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Awakening Episode Season 4
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WhoGotGme
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:56 pm    Post subject: Awakening Episode Season 4 Reply with quote

WTF? Can you guys help me breakdown this episode. I think that I am going to watch it again, but when I saw it for the first time I was at a loss. So the shaman gave Angel the illusion of reality. Wesley, Cordy, Gunn, and Connor were all present. Was this illusion verbal as well? Could they hear what Angel was saying? They show him and Cordy having sex, then in that special moment he calls out Buffy's name. Huh? A Bit Shifty

Does this mean that Cordy heard him? How does Buffy come into the equation? Did the shaman know about Buffy or did Angel just think about Buffy because she is the one that he really wants? Angelus is back, but he appears so have arrived by just a dream/illusion. It looks as if he was remembering his time with Buffy brought him back, not Cordy. I get that, but why start out with him having sex with Cordy? Well, I know they didn't really have sex, but was it really Angel's illusion? He started out wanting to have sex with Cordy, but then he calls out for Buffy. When they do the cut scene to him still laying on the table in the cage I was losing my mind. It was a powerful scene, but I was still confused. Nothing in the illusion happened, but how did the shaman know what to do to Angel to get him to turn? Maybe it was just Angel all along. Maybe he just relaxed, thought about Cordy because he thought that he was in love with her and that she would make him happy, then he realizes that he is thinking about Buffy and calls her name, so really Buffy still does it for him. I don't think that Cordy knows he was calling for Buffy.

What are your thoughts on this episode?
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The Librarian
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 18, 2007 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, I'll offer you just one thought for now, until the others catch up.

What this shows clearly is that sex is not the trigger for perfect happiness, at least, not now. He needs the whole being a champion, loved and approved, thing. But even that isn't enough, on its own - he still needs Buffy - that's the one last thing that breaks the hold that he has on his soul.

And I do believe that was Joss sticking two fingers up to those in the studio who demanded a love interest for Angel.

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WhoGotGme
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really like your thoughts on this. Since I have always been torn with regards to Angel's curse, it's really muddled things up. I wish Joss had addressed this issue again for Angel left Sunny D. So the whole sequence was what Angel thought his perfect day would be? Him being the champion, killing the beast and saving the world, having love and approval from his friends, and finally having sex with Cordy, which turns out he really wanted it to be Buffy. Is that your breakdown? I never thought of the curse and a series of events to achieve before Angel would get his "perfect" happiness. It didn't seem to play that way during Season 2 of Buffy when they first slept together.

So Angel can have sex whenever with whomever as long as it's not Buffy or he is thinking about Buffy? Geez, that's coldblooded. I knew that when he slept with Darla that he never loved her, but I was still concerned that Angelus could come out to play.
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The Librarian
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2007 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget that Angel only knows what we know about the happiness clause, as and when we find out. So, yes, when he sleeps with Darla, it's his way of trying to 'kill' himself, and give himself over to Angelus. He expects to lose his soul.

But it turns out that it really isn't sex that does it, and that's when he has an epiphany about that, and about his own state of perfect despair.

So, one might assume that he's been celibate up until then, thinking that sex was the trigger. And there are the references to the rumours that he's a eunuch, which support that.

But, if sex isn't the trigger for perfect happiness, than you have to find a scenario that is, and that's what's conjured up. I can't remember exactly how it goes - it's years since I watched S4, but as I recall, it isn't what he consciously thinks is the perfect day. Somehow, the magician manages to get him to live out a day with all the perfect happiness elements, by giving him visions or hallucinations that he thinks are real, and those set right all that's wrong in his life.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2007 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Librarian wrote:
Quote:
But, if sex isn't the trigger for perfect happiness, than you have to find a scenario that is, and that's what's conjured up. I can't remember exactly how it goes - it's years since I watched S4, but as I recall, it isn't what he consciously thinks is the perfect day. Somehow, the magician manages to get him to live out a day with all the perfect happiness elements, by giving him visions or hallucinations that he thinks are real, and those set right all that's wrong in his life.


To use WhoGotGme's turn of phrase, I thought that Awakenings was probably the lamest episode in all of season 4. (I think that even the writers knew it - given Angelus's comment in Soulless about the whole "Indiana Jones Raiders of the Lost ark thing - what was that all about?"

