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Buffy Season 4: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mylie wrote:
Also, I kind of dislike Buffy's line : "And the thing is, I like my evil like I like my men-- evil. "


Yeah, it is a weird joke for Buffy to make at her own expense. But I do think it's kind of funny in light of everyone assuming Angel is evil again. Smile

I guess I can see Buffy making fun of the perception that she likes evil men.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

4x15 This Year's Girl
Written by Doug Petrie
Directed by Michael Gershman
Original air date: February 22, 2000



1. Overall thoughts on this episode?
2. What did you make of Faith's dreams?
3. Thoughts on the Angel references and Buffy's decision not to tell Riley about him?
4. Favorite lines/scenes?
5. Anything stand out on rewatch?
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Something Blue

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

It's funny and enjoyable. I struggle with the Buffy/Riley stuff in this. I remembered liking them during s4 and thinking they were cute but their scenes made me really uncomfortable here, except for the wedding stuff.

Giles has the funniest stuff in this episode.

2. What do you think of Buffy's comments about love in the opening of the episode?

I think it's very in character for her.

3. Do you think the Scoobies were too hard on Willow given her heartbreak over Oz?

No? Were they hard on her? I didn't notice.

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

My favorite scene is Buffy telling Riley she's getting married. It was hilarious.

5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

Nope! Sorry, this is the kind of episode that I enjoy but I don't really have much to say about it. I also often forget about it, but I always enjoy watching it nonetheless.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:
Mylie wrote:
Also, I kind of dislike Buffy's line : "And the thing is, I like my evil like I like my men-- evil. "


Yeah, it is a weird joke for Buffy to make at her own expense. But I do think it's kind of funny in light of everyone assuming Angel is evil again. Smile

I guess I can see Buffy making fun of the perception that she likes evil men.


I think my problem is how I perceive it knowing what happens later on. I can't appreciate it anymore.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:


What do you think of Buffy's comments about love in the opening of the episode?  And this is case in point of that! When Buffy talks about something being missing, I personally think it's a lack of major chemistry and/or actual romantic feelings! The reason Riley won't cause her heartbreak and misery (ha!) is because she doesn't feel that strongly about him. She didn't go through this type of waffling before hooking up with Parker because she was actually crazily attracted to him! (And since he was hiding that he was a "bad boy," I don't think that counts.)

What Buffy is basically saying here, to me, is: "Real love and passion have to go hand in hand with FEELINGS" -- both good and bad feelings, sure, but with Riley, it's just too...forced. She sees a nice, normal guy who likes her and she thinks she should go for it. (Now, I do think she *develops* feelings for Riley eventually, but that's a different story.)


Oh, yes. Definitely. I think that by rule, if you feel like something's missing then the answer's right there.

Quote:


I do have a little bit of a grudge against this episode now because the Spuffies use the scene of Willow shoving a cookie into Spike's mouth as proof that he'll end up with "cookies" Buffy (whereas Angel is associated with cookie dough because of the IWRY ice cream). I'm irrationally annoyed by it, especially because they seem to be right comics-wise.



Yes, that does annoy me as well. At least it wasn't Buffy shoving it down his mouth lol
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mylie wrote:
I think my problem is how I perceive it knowing what happens later on. I can't appreciate it anymore.


Ugh, there's too much of that in Season 4! Boo!
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This Year's Girl

Overall thoughts on this episode? I really, really love this episode. I'm trying to keep an open mind on rewatch but I remember thinking Who Are You was a bit of a disappointment after this amazing setup.

I think what I love most about it is that it's an episode about BUFFY. Not Riley. Not Spike. Not even Giles (though I didn't really begrudge him his little episode, which I also love). This season is too much about the dudes, and I'm happy to see the focus back on Buffy and her evil twin. It's so meaty and delicious when Faith talks about Angel and Joyce and how much things have changed. Faith knows more about Buffy than Riley does, and her presence takes us back to the heart of the show, Buffy's house.

This feels like the first episode with something interesting to say about Buffy since Fear Itself, more than 10 episodes ago, which is crazy. And (coincidentally?), I think this is the first time we've seen Buffy's house and Joyce since Fear Itself, though I could be forgetting something.

