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sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 871

PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2016 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you understand exactly, ‘Elle!

First, we have to recognize the notion of the “romance novel” and that of “myth.” I would think that romance novels are probably 80 percent of all the books published and it may be higher on line chasing down the “myth” of “true love.” Why is it such a favorite pass time, particularly with women? Because they do not behave or “get” what those women do in such books in order to discover the same truths that a show like “Girls” is all about.

To be safe and trust the entire sense of physical and emotional self, naked, as both giver and receiver of Love’s expressions and gifts; thus Naked, fully seen and ALL of our “many personalities”/moods, curiosities, satisfactions to be explored and fulfilled, in passions of the body, mind and soul.

In real life, love seems to be about also about being seen and cherished/accepted (anyway). Why? Because mature persons build lives that includes work, other people, children, or personal struggles to grow that may be supported by a loving partner(s), but are still uniquely one’s own.

Even sex has a continuum expressed in lust, passion, and purpose, whether done in selfish drive, need to procreate, humor, caring for the self, care for the other even if “orgasm” is not the point, “orgasm” alone is the point, and other explorations of sexuality and even trust, along a continuum of “power” dynamics in initiation, form, and content, physically and emotionally. Notice, I didn’t use the word “marriage.” Also, I have to be clear about something.

A woman’s life is written in blood. A man must go into the world to learn what that means and what it costs. (for real).

A woman who is “broken hearted” may more readily accept “moving on” because she is “wired” to cycles of potential/loss. A man who is “broken hearted” emotionally may have greater difficulty in accepting another with the same “complete self” as “just as good, but different.” Now that is the stuff of romance novels and I have to warn that the “roles” of the usual male or female protagonists may often be switched in Joss’s ditty, just as the “meaning of myth” regarding male/female principle isn’t about the arragenment of genitalia or cultural bias to that arrangement—unless that is also part of the dramatic structure. And BTVS is. Buffy destros one institurtion after another, and Angel is bound by them and suffers because of it. Catholicism, Wolfram & Hart, the duality of demon/soul and “desires of the flesh”/denial of actual needs of that flesh as a “moral” man (IN WHOSE EYES?)

I do not say the people who right romance novels are without skills whatsoever, but there is also a thing called “romance” that Spike represents that is truly what is the actual content of a romance novel. A. there is an ideal fit—and it is not godly, but is very human and tends to make either one partner or another rather a Mary Sue: the chase to capture the heart of someone who emotionally and sexually is nuanced and fulfilled with “the wrong partner” or there is a grave inadequacy that separates the “correct” pair, as the entire point and premise to care works out in some “surprising” way.

Wuthering Heights is (one of my favorite ever books) “high romance” because it speaks of classes, wealth, power, agency, lust, sex, and an utterly selfish DRIVE for “true love” (that really isn’t, as Joss would define it in terms of “sacrifice unto death”). These people live in a world of “privacy”/their own making, unable to live the world because a. Cathy betrays Heathcliffe and doesn’t wait for him to gain “social success” and marries “a good man.” The “timing” and what “perfect happiness looks like” to the “protagonists” of the book; and are the costs paid in a love that consumes the body, (poverty/ wealth; class and power or expectations to that power) or it costs the soul, (withdrawal, self absorption, illness, cruelty, domination, abuse, death of both body and soul).

That is why they end up ghosts, (doomed to each other in a “forever love”, with no way to change their condition or even express it fully in the love they found so “all consuming” in body and soul.

Furthermore, Heathcliffe is ever losing people and he is “marked”/cursed with his love for Cathy. He finally marries Edgar’s sister, a person of “pure love” innocence (cruelly destroyed in body and mind) to be near his real love object and to passive aggressively (and really) hurt EVERYTHING that family stands for. The grief of the endless “what if” of “fate.”

We can easily see in our “romance novel” what Romance Girl feels is “natural” to the structure of a romance novel in which Angel and Spike are “pitched” as in love with the same woman. ( It is no small accident that Liam’s own sister was named Cathy. (Queen) on ATS and Cordelia was considered “the (May) Queen, even as season 8 carries on the “queen is dead, Hail to the queen” regarding Faith.

Because Romance Girl is very versed in the nature of things people do to explore relationship, and it usually is regarding power in the world or sex as expression of “neurotic tendencies” e.g. the “bootie call” “fit,” the Friend/become lover, but “not enough,” the illicit allure—geez, pick any pairing in all of fan fiction that a protagonist will do because “relationship” is the only outlet to explore the idea. Yes, romance novel people/characters tend to be brain dead about relationship, because that is all that is really being used to crate a satisfactory “adventure.”

And I feel that in terms of a romance novel, that Romance Girl would see aka “soap opera” is moving along as she would expect. Never mind that Buffy isn’t posed as this “independent, feminist icon. She is only the “heroine” we watch, through a diary of her thoughts, as told by a “servant” to the narrator, and she really is “just a girl” who gets kicked int the teeth and gets up with kicking ass or kissing ass, thus, who really isn’t more than a confused, young, female who mostly craves and needs a way to not be in her own (terrifying) life. And the swoon worthy hero is going to make it all okay, billowy coat and all, for her to love “the failure” because he “really tries;” and that is enough for US to understand is the power dynamic that makes her so sympathetic and yet so powerful because her fears/flaws “match” the mercy/redemption she affords these guys for their bold efforts and loyalty to her, which makes them “so human” and so “real.”