IN a nutshell, it seems that Angel can only attain perfect happiness if he saves the world, with everyone in it, with the loving help and support of his friends and family. Sex with Cordelia is just the cherry on the cake - and yes, there never has been an explanation as to why Angel said "Buffy" at the moment of climax. The writers had to come up with something that was vaguely believable, and IMO failed dismally. However, they had to get Angelus back somehow, and I guess this was their best shot.
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WhoGotGme
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, this is why it plays tricks with my mind because it's all still so fresh to me. I've seen the episodes within a month, so when they try to pull a fast one I am all over it. That is why I am telling you guys, go back and watch the "Amends" episode to refresh your memory. This whole thing with Cordy is so contrived that I was almost not going to finish Season 4. We know that even in Angel's dreams Buffy is a danger to the both of them. That is how much they mean to each other. The connection just can't be broken. This episode is just so deep and says it all. Angel can't even touch intimately or think about having sex with Buffy because Angelus is going to come out and play. Not to mention, if you remember the sun never came up and it started to snow. The fact that Angel could not even kill himself on that night was huge. It's a very deep episode and let's the viewers know that the PTB want him to fulfill his destiny.
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LisaP
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 23, 2007 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhoGotGme wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, this is why it plays tricks with my mind because it's all still so fresh to me. I've seen the episodes within a month, so when they try to pull a fast one I am all over it. That is why I am telling you guys, go back and watch the "Amends" episode to refresh your memory. This whole thing with Cordy is so contrived that I was almost not going to finish Season 4. We know that even in Angel's dreams Buffy is a danger to the both of them. That is how much they mean to each other. The connection just can't be broken. This episode is just so deep and says it all. Angel can't even touch intimately or think about having sex with Buffy because Angelus is going to come out and play. Not to mention, if you remember the sun never came up and it started to snow. The fact that Angel could not even kill himself on that night was huge. It's a very deep episode and let's the viewers know that the PTB want him to fulfill his destiny.


I well understand your enthusiasm and ability to watch all the episodes in one month! And now there is no way I can avoid sounding patronising here, so do forgive me... I've pretty much watched an episode of either BtVS or Ats nearly every day for five years or so, and can probably stand up and recite 'Amends' line by line and word for word. I would guess that several others on this board can do the same (although, I suspect they will be far too mature and wise to admit it!) so thanks, but I really don't need to re-watch the episode again to know exactly what happened there.

FYI, 'Amends' was written with the precise objective to set Angel up for his own TV series as the decision to spin off 'Angel' had been made at the end of season 2. (If you really want the whole nerd thing - David Greenwalt saw the potential when the episode "I only have eyes for you" was made. It was then that he saw that David Boreanaz had the capability of carrying his own show).
So, in 'Amends' they had to do quite a lot of stuff.
1. They had to give Angel some more backstory to flesh out the reasons he would have to atone.
2. They had to set up the idea that Angel would drink from Buffy at some point.
3. They had to demonstrate that Angel had been brought back from hell because the PTB had a purpose for him - hence the freak snowstorm that prevented him from burning up in the sunrise.
4. They had to have the protagonist (Buffy) being the means that Angel came to understand that he had this special destiny.

Apart from there being lots and lots of Angel in this episode - always a good thing in my book, especially half unhinged in an extremely panting and sexy way - Amends is not particularly a favourite with me, mostly because as an episode it does actually have to do a bit too much setting up and as a result I think the dialogue and set pieces are a bit clunky. But I agree, the scene with Buffy and Angel at the end where she confesses her love for him, and how much it hurts is very powerful, and something that SMG does very, very well. And, it must be said, that DB never reached the crescendos of emotion with any of his other leading ladies. Real toe to toe stuff.
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WhoGotGme
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2007 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LisaP wrote:
WhoGotGme wrote:
Quote:
Yeah, this is why it plays tricks with my mind because it's all still so fresh to me. I've seen the episodes within a month, so when they try to pull a fast one I am all over it. That is why I am telling you guys, go back and watch the "Amends" episode to refresh your memory. This whole thing with Cordy is so contrived that I was almost not going to finish Season 4. We know that even in Angel's dreams Buffy is a danger to the both of them. That is how much they mean to each other. The connection just can't be broken. This episode is just so deep and says it all. Angel can't even touch intimately or think about having sex with Buffy because Angelus is going to come out and play. Not to mention, if you remember the sun never came up and it started to snow. The fact that Angel could not even kill himself on that night was huge. It's a very deep episode and let's the viewers know that the PTB want him to fulfill his destiny.


