half a decade after they left our TV screens. Dawn is no longer a bratty teenager, she’s old enough to be someone’s mother. Literally, as it turns out



So here we are, at the twelfth season of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, the past five of which have been part of Dark Horse Comics’ comic book revival. At this point, Sunnydale’s scoobies have had about as many adventures on the comics page as they have a TV screen — but the original show remains the benchmark for judging every new story.

If the comics don’t feel like “proper” Buffy — like they could have been an episode of the show, with the familiar actors filling these roles — then your brain starts to question the line between canonical continuations and unofficial fanfic. And, friend, nothing gets in the way of enjoying a story quite like cognitive dissonance.

The names on the cover should go some way to putting those concerns to rest. This issue marks series creator Joss Whedon’s return to the Buffy comics, following a few years where he was apparently busy making movies about folks in costumes. He’s credited with co-writing the story, but the majority of the heavy lifting is being done by Christos Gage, who has written the past two “seasons.” They’re joined by penciller Georges Jeanty, who has drawn more issues of the revived Buffy than any other artist.

Unsurprisingly, Gage has an undeniably good grasp on the characters’ voices. In particular, he writes a great Giles — I was delighted to find Anthony Stewart Head’s voice reading out the speech balloons in my mind — but every character sounds like themselves.

Jeanty’s likenesses are a little more wonky. In individual close-ups, most familiar faces are recognizable, but in any panel which multiple characters share, you might have to do a bit of guesswork based on hair, clothing or — in the case of Xander — eyepatch. His Dawn in particular requires a process of elimination to identify.

This is perhaps inevitable, given Jeanty is drawing these characters half a decade after they left our TV screens. Dawn is no longer a bratty teenager, she’s old enough to be someone’s mother. Literally, as it turns out.

The meat of Buffy The Vampire Slayer Season 12: The Reckoning #1 picks up with the Scooby Gang a year after the last season, and we see how their lives have moved on — which also doubles as a handy catch-up for anyone who hasn’t kept up with the comics. (Skip the next paragraph if you’d prefer to be unspoiled.)

Buffy and Spike have broken up, Angel and Illyria are a couple. Giles was dead, then he was a teenager, but now he’s back to his normal role as the group’s elder stakesman. Everyone lives in San Francisco now. And Dawn and Xander, who have been together for a few seasons now, have a baby girl. However long it’s been, I still can’t quite get the “ew” of that last relationship out of my hair. Xander was Dawn’s first crush, before she was even in high school. Seeing him as a 30-year-old man ogling her pregnancy boobs doesn’t feel too far out of character, but it does kind of make me want to shower afterwards.

Whatever I personally make of these pairings, however, putting them front and center does feel appropriately Buffy. The issue manages to summon that lovely televisual feeling of catching up with old friends, with its scenes of old friends catching up at a housewarming party. But, with just four issues in this season, that can’t last too long.

Which brings us to what promises to be the overarching plot of Season 12 — the end of the Slayer line. The Reckoning, which gives this season its title, is something that was first teased in Fray, a 2001 comic where Whedon fast-forwarded to the future of the Buffyverse, and now we’ll finally see how it came to pass.

It’s not the first time these two worlds have crossed over, but by making it the focus, Whedon and Gage are making it clear that Season 12 is as rooted in the Fray comics as much as it is the Buffy TV series. It also feels like an attempt to ratchet up the stakes — pun, unfortunately, intended — to apocalyptic levels.

That was never Buffy’s strong suit. Finding the right Big Bad has always been a problem for the series’ comics incarnation, and even the TV show struggled when it focused too much on a single central threat. With only four issues, there’s no room for standalone stories, which were always such a huge part of Buffy’s charm.

The decision to dismiss serialized storytelling in favor of a single climactic blockbuster doesn’t take advantage of comics’ similarities to television. More importantly, it doesn’t feel like Buffy. Even if you can accept these characters as the same ones you remember from — oh god, seriously? — 20 years ago, it feels like they’ve been dumped into an alternate reality. On the plus side, that does allow me to erase those bits that gross me out from my own mental canon..


Editor's Note Comics asked Christos Gage about the return of The Mayor.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Christosgage/status/1009897614530076672?p=v

Editor's Note Comics
@EdsNoteComics

@Christosgage I love that my personal favorite Buffy villain is back. How does it work with Season 7 if The First can only take the form of the dead? I'll go with he died for a second, but is there a different explanation?

1:25 PM - 21 Jun 2018

Christos Gage Christos Gage
@Christosgage
2h

Replying to @EdsNoteComics

His human form died
.