SEE Harmony, who loves Spike and tells Angel how she tries because it is so hard to be good, without a soul (and that “mental” judgment of “vampire =pure evil” is tainted that she doesn’t exist to do pure evil in a * relationship *) is enough to make the “ahhhh” crowd” of romance novel expectations to almost sympathize, because seeing her is so seeing Spike NOT get what HE wants, too. One loves, the other “just can’t quite” love the same way, no matter how BOTH try. And it’s all so tragic, “if only.” But the narrative always provides bread crumbs for hope, that a. they will grow up, b. they will understand ow to “work things out” together, “they will try to move and fail because in their deepest heart, they know who they love, but have to deal with not having them, but the problem of healing and learning that (happy ending) is exactly what they needed to learn to have each other, (tragic ending) they are grateful to know they gave and got love, but are ready to form a real life with another because of it—who ever you are really rooting for. See Dawson’s Creek. Dawson’s “true love” was “the world/“film,” not “building a life around Joey…and Joey’s love was “sacrifice” at every turn. BECAUSE SHE IS THE STRONG ONE AND SHE IS A GIRL and she “renovates” the dead because LIFE is what “girls” do, with or without a man. But a romance novel wil make sure she gets one because “she deserves to be loved.” And (have a life in the sun—with OUT the “other guy” who loves her, but is gifted “other.” (God, I just can’t take soaps/romance novels. Sorry).

So!

I can’t call Spuffy idiots if they insist on “soap opera” because those are the crumbs of “nautral order” they will see are being put in front of their faces.

However, in this ditty, Angel didn’t sleep with Cordelia, for example. He was possessed, (waiting in the wings), he was drugged and magick was making his psyche “viewable” to us as he journeyed through “perfect happiness” (Long Day’s Journey) and even “Orpheus” was from Faith’s POV, not to mention, Cordy was dead and never left the basement “You’re Welcme.” But “romance novel” people will see his body macking on Cordy and that’s all they need to understand. The reasons are his emotional need, his growing attraction, lust and love, for Cordelia and his ability to heal and move on to a more “mature” relationship—tragically cut short. “No more Buffy”—because next comes Nina and Eve. Jesus.

I try to understand, but I can’t say such a view is true, even if everyone on the planet thinks so. But! Not everyone does. Sorry, Romance Girl! YOU are entitled to emjoy the piece as you wish,; I just can’t be persuaded that THIS story is a typical soap opera, DESPITE THE FACT IT HAS BEEN TURNED INTO ONE. Which is why B/Aers will forever be loyal to the story THEY were promised and NEVER got. (So far and IMO, never can anymore. So that is why I gave up on the comics, “canon” or not.)
HUGS!
Sybil
P.S. nest few days no access to my computer. RL
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RomancexGirl
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Joined: 05 May 2013
Posts: 175
Location: Arizona, USA.

PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 12:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elle2 wrote:

IF that's so...Not only they are idiots and bias..they are also ARROGANT. Unsurprisingly for how many instances have they displayed this kind of behaviour? You said they are not threatened by B/A, but everytime a positive thing happened for B/A, even if it is just a simple articles or event outside Btvs series, like for instance SMG's and DB's birthday greetings to each other, they ARE MANIFESTING their EXISTENCE, loud and clear.


I read reviews of the Buffy/Angel crossover during S10---most of them Spuffy (of course)---and it seemed blatantly clear to me none of them were threatened. They referred to Angel as "first love" or "former love" and Spike "current love". They also stated the comics supported Buffy and Spike being a better fit than Angel and Angel's "realizing" that. Sure, some acknowledged unresolved feelings on Buffy's part for Angel ... but that's all they gave it: unresolved feelings.

They did, however, resent Angel for saying B/S won't last or Spike hasn't changed and that Angel is just "forcing his own flaws on Spike". There may be a little insecurity ... but I think it mostly comes down the fact they just hate Angel.

elle2 wrote:
Hence, most B/A fans savored that moment, because we FINALLY saw them TOGETHER after for so many years and we WERE WILLING to disregard the horrible story of Angel being Twilight, just to WAIT for Joss to develop Buffy/Angel Story furthermore.

And what did Spukies and B/S fans did on Season 8?????? They DEMANDED for B/S and Spuke's story.


I never actually thought about it like this, but you may be on to something. No one expected Spuffy to make a comeback. At the time B/A had won. The outrage, rage, and depression leaking out of the Spuffy fans was cataclysmic. S8 made so many people hate Angel and it made the Spike fans/Spuffies just hate him more. They said such awful things, like Angel raped Buffy via Twilight glow and was a twisted megalomaniac for everything he did to her. It was a storm of character assassination claims. There's also the fact they argued all the "love" claims to Angel from Buffy were all just an "after-affect" of the Twilight glow and therefore didn't "count". To this day, they still believe that. The damage control was real.

Point is, Angel's image was in tatters and then set on fire after S8. The Spuffy fans/Spike fans were incredibly vocal about this and pushed S/B. Now I'm not sure if it was always Joss's intention for Angel look terrible in the eyes of everyone (including the characters) to boast S/B ... but I don't have trouble believing the anti-Angel affect in the fandom must've done SOMETHING. The hate Angel garnered after all that was truly was volcanic.

elle2 wrote:
If the writers would CONTINUE to DEVELOP Spuke's story to being a LEGIT HERO, his OUTCOME will be like Angel. That IS UNAVOIDABLE. And that's what I've been RANTING all about. Because Spuke is BECOMING ANGEL.


... *sighs* You're right, okay? You're right. Spike is becoming Angel. It started ever since S9, when Spike wanted Buffy have "a normal relationship" and Faith kept saying "Spike's more like Angel" now. They even had Buffy make idiotic claims like she fell for the same man twice. She LITERALLY considers Angel and Spike the same person. Spike's just "the Angel she can be with". AND I RESENT IT TOO. Spike's quite literally becomes Angel's replacement by Buffy's side. His personality is no longer as selfish, insensitive, or uncaring. No, he's SELFLESS now. He cares about other people more and FEELS INFINITE REMORSE. Which would great except we have Angel for that. Spike was supposed to stay the insensitive, selfish jackass he was in Atv S5 even with a soul because that was his characterization. That's what made him different from Angel. Maturing Spike? Developing Spike? All that does is turn him into Angel. And the worst part is the writers justify it, yet still try and say Spike is a better choice for Buffy than Angel. Wtf??