I well understand your enthusiasm and ability to watch all the episodes in one month! And now there is no way I can avoid sounding patronising here, so do forgive me... I've pretty much watched an episode of either BtVS or Ats nearly every day for five years or so, and can probably stand up and recite 'Amends' line by line and word for word. I would guess that several others on this board can do the same (although, I suspect they will be far too mature and wise to admit it!) so thanks, but I really don't need to re-watch the episode again to know exactly what happened there.

FYI, 'Amends' was written with the precise objective to set Angel up for his own TV series as the decision to spin off 'Angel' had been made at the end of season 2. (If you really want the whole nerd thing - David Greenwalt saw the potential when the episode "I only have eyes for you" was made. It was then that he saw that David Boreanaz had the capability of carrying his own show).
So, in 'Amends' they had to do quite a lot of stuff.
1. They had to give Angel some more backstory to flesh out the reasons he would have to atone.
2. They had to set up the idea that Angel would drink from Buffy at some point.
3. They had to demonstrate that Angel had been brought back from hell because the PTB had a purpose for him - hence the freak snowstorm that prevented him from burning up in the sunrise.
4. They had to have the protagonist (Buffy) being the means that Angel came to understand that he had this special destiny.

Apart from there being lots and lots of Angel in this episode - always a good thing in my book, especially half unhinged in an extremely panting and sexy way - Amends is not particularly a favourite with me, mostly because as an episode it does actually have to do a bit too much setting up and as a result I think the dialogue and set pieces are a bit clunky. But I agree, the scene with Buffy and Angel at the end where she confesses her love for him, and how much it hurts is very powerful, and something that SMG does very, very well. And, it must be said, that DB never reached the crescendos of emotion with any of his other leading ladies. Real toe to toe stuff.


LOL, Laughing You crack me up Lisa P. I'm not offended BTW. I am however, surprised that you took such an issue with the "Amends" episode. I guess I just had a different take on it. I didn't feel that it had a sort of "setting up" aspect to it. I thought it was long overdue for the writers to explore the "dark side" of Angel and just how dangerous he was when he wants Buffy sexually. I always felt that Angel was no less "dangerous" because he was not Angelus. I do disagree with your 1-4 ascertain. I think your #1 was already laid out before the "Amends" episode. I got early on what Angel was about. That was the tortured Angel that I loved so much. The damaged Angel that I felt so deeply sad for. I think #2 was the best thing that Joss could give us because he knew that Buffy and Angel would not have sex again before he left the show. The exchange that happened between Buffy/Angel was both powerful and sexual. I listened to Joss talk about that episode and he said that it was his sexual metaphor and that Buffy's got her orgasm. I never felt that the reference in "Amends" was a prelude to the finale. For #3, I felt that the PTB had something to do with it, but ultimately I think that Buffy's love was the trigger. When she dropped the ring in the same spot they were in the previous Season it allowed Angel to come back. What if she never did that and decided to keep the ring? I felt that the rings kept them bound together somehow. With #4, I think before Angel died he knew that he was supposed to help with the good fight, but when he was brought back he was uncertain what it was all about or who sent him back. I think Angel knew the gravity of his destiny when he could not kill himself, not so much Buffy's speech in the end. She tried to talk him down, but she did not have the power to keep the sun from rising. The look on Angel's face was priceless. He was so devastated by the realization that he could not have Buffy the way he wanted her and by the feeling of hopelessness. He didn't feel strong enough and she was his real weakness.
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The Librarian
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 01, 2007 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

WhoGotGme wrote

Quote:
That is why I am telling you guys, go back and watch the "Amends" episode to refresh your memory.


Um... Like Lisa said.

Whilst it's still best in any debate if you cite your sources, there are episodes, and then there are iconic episodes. I think you can assume, on this dedicated B/A forum, that readers don't need their memories refreshing about the overall drift of episodes like Amends.