What did you make of Faith's dreams? I really like the opening dream with the Dawn references. I also like how Faith sees Buffy as her tormentor in her dreams, defeats her to awaken from her coma, and then becomes her at the end of the episode.

And once Faith sees herself from Buffy's perspective in the next episode, she ends up on Buffy's side (as in, her self-hatred comes to the fore). So is the Buffy of Faith's dreams actually Faith, too? Is she inflicting punishment on herself in her dreams, as she will do in Who Are You?

I'm assuming the snake at the picnic is a metaphor for how Faith sees the Mayor -- as harmless. Or maybe as impotent? He helped sway her to the dark side and ended up being as effective as that little snake instead of the Big Bad demon snake he was supposed to be.

I want to listen to the Doug Petrie commentary at some point this week, since I didn't see a transcript of it online.

Thoughts on the Angel references and Buffy's decision not to tell Riley about him? Well, I love the Angel references! I have mixed feelings about the Buffy/Riley stuff. On the one hand, I can understand Buffy's possible reasons for not telling Riley the whole story. He is not the most reasonable of dudes and is already feeling lost and confused. Buffy probably doesn't want to give him any more reason to doubt her. And let's not forget that whole "comparing numbers" conversation from A New Man. Riley is already threatened by Buffy's "experience." He's barely made peace with her slayer strength, so giving him something new to angst over seems like a dicey proposition.

On the other hand, if Buffy really wants to make this relationship work, she's making a big mistake. Not because she owes Riley info about her ex, but because her relationship with Angel is a huge part of who Buffy is. She's not letting Riley know her. She's not giving him a chance to understand her. (I don't think he deserves one, necessarily, but then I'm not dating him.)

If this relationship wasn't already doomed (hint: it was), it's definitely heading into doomed territory now.

Favorite lines/scenes?

"I'd hate to see the pursuit of a homicidal lunatic get in the way of pursuing a homicidal lunatic."

"Who's Faith?"

"Five by five." (As said by Faith-as-Buffy at the end. So chilling!)

Anything stand out on rewatch?

"I just suck at the whole gray area thing" - This line of Riley's reminds me of Buffy's similar comment in Season 12 #1. And the Mayor's back, too, so this episode seems very relevant. Smile

"Perhaps there's some sort of rehabilitation we haven't thought about" - Yes, it involves Angel giving Faith a severe cuddling, lol. (Kidding!)

The Willow/Tara scene reminded me of why I didn't like Tara so much on my first watch. She's just not used very effectively and the wardrobe department seems to dislike her. I know things get better again in the next episode.

Faith to Joyce: "And now you might as well be dead" - OUCH OUCH OUCH.

This episode also hints at a possible factor in the Scoobies' decision to keep Spike alive. Not because they like him so much, but because on some level they've convinced themselves that, underneath it all, HE likes THEM.


SCRIPTY WHATNOTS

I only did a quick review this week, but I spotted two things to note:

It's originally Tuesday, February 8, when Faith wakes up in the script. I guess this episode was originally set to air earlier? I'm assuming Joss changed it from Tuesday to Friday (February 25, the Friday after the episode aired) so he could do the church scene in Who Are You.

This line of Faith's was shortened:

FAITH
That's one interpretation. But in my dream, she does it for a guy! If it weren't so corny, it'd be beautiful. True love conquers all, and that. But then…


Last edited by Grace Newman on Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:48 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I wrote:
I also like how Faith sees Buffy as her tormentor in her dreams, defeats her to awaken from her coma, and then becomes her at the end of the episode.

And once Faith sees herself from Buffy's perspective in the next episode, she ends up on Buffy's side (as in, her self-hatred comes to the fore). So is the Buffy of Faith's dreams actually Faith, too? Is she inflicting punishment on herself in her dreams, as she will do in Who Are You?


I have been thinking about this more, and I like the reverse, too, that once Faith wakes up, she is almost like a piece of Season 3 Buffy who has woken up in the middle of Season 4 and doesn't recognize her life.