So yes, Elle, I know you're right. It'd be stupid to hope this Spuffy break-up will be any different than Bangel's. I JUST HATE IT SO MUCH. On a personal level, they're taking away everything that was special about Angel and B/A while on a writer's level, they're not only repeating the same story but also making their heroine look immature. It's the worst of both worlds, fan and writer.

elle2 wrote:
I already stated before that If Buffy would be the one to decide that she SHOULD leave Spuke, the result is MORE SYMPATHIES would be given to Spuke. For Spuke "uphold" his "loyalty" to Buffy and she COULD NOT Really stomach him. Progress point for Buffy, but it's also progress point for Spuke. Regressed Point for Angel...only because there WOULD BE MORE Spuke sympathizers and we all know by now that Spukies sympathizers WOULD DEMAND their story...again and again. And that's why "Buffy leaving Spuke" is improbable by now, because the "bias spuke" fans who refused to be labeled as idiots...would take it against Buffy and they would harass again the writers, and we are just going in circles again.


You know what the really messed up part is? Buffy being the one to break it off with Spike would actually be good for her. She'd finally be taking a stand for what's best for her and her future instead of listening to everyone else. It's also be great development from who she was in S3. But yet is it gonna be what's gonna happen? No, of course not. Because this season is about Spike and Spike needs to be the noble one. Doesn't matter if Buffy looks like an idiot, because hey at least Spike changed. Rolling Eyes

What truly infuriates me is no one sees the bad writing of this. Other fans are also betting on Spike being the one to leave for these reasons and they think it's a great idea because it's "different". Yes, I agree it's different from Spike ... but it's NOT DIFFERENT FOR BUFFY AND HER STORY IS THE ONLY ONE THAT MATTERS. She has been broken up with---repeatedly---and now she'll just live out the sewer break-up in specific like she never learned anything. Is this really what everyone wants to see? That Buffy still acts like she's 18?

The best I can hope for is the Spuffy break-up IS to dial back the angst and have it be mutual agreement ... that's the best I can hope for.

elle2 wrote:
As to "everything is Fantasy", again we've discussed it before. And I for one agree that is also bad writing, but that's the only way to SAVE Buffy/Angel Tale. Though, it would just make the comics MORE UNRELIABLE. But that's the "best" resolution to save everyone. But then again, as I remember you saying about this "fantasy", it WOULD CRUEL for Joss to do that for B/S fans.


I can see this happening only on the grounds her feelings for Spike and the book her made her ACT on it, like it was with the Twilight glow in S8. It makes Buffy look less regressed. That also throws off the ship just enough to cause issues, but not enough to completely screw over the Spuffy fans so the fandom doesn't start riots. That said, it would still completely render in any lesson and meaning in this season null and void. Like you said, bad writing.

I did say it was cruel ... and it really is. But S8 was also cruel to B/A fans so I guess I shouldn't put Joss past anything.

elle2 wrote:
If you are a B/A fan...you would have agreed that B/S should HAVE NOT happened, because it would compromise our ship.

But if you are a B/S fan...you would like to see that B/S be given a chance. Regardless how it's gonna end, it doesn't matter, because as long as you Buffy with Spuke, it gives you so much delight and excitement.


In what way do I come off as a Spuffy fan? Because I don't hate Spike? Because I consider other possibilities? That's hardly proof I'm Spuffy and I made it abundantly clear time and time again I'm not. If I was, I certainly wouldn't be here debating with you or still hoping for B/A's future. I also made it clear of the B/S in S10 in any way whatsoever. It shouldn't have happened.

elle2 wrote:
Your sympathies for Spuke is the VERY MAIN reason why YOU ARE WILLING to ACCEPT everything even the truth is HIS CONTINUES EXISTENCE JUST MAKE EVERY characters LESSER THAN HIM. I understand you stance. But It has nothing to do with Buffy....for if you love Buffy, YOU WOULD NOT MAKE SENSE on her "REGRESSION" on season 6. Sorry, but I don't believe those Buffy fans who SAY they LOVE Buffy and STILL WANTING Spuke to be with her. It's just NOT RIGHT. And even without biases, Spuke being with Buffy is NOT RIGHT.


It seems the main reason we miscommunicate are because of this:

1). Angel/Angelus and Spike/Soulless Spike are not separate to you. To me, they are.
2). Goes back to #1. You can't understand in any world why I'd accept Buffy being happy with Spike as a Buffy fan because to you Spike souled and soulless are one in the same.
3). You think the fact I've sympathized with Spike in the past and don't blindly hate him relinquishes the fact I'm a Buffy fan.

This is where our divide is. You firmly believe Spike with a soul and without are completely and the totally the same so when you see souled Spike all you're seeing is the abusive soulless version being rewarded. With Angel/Angelus, you believe the same thing ... except to you, Angel was punished by being sent to Hell.

I know you want to be understood ... but so do I. The writers have STATED Angel and Spike against their soulless versions are NOT THE SAME PERSON. The soulless demon is not the human soul. Therefore for you to hold Angel and Spike's crimes against either one of them is completely unfair and irrational no matter how much you may want to. Blaming Spike for anything he did soulless is ridiculous. The Spike now is not the same Spike. That doesn't mean you have to hate him any less, but at least acknowledge that.

So yes, I can accept Buffy being happy with Spike as a Buffy fan and not see her as "damned" because of their past abusive relationship. Spike has a soul now and I refuse to blame the man for what the demon did. That would be illogical. I find Buffy with Spike being offensive for other reasons.

As a Buffy fan, I could accept whatever makes Buffy happy because that's what she deserves. I don't want her passed around as trophy either and I don't want her to be someone who doesn't give her a future ... but I won't resent her if she's at least temporarily happy with Spike and Spike loves her. By your logic, Angel must not truly love Buffy because in the S10 crossover he accepted her being with Spike for the same reason. Because she seemed happy.

elle2 wrote:
So if you said that you are B/A fan and still uphold belief upto Season 8...that means even after the TV series ended, you still believe in B/A. So why as B/A fan, why don't you disregard Season 8, so you wont have to deal with your feelings and confusion about Season 10. Heck, why don't you disregard the whole comics, instead.