Quote:
I didn't feel that it had a sort of "setting up" aspect to it.


That's one of the pro's (and con's) of having seen the shows right from the start, as they happened. There was a tremendous amount of discussion of everything that happened, as it happened, and fed by statements and interviews from the PtB...

Quote:
I always felt that Angel was no less "dangerous" because he was not Angelus


This is something on which many of us took issue with the PtB. It seemed to a lot of people that the writers concentrated too much on Angel's 'humanity' and entirely forgot that he was a vampire, and a very dangerous creature. A lot of fanfic comes to the rescue there...

Quote:
I think Angel knew the gravity of his destiny when he could not kill himself


Well, we'd like to think so, wouldn't we? However, Joss seems to have been either schizophrenic or amnesiac about that. In the newly released Collector's Set, there is a letter from Joss, which I haven't seen so I'm definitely open to correction from anyone who has. However, the letter is reported to tell us that:

While Buffy had mythology, Angel had nothing of the sort, he said. Buffy had a destiny; Angel was a blank slate.

That's rather a disappointing statement, really.

Quote:
The look on Angel's face was priceless. He was so devastated by the realization that he could not have Buffy the way he wanted her and by the feeling of hopelessness.


Yes. DB always apparently feels that he's better doing the lighthearted comic stuff, whereas we know he really excels at the angsty and broody. And we all love that Angel, not the comedian that comes later...


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WhoGotGme
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2007 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess for me, I think the best way to have made this episode more believable was to have Buffy do a crossover. I know that they weren't able to because of network issues, but then it really should have been left alone. I don't think they should have tried to protray Angelus if they could not do it right. I know that it added to the craziness of the Season and what was going on, but there are so many other ways that they could have done it. I know that Joss tried to throw us a bone by having him call out Buffy's name, but it was done in typical Joss fashion. He leaves a lot open to interpretation. It's like we have to get into the shows psyche and try to break it down. How about just being straight forward with the viewers. This is probably one of the most maddening things for me about the show.
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 7:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow, there has been no new post in here in over two years. Yikes! I hope someone reads this. Okay...I read the posts here about the sex scene with Cordy and as to the reason *why* he calls out Buffy's name. This thought plagued me so much when I watched Awakening. I was so obsessed with getting a clear answer to it that I immediately jumped on different AtS boards to see what others were saying about it. There are two main theories. One of them being the one that Bangels support: That Angel was thinking of Buffy at that moment. The second theory is that in that moment of losing his soul, he calls out Buffy's name because he associates the losing of his soul with his sexual experience with Buffy. That was the only other time he had lost his soul so he had nothing to compare it to. I have to admit, this is the one area I am really torn on. While watching that scene, it seems to me that he is already in the process of losing his soul when he calls out Buffy's name. Moments before that, he is really into it with Cordy, eyes closed...and then we get the dramatic bang of music and his eyes open fast and it appears to me that he is losing his soul at that moment. It's then that he calls out Buffy's name.Which would lend itself to the idea that he is associating the loss of his soul with the night of "Surprise". That bothers me so much. Obviously it's bothersome because if that's the case, then it means that having sex with Cordy contributed to the loss of his soul. I don't want to accept that. What are your thoughts on the second theory?
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

devotedbangel wrote:
Wow, there has been no new post in here in over two years. Yikes! I hope someone reads this.


You might be surprised at how many of us there are who read every new post. Smile And actually, we like it when old threads are revived.

Quote:
That bothers me so much. Obviously it's bothersome because if that's the case, then it means that having sex with Cordy contributed to the loss of his soul. I don't want to accept that. What are your thoughts on the second theory?


Well, I'm a Bangel (and a certified Capt. Obvious), and I support the second theory. Kind of.

The way I see it, the illusion that Angel experienced was specifically concocted, by his own subconscious, to be the world that he wanted. He wanted to save the day, he wanted to make nice with all of his friends and son, and he wanted to love Cordelia. Yes-- but the key word there is wanted. It would have been secure and comfortable for him to have a simple, non-threatening romance with a good and willing woman, and he wanted that.