Angel is gone and she's dating some "college beefstick." It's been almost like a performance, if we think back to Buffy's dream in Hush. She's been playing the role of Riley's girlfriend but she clearly doesn't trust him enough to be completely honest with him about the Season 3 stuff. She's been taking her family mostly for granted — represented by Joyce in this episode, but we've seen it with Giles in A New Man and the Scoobies in general in The I in Team. All very normal college freshman stuff, but it's still really interesting to think about some of Faith's dialogue as Buffy criticizing herself. How could she move on from Angel? How could she forget about Faith and put that all behind her? How could she have ever gotten to point of killing Faith (even if it didn't take)?

There are very good answers to all of those questions — mostly, Buffy didn't really have a whole lotta options. Things change and she has to change with them. But I can imagine Season 3 Buffy being confused and disillusioned like Faith is.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2018 2:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I listened to Doug Petrie's commentary track. He didn't get too deep in Faith's dreams, but here are some interesting things he said:

Having Buffy and Faith making a bed in Faith's dream was Joss' idea.

Faith's second dream shows she wants to have a dad. "In her mind, she is this girl and this guy is her dad and she's not bad and she's taken care of and the only thing that screws it up is Buffy." The snake is a reference to the Mayor turning into a giant snake.

"Faith really is Elektra from Daredevil comics. We owe a huge debt to Frank Miller and his creation of that character and how she's tragic but a killer at the same time."

"It always went back and forth, 'Who is the older sister and who is the younger sister?' You know, is Faith the older sister because she's more worldly and more bad, or is Buffy the older sister because she's more strong and mature? It went back and forth. They both are. They're both older and both younger simultaneously."

The scenes with Tara and Willow and with Giles, Spike and Xander were added because the episode came in nine minutes short.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hush

1. Overall thoughts on this episode? Do you think it's the scariest?

This is such a good episode! I wouldn't say it's one of my favorites, but it's definitely one of the best and most impressive ones.

I find it very scary and was on the edge of my seat for a big part of it but it's not scarier than Same Time, Same Place and Helpless for me.

2. Thoughts on Buffy and Riley's first kiss and the big revelations?

The kiss in the dream makes me so uncomfortable, I can't explain it.

The actual first kiss was nice but nothing memorable unfortunately.

I think them turning around facing each other with their arms was so well done. I love how the episode starts with them not being able to stop talking and blabbering and then at the end, they can't find anything to say to each other. The whole thing is really about communication and I think it works really well as a standalone episode.

3. What about our introduction to Tara?

It's so perfect!! I am immediately drawn to her. She's so precious and I love the instant connection Willow and her have.

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

The Willow/Tara spell scene is my favorite. It's such a powerful moment. I think this rewatch is going to make me gaga for them. I haven't watched in a long time and I'm already very much into it.

My favorite line(s) :
I'm definitely nothing special / No you are.

5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

While the Xander/Anya/Spike scene at Giles is well executed and really funny. It feels a bit forced... Why exactly did Spike had the vamp face on? It's the only moment in the episode where he has it and it seems very convenient.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Doomed

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

This episode is very meh and kind of ridiculous.

Giles having the talisman out of nowhere is very convenient and poor writing. It's also not a very memorable episode and probably the weakest apocalypse storyline in the whole buffyverse.

2. What do you think of the development of the Buffy/Riley relationship?

I'm not a fan. I used to enjoy them find but this time around they make me very uncomfortable for some reason. I hated how Riley kept pressuring Buffy, when she kept saying no. Also this line is really awkward:

"I’m not trying to scare you, and I’m not going to force myself on you. "

3. How did you feel about the subplots with Spike and with Willow?

I find it ridiculous. I think Willow feels sorry for him because she's going through a funk herself, whatever. I do enjoy seeing him act pathetic but I don't understand the scoobies being all chummy with him and bringing him along.

I understand that the goal was to bring Spike to realize he can fight demons and take pleasure out of it but the getting there didn't make that much sense to me.

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

Riley : I don’t see a scratch on you.
Buffy : You’re not looking hard enough.

For some reason it really resonated with me.