I would love to. Discovering these comics has caused me huge pairing and character stress. Ignoring it and not keeping up with them would be a dream ... but I can't do that forever as long as Joss calls it "canon". Whether it's duty of a fan or blind faith things will get better (for Bangel or for the story), it's supposed to be a continuation of the show we all loved. Maybe I just need closure?

elle2 wrote:
Why, if you had a boyfriend whom you only went out with for reasons of escaping your insecurities and going with rebellious behaviour, and NOT ON grounds that you are in love with him....and you had an abusive relationship with him...and continue staying with him, because you ARE AFRAID of losing him on the grounds that you don't believe in TRUE LOVE anymore and that guy was THE BEST OPTION because you eventually have been ABLE to love him through the years...but the ONE you considered TRUE LOVE was still out there, but you don't want to be with him for YOU ARE AFRAID of being TOGETHER means "TRAGEDY"...

do I have to continue of this illogical logic romancegirl? Are you saying that it makes sense that Buffy GIVES UP her ideal love for Angel for her FEAR of "THEY WOULD NOT WORK OUT"...but she IS WILLING TO BELIEVE that a relationship founded on abusive relationship WOULD WORK because she doesn't believe in True Love and that one she's with is THAT SOMEONE SHE LOATHED before? Can you imagine sleeping with someone without BEING REMINDED that you HATED, USED him and DAMNED you?


No, it doesn't make sense at all for Buffy to think of a future of Spike ... because there is no future to envision and there never will be. Just because convinced herself Spike will cause her less heartbreak than Angel doesn't make her look any less delusional and I've criticized this. But what does that have to do with their abusive start? Spike soulless vs. souled aren't the same. Her having feelings for "new" Spike shouldn't be offensive just because of things his soulless version did.

As for myself .... no, I could never be able to with someone who was part of such a dark part of my life. Even if they were different, all the person would be is part of me I wouldn't like to be reminded of. The rape attempt especially would be traumatizing for me. I could never sleep someone who has the face of the person that did to me. Maybe I wouldn't blame Spike if he was souled if I was Buffy either ... but I'd never able to be with him. It's irrational, but it's just how I'd feel.

But Buffy is not me. Just the fact Buffy could look past everything soulless Spike did to her and even Angelus to give Spike and Angel second chances only proves how forgiving she is. Most normal people never would, even if they knew on some rational level it wasn't their fault. That's not something to criticize her for. That's something to admire.

elle2 wrote:
What is the sanction of Spuke SEXUALLY ATTACKING Buffy and Publicly SHAMING her? HE WAS AWARDED OF SOUL.


Spike was punished thoroughly for the rape attempt and all his other past crimes. That's the burden that comes with a soul: the guilt, the self-hate. It wasn't nearly as simple as being good enough for Buffy and earning her love. He wasn't breaking down and brooding the way Angel did, but he did feel guilt. You can criticize Buffy's reaction to this and the execution all day---hell, I don't blame you---but to say Spike wasn't punished at all? Wrong.

elle2 wrote:
There is a reason why I hate Spuke. And if my long litany of him "PUTTING EVERY CHARACTER" lesser than him still doesn't hit you as LEGIT reason why I don't consider Spuke with Buffy as "reasonable ending", I don't know how in the world would I be able to continue this things with you.


Hey. I COMPLETELY UNDERSTAND why you hate Spike. The way you feel---how Spike is put above everyone else---is totally justified because it has truth in it. There is a lot of Spike bias in the writing ever since S7 and Angel in comparison get the shittiest end of the stick, especially in the comics. I hate it too because Spike is not perfect, Buffy shouldn't be regressed just for his sake, and Angel is a much better person than Spike ever was. I can't hate Spike, but I share your frustrations. The only thing I can't understand with you is why you consider Spike souled and soulless one in the same. Confused

If you just hated the execution, then that's different. But it seems to me it's not the execution you hate and just the fact you haven't forgiven S6, even though soulless Spike and souled Spike aren't the same.

elle2 wrote:
And if you agreed that the comics "has been flipped around", then simply, the story is NOT ABOUT Buffy anymore. THEREFORE, the COMICS, REGARDLESS if Joss said it is CANON.....IT SIMPLY IS NOT ANYMORE WORTH READING for those Buffy, B/A and Angel fans.


You may be right about this ... but my problem is I'm still hoping. Hoping for things to be better. That'll it will about Buffy again. I'm hoping S10 ends with finding their way back to her if it's supposed to be about adulthood. You lost in faith in that and that's okay, but I haven't. Not yet. Joss still says his favorite character is Buffy.

elle2 wrote:
On the other hand, JM has his PR Team composed of Spukey fans and there is one part of his PR team who has been PESTERING even David to "support" JM's project. Those Spukey fans have so-called SOCIAL MEDIA CONNECTIONS with the writers and Joss whedon, so it's not a puzzlement that they CAN AIR their grievances to the writers in CLOSE RANGE.


What I gathered from interviews was that James Marsters was never a Spuffy fan. He was a Spike fan, not Spuffy fan. He thought their abusive start would be too unforgivable to ever justify. He likes Spike better as a "underdog" character, one who loses. He even interpreted Spike's reaction to Buffy's confession at the end of S7 as a strong moment because it's him acknowledging "she really loves Angel and not him". Of course, this was a long time ago so it's in every possibility he changed his perspective ... but to ship Spuffy? I think a PR team is more to just keep his fans happy.

That said though, it's really no wonder Spike fans have contaminated the S10 writing. Bangel fans have been so quiet, especially since S8. It's a wonder if Joss even knows we still exist anymore when all he gets is the Spuffies.

elle2 wrote:
Romancegirl, since you know that SMG has been a pro-B/A, DO YOU STILL ACTUALLY WONDER if she reads the comics?