In real life it couldn't have happened because he didn't love Cordy and Cordy didn't love him, but his subconscious had free rein to change that. Just like he turned the Apocalypse into a series of Indiana Jones-style puzzles, he turned Cordy into someone who could handle his inner demon, and himself into someone who had no Buffy in permanent residence in his soul.

When he had fooled himself into perfect happiness, the curse kicked in and the illusion disappeared. That's why he thought of Buffy right then-- because he wasn't just remembering the curse, he was remembering his real self. Cordy was the key to a fake version of happiness. Buffy is Angel's true, painful, soul-deep reality.
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devotedbangel
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 21, 2010 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
When he had fooled himself into perfect happiness, the curse kicked in and the illusion disappeared. That's why he thought of Buffy right then-- because he wasn't just remembering the curse, he was remembering his real self. Cordy was the key to a fake version of happiness. Buffy is Angel's true, painful, soul-deep reality.



That makes perfect sense. I feel better now! Thank you so much for answering! Very Happy
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 25, 2010 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
And I do believe that was Joss sticking two fingers up to those in the studio who demanded a love interest for Angel.

Jo


And I salute him for that! Razz


Kairos wrote:
devotedbangel wrote:
Wow, there has been no new post in here in over two years. Yikes! I hope someone reads this.


You might be surprised at how many of us there are who read every new post. Smile And actually, we like it when old threads are revived.

Quote:
That bothers me so much. Obviously it's bothersome because if that's the case, then it means that having sex with Cordy contributed to the loss of his soul. I don't want to accept that. What are your thoughts on the second theory?


Well, I'm a Bangel (and a certified Capt. Obvious), and I support the second theory. Kind of.

The way I see it, the illusion that Angel experienced was specifically concocted, by his own subconscious, to be the world that he wanted. He wanted to save the day, he wanted to make nice with all of his friends and son, and he wanted to love Cordelia. Yes-- but the key word there is wanted. It would have been secure and comfortable for him to have a simple, non-threatening romance with a good and willing woman, and he wanted that.

In real life it couldn't have happened because he didn't love Cordy and Cordy didn't love him, but his subconscious had free rein to change that. Just like he turned the Apocalypse into a series of Indiana Jones-style puzzles, he turned Cordy into someone who could handle his inner demon, and himself into someone who had no Buffy in permanent residence in his soul.

When he had fooled himself into perfect happiness, the curse kicked in and the illusion disappeared. That's why he thought of Buffy right then-- because he wasn't just remembering the curse, he was remembering his real self. Cordy was the key to a fake version of happiness. Buffy is Angel's true, painful, soul-deep reality.


Wow... just love the way you put that. I've always felt pleased NOT with the episode (ick) but the shout out to B/A but you've given it a whole new meaning Kairos. Heart
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 27, 2010 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Firstly, I completely agree with Kairos and loved the post.

Angel needed a perfect day to get a moments happiness, he saved the world, he saved the damsel in distress (Cordelia), made up with his friends and son, Connor acknowledged that Cordelia was too old for him, he killed the beast, brought the sun back and finally got the girl who accepted him as he was (something that "real" Cordy didn't do, she couldn't be with him because of the things Angelus did), just Cordy alone wasn't enough to make him happy when in other way all that was needed was Buffy Very Happy . And whispering/gasping Buffy's name at the end of the illusion wasn't about remembering the last time he lost his soul, I don't find it very believable that he would drift back to that memory like 'Oh, the last time I lost my soul was with Buffy, maybe I'll repeat what I said then...'. Just don't see why that would happen.

The BAer inside me wants to believe that Angel was thinking about Buffy while doing the deed with Cordelia and since there was no crossovers allowed Charisma Carpenter had to play Buffy's part Wink . Besides, if I remember correctly, Angel had his eyes closed during the whole icky thing, (I personally would like a person to look at me once in a while when doing it) so maybe he was blocking the disturbing image that it was Cordy not Buffy he was boinking. But that's just my hopeful thinking Laughing . What I really believe is that it's just writer's sitting on the fence, the "Buffy" can be interpreted the way you want to, (like C/Aers will say that it didn't mean anything that maybe it was just a recollection of the last time Angel lost his soul) while despite my positive beliefs (or fanwanks) it's just a ploy to keep the viewers watching instead of running to the hills.
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