A spuffy fan tweeted and Gage replied

https://mobile.twitter.com/Christosgage/status/1009918478755622914?p=v.

Michael
@Voldemorgoth

@Christosgage as much as I absolutely love the story and your (and Joss obviously) writing and voices for the characters on Buffy S12 so far, I have to admit after all the years of build up & the wonderful S11 ending I feel devastated. This moment feels so invain & pointless now pic.twitter.com/bZvmQzjGvH

2:47 PM - 21 Jun 2018

Christos Gage
@Christosgage Replying to @Voldemorgoth

Totally understand. When the series is over, I'll talk more about the decision making.

2:58 PM - 21 Jun 2018

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Mylie
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 22, 2018 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to say that I really enjoy all your thoughts on the comics dcai and I agree with your reading of Spuffy's relationship (unsurprisingly I guess).

Thanks comic fan for all the updates/info on the comics! This season is so exciting, with it being the last!
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sybil
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AGree, the split in time going into Frayville.

Glad on Dawn/Xander child.

You do understand that Angel and Illyria have been bouncing around between these time splits, so AGAIN, THEY NEVER HAPPENED. It was that weird 'spiritual threesome' of 'that was interesting.' and it is Illyria making the declaration, NOT Angel, so what are youse guys all upset about?

No Spuffy? Geez! Angel and Buffy, side by side is EXACTLY how it is supposed to go down; and which ever time line "disappears" only makes for the tragedy if you want to see it that way as in HAPPILY EVER...after!

We will all see!
Don't crack NOW, geez all this BS for so long!

Hang in there, Joss ALWAYS disappoints,(me for finales), but "the story" already has been shown to have "the out" .

I believe each of these characters finds the others, but in different roles for their lessons--the multi-verse;
And B/A is the constant of true love that makes the center of the wheel turn. ( I mean for the comics world. I think they alluded to it in 'body switches" and Fredness in Illyria, etc. Maybe they are actually posing a multiverse verse approach,

But I prefer "super symmetry" and I mean THAT for real; that is why B/A will always "make sense" in the freaky world of life.

HUGS!
sybil
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sybil
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 29, 2018 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BUFFY
I know. And that's why you can't see this for what it really is. Willow was different. She's a human. Anya's a demon.

XANDER
And you're the slayer. I see now how it's all very simple.

BUFFY
It is never simple.

XANDER
(stands) No, of course not. You know, if there's a mass-murdering demon that you're, oh, say, boning, then it's all gray area.

BUFFY
Spike was harmless. He was helping.

XANDER
He had no choice.

BUFFY
And Anya did! She chose to become a demon. Twice.

XANDER
You have no idea what she's going through.

BUFFY
(stands) I don't care what she's going through!

XANDER
No, of course not. You think we haven't seen all this before? The part where you just cut us all out. Just step away from everything human and act like you're the law. If you knew what I felt—

BUFFY
I killed Angel! Do you even remember that? I would have given up everything I had to be with— I loved him more than I will ever love anything in this life. And I put a sword through his heart because I had to.

WILLOW
And that all worked out OK.

BUFFY
Do you remember cheering me on? Both of you. Do you remember giving me Willow's message: Kick his ass.

WILLOW
I never said that—

XANDER
This is different—

BUFFY
It is always different! It's always complicated. And at some point, someone has to draw the line, and that is always going to be me. You get down on me for cutting myself off, but in the end the slayer is always cut off. There's no mystical guidebook. No all-knowing council. Human rules don't apply. There's only me. I am the law.

XANDER
There has to be another way.

BUFFY
Then please find it.

Xander takes his coat and leaves. Buffy goes to the tool chest and grabs a sword. She looks at Willow, wanting her to follow, but Willow doesn't move.

WILLOW
I can't. I'm sorry.

Buffy leaves the house, sword in hand.


THERE is the "summary" and it is from Selfless. Season 7 and "calm" is not the same as strong and wise or some sort of "keep (up) chucking" that THIS "fix" explains Buffy OR Angel. ANd thank you all for noticing about WHO had the fantasy about Buffy.

And it isn't lost on me in Selfless, that Joss actually remembered who the heck Buffy is to her core: the "affirmation" for B/A.
I'm sorry, but Illyria-Fred was never Angel's "choice"--in any timeline; we always knew how dead Fred felt about the "hero" and the fact "forced" life changes are the modus operandi for Joss's "explanations" EXCEPT for Buffy's choice that ANGEL is first and ALWAYS first.
Just sayin'
Hugs
sybil
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