I really do admire how SMG can keep on enjoying Bangel and blissfully ignore the comics. She may consider them fanfics, but damn is she saving herself a lot less shipper dilemmas than I am.

elle2 wrote:
If Buffy is TOLD by those people who are "concerned" for to GIVE UP her IDEAL and UNATTAINABLE love....then why NOBODY has TOLD Spuke to give up his? Why it IS Okay for the writers or those Spukey fans to see that "Spuke Deserves Buffy and Buffy deserves Spuke", but it IS DIFFICULT for them to write "Buffy DESERVES OTHER THAN Spuke"???

Is Spuke the ONLY CHARACTER who has DREAMS and GOALS to BE GIVEN as REWARD?

What about Buffy WANTING things for her own? Is WANTING Spuke all along would be Buffy's POINT OF MATURITY? Just because Spuke proves to RELIABLE and always by her SIDE? Just because the writers WANT Spuke for her, instead of Angel...instead of others?


You actually made a really, really good point. Why is it that Buffy has to be the one letting go of "chasing after the unattainable"? You can call her attachment to Angel an immature flaw of hers, but why is Spike the solution? Especially in the long-run Spike will still never give her what she really wants which is a future and a normal life? What's worse is the writers actually made her FRIENDS criticize her for that "unattainable love" and how Spike deserved a chance she never gave. That's why S10 isn't about Buffy, but Spike. If S10 was truly about Buffy, it should be about her being independent and letting go of BOTH doomed relationships. That's what most would suit her, in the long run. Instead they're dragging all that out because of fans.

One could argue Spike's "unattainable love" was always being unrequited while Buffy's was circumstance. Unrequited feelings can change easier than circumstance, yes ... but this is supposed to be about BUFFY.

elle2 wrote:
I know you said that you detest the Season 10 storyline. But it seems you don't hate it enough to consider is as a"possibility" for Spuke to end up with Buffy. And that you still makes "CANON sense" of why the writers did that.


I'm only working with what the writers give us. That has no bearing on me hating it any less. I like to find reasons in things, even I can't agree with it. You can't find reason in stupidity or fanservice, but they did at least insert reasons for it in the text. They may be crap reasons and not with integrity, but they're there for you to try to understand how the characters feel. That's what I focus on.

elle2 wrote:
Romancegirl, I hope you still get it by now why B/A should NOT ever compromise their belief for a B/A Tale to be the RIGHTFULLY ENDGAME, in spite of what the current storytellers want us to believe. We HAVE CHOICES. But NOT ONE OF IT is B/S.


elle2 wrote:
That's what the predicament B/A fans are facing now. They have choices, to just treasure WITHIN themselves the B/A Tale...or they keep HOPING and WAITING for a storyteller to FINALLY TELL the B/A Tale they had promised.


elle2 wrote:
The only Stupid thing most of us are guilty, is to WAIT that Joss would KEEP HIS PROMISE in comics, now that he LETS Spukey fans TOOK OVER the storyline.


These quotes confuse me. You're saying we shouldn't compromise B/A as endgame despite all the Spuffiness yet our fanbase are idiots for hoping for that endgame in the comics? Confused

I know you you don't pay attention to the comics and just make fun of it, but say in theory you did. Is your honest opinion that Bangel will never, ever see a comeback, that Joss will just keep toying with both ships inconsistently, or that Spuffy is now the one that will top it all? I don't know what the Bangel fans at large think anymore about the shipping war in these comics or if our ship will ever be focused on again. So I'd really like to hear your honest answer based on all you've heard.

elle2 wrote:
Jaysus...really? If Spike and Angel love Buffy equally that is the only thing that matters? Uh...what about BUFFY? THAT IS why the shipper wars even happened. What SPIKE WANTS is all that counted, as they rooted for him to "get what he wanted" in some "justifiable way" of being hero enough, man enough for her to "awaken" like she was some Sleeping Beauty to all the wonders of this DESERVING guy, there through thick and thin, no soul, chipped, not chipped, ensouled, suffering, bad ass, gone, back and Buffy now SWOONS into all his MATURITY.


If Buffy find happiness with Spike and truly loves him, then it's about her also regardless of the circumstance. People change. Situations changed. Spike's changed. I'm not justifying how their painting Buffy's love for Angel as "unwise" and Spike the more "mature option" when really they're both ridiculous (both vampires, no future, no normal life, etc etc.), but Buffy being with happy Spike is about her too as long as she is truly happy.

sybil wrote:
THAT alone is why Spuffy is just “pathetic.” And I do think those fans know it because Spike is a woobie and has no power to be anything else UNTIL HE DECIDES TO LEARN, TOO. “Sloppy seconds” is all this guy is shown to accept and he feels bad that is all he gets when he KNOWS there really is something better—he saw it with Angel and Buffy, and Buffy remains his ideal BECAUSE she really is “unattainable.” And that is where he remains “stuck.” It’s always a tragedy to seek and want love, but at all the wrong times, or with a person who can’t “see you.”


In what way does Spike still think he's settling for "sloppy seconds"? I'm serious here. Is that really still his issue now? Common sense it probably still is on some level because Spike's insecure like that, but I haven't read all of the S10 comics even though I've extensively looked at reviews and sought out spoilers so this is just a genuine question of mine.

sybil wrote:
And THAT is the problem BETWEEN them. She truly sees him, but she keeps expecting it to ‘turn out differently, THIS TIME. (And that goes for Spike, too, because she doesn’t want to be “pathetic” with a “first love” that CANNOT work out as long as NEITHER actually figures out they are BOTH CURSED. And how to fix it. Which, in plot, keeps sending me into histrionics by that AVOIDANCE to continue to “have adventures” and lust bunnies for fic writers.