5. Did anything stand out on rewatch?

I think the point of the episode was to show that Buffy and Riley being together would be a good thing for the world, which is an interesting contrast to how Buffy/Angel has the potential to destroy the world.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A New Man

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

I think it's funny. I'm not a big Ethan stan the way other fans are. I'm kinda meh on him. But I do love his and Giles' history. Really the thing I love most about this episode is Giles and Spike. They are like the Odd Couple and it cracks me up.

2. What did you think of the focus on Giles?

Well it's atypical for a Buffy birthday episode but on the other hand, I'm glad that they didn't turn her boyfriend into a monster or drain her of her power and forcer her to fight a psychotic vamp. I guess it's about time Buffy get a birthday reprieve.

On the other hand, it would've been nice if Buffy's birthday episode has been more about - Buffy.

3. Did you like the "meeting the parents" aspect for Buffy and Riley? What about their "comparing numbers" stuff?

I thought the Giles stepping in and meeting Riley was cute. This is a peak at Buffy getting to do the traditional "hey this is my human boyfriend" thing and that's nice. It all feels very "normal."

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

"And your what? Shocked and disappointed? I'm evil!"

"Well, you were mythtaken."

"You can't walk around pretending your less than who you are." RIGHT ON WILLOW.

I feel like such a Spike stan, please don't unfriend me I just really enjoy him in s4 but Spike taking measurements in the graveyard is my favorite thing ever.

5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

The whole Riley being (what I perceive as) annoyed that Buffy is such a badass is a little off putting. I know he doesn't really know what a slayer is or how powerful a slayer is etc but he's like "I'm not even sure I can take you." Umm no ... you can't. Get over it homeslice! And the Buffy and Riley fight scene, I think that's supposed to be hot but umm did anyone else ever watch Helpless? Now that's a hot fight scene Smile

I guess the whole Riley feels emasculated thing is supposed to be undercut when Riley says he "Likes" Buffy being strong. But umm I don't believe him ha.

I love the conflicting styles of "parenting" between Giles and Dr. Walsh. Giles believes in allowing Buffy to thrive in the face of adversity without micromanaging/controling her (this actually is consistent with his deciding to leave in s6 when he may have felt she was becoming too reliant on him). Walsh on the other hand, obviously, believes in order, micromanagement, a more authoritative style of parenting.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A New Man

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

It's a fun one but I somehow always forget about it. I think it works so well with the identity theme of the season and it has lots of funny moments.

2. What did you think of the focus on Giles?

Given the little amount of screentime and focus Giles has had so far this season, it was very needed I think. I think his feelings here are very much valid. I felt bad for him.

3. Did you like the "meeting the parents" aspect for Buffy and Riley? What about their "comparing numbers" stuff?

I did like the meeting the parents aspects but not the comparing the numbers. It kind of made me sad/angry to see Buffy feel bad about being stronger or feeling like she needs to appear weaker than she truly is. At the end, Riley seems to be okay with it all but still tells her that he'll eventually be able to take her down. I know it's played as a joke, but I still hate it. This rewatch is souring me on Buffy/Riley which makes me sad. I used to enjoy them, at least during s4. But now all of their scenes make me uncomfortable.

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

My favorite line is definitely Buffy saying "You were mythtaken". It's pretty iconic.

My favorite scene is the Willow/Tara one with the flower. I lmao when Tara said "I don't know, but, uh, the petals are off." Their interactions are so natural and already charged with emotions, you can see them falling in love with each other. It's really impressive given the little amount of focus they got so far.

5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

Not really? I can't come up with anything...
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:


I feel like such a Spike stan, please don't unfriend me I just really enjoy him in s4 but Spike taking measurements in the graveyard is my favorite thing ever.



OMG, I didn't even realize that's what he was doing!!! Amazing...
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 17, 2018 6:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

4x16 Who Are You
Written by Joss Whedon
Directed by Joss Whedon
Original air date: February 29, 2000



1. Overall thoughts on this episode?
2. What do you find most interesting about the Buffy-Faith swap?
3. What did you think of the Scoobies, Tara and Riley in this episode?
4. Favorite lines/scenes?
5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

This is episode #72, so we have reached the halfway point of BtVS!
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