You hit on the nail here, sybil. That is exactly my complaint for this season. I can sorta understand Buffy's reasoning for giving up pursuing Angel, but I can't understand how she's "settling" for another relationship that will never last that makes her look just as immature and idiotic. Spike's there for her? Spike's more RELIABLE? Doesn't matter. She's still with someone she can never really be with and that's at this point just plain stupid.

sybil wrote:
And that is why Spuffy is also a failure in all this “it’s gonna be great” expectation with Spike. She NEVER felt HIS love and can’t seem to “muster” it other than through ‘OBLIGATION’. “He DESERVES “IT” (aka me—and I’m lonely, horny, wishful, tired, bored, wanna feel “young,” and anything else that IS NOT what goes on with Angel. And it isn’t always “fantasy sighs and kissy face"


Unless Buffy loves Spike now which I think she does. She may have all the wrong reasons for being with him and not thinking anything about their future really through ... but that doesn't mean she can't love him.
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elle2
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I read reviews of the Buffy/Angel crossover during S10---most of them Spuffy (of course)---and it seemed blatantly clear to me none of them were threatened. They referred to Angel as "first love" or "former love" and Spike "current love". They also stated the comics supported Buffy and Spike being a better fit than Angel and Angel's "realizing" that. Sure, some acknowledged unresolved feelings on Buffy's part for Angel ... but that's all they gave it: unresolved feelings.

They did, however, resent Angel for saying B/S won't last or Spike hasn't changed and that Angel is just "forcing his own flaws on Spike". There may be a little insecurity ... but I think it mostly comes down the fact they just hate Angel.


The x-over issue happened between Aug-Oct 2015. SMG posted on Oct 10, 2015 on social media account a post showing B/A cake with hashtag #NationalAngelFoodCake . And the Spukey fans reacting so fast and even JM suddenly appeared on twitter and asked his fans to follow him. His fans bugged/begged SMG and DB to follow JM and when SMG didn't follow JM right away, the extreme Spukey fans REBUKED SMG that she's being unfair to JM.

The idiocy and arrogancy I was pertaining to is the Spukey fans are "threatened" even if DB and SMG were involved. If they are simply "comfortable" with B/S storyline, why the need to attack SMG on her social media posts?

Can't you see what I'm referring to, romancegirl?!!!

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I never actually thought about it like this, but you may be on to something. No one expected Spuffy to make a comeback. At the time B/A had won. The outrage, rage, and depression leaking out of the Spuffy fans was cataclysmic. S8 made so many people hate Angel and it made the Spike fans/Spuffies just hate him more. They said such awful things, like Angel raped Buffy via Twilight glow and was a twisted megalomaniac for everything he did to her. It was a storm of character assassination claims. There's also the fact they argued all the "love" claims to Angel from Buffy were all just an "after-affect" of the Twilight glow and therefore didn't "count". To this day, they still believe that. The damage control was real.

Point is, Angel's image was in tatters and then set on fire after S8. The Spuffy fans/Spike fans were incredibly vocal about this and pushed S/B. Now I'm not sure if it was always Joss's intention for Angel look terrible in the eyes of everyone (including the characters) to boast S/B ... but I don't have trouble believing the anti-Angel affect in the fandom must've done SOMETHING. The hate Angel garnered after all that was truly was volcanic.


Romancegirl, you really ACTUALLY MISSED my point and that was to show you THE DIFFERENCE of our fanbase as opposed to B/S fans and i used the Season 8 scenario to HIGHLIGHT how B/S fans WERE VOCAL to throw EVERY SHADES against Buffy/Angel much more to Angel.

If Joss INTENTIONALLY made Twilight to DESTROY Angel's image, then he is really a jerk and really biased towards Spukey fans. On the second thought, if Joss really wanted to destroy Angel, Christos Gage won't be hired to make Angel "redeemable" on Angel & Faith. Though, in my PERSONAL VIEW, the twilight arc really destroyed Angel's image.

But since you are seemingly presenting how B/S fans "VIEWED" Twilight arc as a MEANS to make B/S happened, then, the B/S fans SHOULD ALSO be reminded the AFFIRMATION and CONFIRMATION of B/A love. And Mind RAPE was actually debunked by the writers and editors themselves. If you happen to converse with a B/S fan who REPEATEDLY say it was MIND RAPE, I advise you to LOOK at the OLD INTERVIEWS by the writers.

Maybe if you did, you would find explanation how the things turned 360' from Season 8 to Season 10, coming from the comical writers themselves.

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... *sighs* You're right, okay? You're right. Spike is becoming Angel. It started ever since S9, when Spike wanted Buffy have "a normal relationship" and Faith kept saying "Spike's more like Angel" now. They even had Buffy make idiotic claims like she fell for the same man twice. She LITERALLY considers Angel and Spike the same person. Spike's just "the Angel she can be with". AND I RESENT IT TOO. Spike's quite literally becomes Angel's replacement by Buffy's side. His personality is no longer as selfish, insensitive, or uncaring. No, he's SELFLESS now. He cares about other people more and FEELS INFINITE REMORSE. Which would great except we have Angel for that. Spike was supposed to stay the insensitive, selfish jackass he was in Atv S5 even with a soul because that was his characterization. That's what made him different from Angel. Maturing Spike? Developing Spike? All that does is turn him into Angel. And the worst part is the writers justify it, yet still try and say Spike is a better choice for Buffy than Angel. Wtf??

So yes, Elle, I know you're right. It'd be stupid to hope this Spuffy break-up will be any different than Bangel's. I JUST HATE IT SO MUCH. On a personal level, they're taking away everything that was special about Angel and B/A while on a writer's level, they're not only repeating the same story but also making their heroine look immature. It's the worst of both worlds, fan and writer.


Self-explanatory. Thank god, you finally did see it.

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In what way do I come off as a Spuffy fan? Because I don't hate Spike? Because I consider other possibilities? That's hardly proof I'm Spuffy and I made it abundantly clear time and time again I'm not. If I was, I certainly wouldn't be here debating with you or still hoping for B/A's future. I also made it clear of the B/S in S10 in any way whatsoever. It shouldn't have happened.


you forgot to include this:

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But since you keep saying that you are MORE a Buffy fan, then you the first thing you would have thought is to STOP HER from being a just "trophy" passing around between two fanbase.

so...if you are REALLY a Buffy fan...how can YOU STILL say that "IT MAKES SENSE for writers to give in on the demands of B/S ship"?


I was giving you the likely perspectives three POV's, as a B/A fan, as a B/S fan....and as a Buffy fan.

You have to remember that the shippers' war has been in existence since 2001.The mark of a B/S fan is NOT not hating Spuke. That's seems so shallow. It's like saying that the mark of an Anti-Christ is that he doesn't like Christ. I understand very well that many Btvs fans who are B/A fans who are fond of Spuke as a character the way I love Cordelia as I am an Ats fan.

SO....

The GENERAL qualities of B/S fans, (aside from being annoying and stupid) is that They kept saying that THEY LOVE Buffy and yet they don't mind her loneliness during Season 6 and they DON'T SEE anyone with her aside from Spuke. THEY COULD RATIONALIZE EVERYTHING ABOUT "HOW B/S IS THE BEST SHIP" and yet they failed to see Buffy being with someone else. Look at their ARGUMENTS, you would see "how" and "what" are the bulks of those arguments. THEY ARE ALL FOR THE GLORY of Spuke. That they ONLY see that Buffy DESERVES Spuke because "Spuke is blah,blah,blah...."and Spuke DID this for her"...hence, Spuke SHOULD BE the ONE for Buffy.

Without even THINKING what Buffy WANTS for herself. They ONLY Think that Buffy is just this lonely girl who only wants to be loved and be loved in return. TO BE LOVED is NOT Buffy's goal, for SHE IS LOVED. That's Spuke's GOAL which Spukies fans WANTED to reflect their idol's "EXISTENCE" to Buffy so they COULD FIND SENSE that THEY ARE MEANT FOR EACH OTHER..

They don't see that Buffy WANTS TO LIVE FREE. Buffy WANTS TO LIVE LIKE A NORMAL GIRL. Buffy WANTS TO LIVE LONGER. Buffy WANTS a Love that SHE LOVES. Buffy wants "HERSELF wanting WHAT she WANTS for herself".

And we B/A fans hoping, that even if SHE GREW OLD and TIRED of LIVING, there's still this TEENAGE Girl inside her who does what's right even if it means tragedy in her life. And even if she was still the Girl who still to FIGURE things about herself and have to think about what lies ahead before SHE IS DONE BAKING and before SHE WOULD FINALLY HAD SOME TIMES, (years if ever,) TO MAKE HER REALIZE WHAT SHE REALLY WANTS, we hope to see, that she would NOT be too tired TO GIVE UP ON HER "IDEAL" DREAMS.

The B/S fans like Buffy to see that Spuke WOULD be the ONE who WOULD GIVE everything Buffy wants...hence, SPUKE WOULD BE THAT "GUY" THE ONE BUFFY DESERVES. That Spuke would be "THE IDEAL" Lover to Buffy as she was to him.

And with this, I use sybil's quote:

sybil wrote:
I was once upon a time bowled over by Buffy and Angel both. Now? I am still because I never got “the story” I was promised and that is the ONLY RANT I have. “Spuke” IS impossible as the “end game.” A lover was NOT the promise of the story.


William's goal is to be "THAT LOVER" every girl wants. That essence was the MAIN thing in Spuke's quality as his fans called him a "hopelessly romantic". Though, if Spukey fans would really look into it, Spuke has just a simple mama's boy issue in which he wanted someone to "babysit" him and never really be responsible for every actions he made.

Buffy loves Angel. Angel loves Buffy. They had a one of kind love that BOTH of THEM knew they had for each other. AND YET THEY ALSO KNOW THAT THEY BOTH HAVE TO LET GO OF EACH OTHER...to make each other INDEPENDENT and GROW UP. A lover is just a secondary goal compared to the priority of them to become INDEPENDENT individuals.

INDIVIDUALITY, ADULTHOOD, FREEDOM...those are the PRIORITIES of achieving self-realization. A person can't be TRULY happy with others UNLESS oneself has REALIZED that she's HAPPY for being herself.

NO OTHER MAN or WOMAN could teach one's self-realization, but oneself's only.

Angel learned to be independent, more than being isolated. He grew up from being a socio-path. He had friends and a family. But those were taken away from away, at the end of Season 5. He's back from where he was...ALONE.

On the other hand, Buffy's independence and maturity halted after Season 5. On Season 6-7, she became "isolated" from her friends and family and she co-dependent with Spuke as she ALLOWED herself to be in an abusive relationship, where she was damned by someone, and that someone has been able to "grow", and she was "grateful" that he grew during her damnation.

So...romancegirl, how LITTLE you thought of our fanbase if you think that we also like B/S fans who can't see Buffy and Angel HAPPY individually. We want that from them. We ONLY WANT JOSS to tell of a STORY that THEY WOULD FIND THEIR WAY BACK TO EACH OTHER, once they are content about their selves, IN SHORT, she being a cookie dough, and he, being shanshu'ed.



Quote:

It seems the main reason we miscommunicate are because of this:

1). Angel/Angelus and Spike/Soulless Spike are not separate to you. To me, they are.
2). Goes back to #1. You can't understand in any world why I'd accept Buffy being happy with Spike as a Buffy fan because to you Spike souled and soulless are one in the same.
3). You think the fact I've sympathized with Spike in the past and don't blindly hate him relinquishes the fact I'm a Buffy fan.

This is where our divide is. You firmly believe Spike with a soul and without are completely and the totally the same so when you see souled Spike all you're seeing is the abusive soulless version being rewarded. With Angel/Angelus, you believe the same thing ... except to you, Angel was punished by being sent to Hell.

I know you want to be understood ... but so do I. The writers have STATED Angel and Spike against their soulless versions are NOT THE SAME PERSON. The soulless demon is not the human soul. Therefore for you to hold Angel and Spike's crimes against either one of them is completely unfair and irrational no matter how much you may want to. Blaming Spike for anything he did soulless is ridiculous. The Spike now is not the same Spike. That doesn't mean you have to hate him any less, but at least acknowledge that.



On the contrary, our biggest difference, is that I'm not viewing this thing as to whether Angel/Angelus or soullessSpuke/ensouledSpuke are different. I'm VIEWING things ON "HOW" THE SERIES REACHED OUT TO THEIR FANS.

Whether you view their souled/soulless version as mutually exlusive or inclusive with each other, it IS IRRELEVANT as to what HAPPENED and SANCTIONED given when they BOTH COMMITTED their DEMONIC ACTS.

That's why I kept BRINGING up THE SANCTIONS.


That's reason why I keep reminding you of WHAT HAPPENED to Buffy between Season 2 and Season 6, which ironically, most B/S fans also take that as an example to VALIDATE their points of Spuke's greatness compared to Angelus. B/S fans who argued with B/A fans ALWAYS bring up Season 2 Angelus as parallel to what the SEXUAL ASSAULT of Spuke on Season 6. That Angelus was a MURDERER so B/A fans SHOULD NOT HOLD Spuke accountable to the rape scene, because Angelus DID MUCH WORSE at murdering Jenny.

Spuky fans FAILED TO SEE that in spite of Angelus creating havoc in Buffy's lives that BUFFY STILL MANAGED TO "KILL" HIM. And she SENT Angel to hell dimension and BE TORTURED for hundreds of years.

The "soul" separates Angel from Angelus. But they both operate with same body. SO technically speaking, Angel HAD NOT choice but to bear the sanction.Even if on the grounds of "consciousness" Angel DID NOT DESERVE to be punished, the WRITERS still seemed to SHOW what Angel HAD TO ENDURE SUFFERINGS as part of GIVING SANCTIONS. Angel knows that SOMEONE HAD TO PAY, and he knows he had sins to atone for.

The question of whether Angel deserved to be punished for the sins of Angelus, is ALWAYS an interesting debate. And YET the writers ALWAYS made Angel, even in his show, that HE DESERVES TO SUFFER if that would mean TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for the mistakes he HAS DONE.

And that's what I love about Angel's character. Angel is not about being a masochistic or self-flagellating character just like Christos Gage "written". of him on A&F 9. Angel, doesn't think about the curse as the MAIN reason why he suffers. He simply THINKS he DESERVES to suffer and he makes up for it, so he would be forgiven.

FORGIVENESS and REDEMPTION are the main themes of Angel and there's no other character from BtVS who exemplified those OTHER than Angel.

S7 Spuke is NOT the poster of someone who wants "Forgiveness" and "redemption". He's a poster child of someone who has been rejected but resilient to ACHIEVE his goal. Many of his fans or those who sympathized him as the BEST LOVER, for he would DO EVERYTHING to "get the girl". For them HE WAS A MARTYR. Who's been beaten and still managed to stand up, just for the girl he loves...even if the girl WANTS SOMEONE ELSE.

Quote:

As a Buffy fan, I could accept whatever makes Buffy happy because that's what she deserves. I don't want her passed around as trophy either and I don't want her to be someone who doesn't give her a future ... but I won't resent her if she's at least temporarily happy with Spike and Spike loves her. By your logic, Angel must not truly love Buffy because in the S10 crossover he accepted her being with Spike for the same reason. Because she seemed happy.


there are some flies in your logic ointment here, romancegirl.

The Pros.
-First, you say that YOU ACCEPT whatever makes Buffy happy because that's what she deserves.
-Second, you don't want her passed around as trophy.
-Third, you don't want her to be with someone who doesn't give her a future.


I agree with all points. BUT the following are the things you failed to "connect" with my views:

-I won't resent her if she's at least temporarily happy with Spike and Spike loves her.

Romancegirl...haven't you seen that already on Season 7? When Buffy became "soft" with Spuke?

My resentment DOES NOT COME from your simplistic view of my "hate to Spuke". MY RESENTMENT COMES FROM THE FAILURE OF THE WRITERS TO SEE THAT B/S FRIENDSHIP SYMBOLIZES SPUKE'S GLORY OVER BUFFY????

Just when you say you understand things from my point of view but somehow STILL FAILED to get the BIGGER PICTURE, I consider a failure of my part to explain myself. Maybe if I used sybil's quote, you would find sense of it:

sybil wrote:
Buffy does NOT see she is TEACHING THESE PEOPLE THAT IT IS OKAY to CONTINUE to hurt her in her mind and in her present both. And just maybe, SHE has to “cut them loose.” They are LEAVING, anyway! It really is NOT about the abuser. It is about the abused recognizing their own part in allowing that abuse to have power over them when the abuser isn’t even around. NOW she INSISTS on keeping abusers around her because she waits for them to suddenly “wake up” and “get me” and “apologize for THEIR awfulness and ‘CHANGE.”


Romancegirl...I only have limited vocabulary skills. Sybil has lots of them. I highlighted the phrases you may consider about before you ACTUALLY say that "YOU ARE OKAY with Spuke being with Buffy, if HE GIVES her at least a TEMPORARY HAPPINESS, because that's WHAT BUFFY WANTS".

"TEMPORAY HAPPINESS"..."FROM SOMEONE"..."IS WHAT BUFFY WANTS"...

FOR ALL OF THESE YEARS, those are the things you HAVE GOTTEN from Buffy's stories????


No wonder why the FEMALE PROTAGONIST in Twilight, Vampire Diaries and True Blood are VERY much like Buffy who is TORN between TWO LOVERS. Rolling Eyes

Quote:
These quotes confuse me. You're saying we shouldn't compromise B/A as endgame despite all the Spuffiness yet our fanbase are idiots for hoping for that endgame in the comics?


AGAIN MISSED SHOTS for you. I was pertaining to my suggestion for B/A fanbase to "NEVER COMPROMISE" as I also ENCOURAGE B/A fans to UPHOLD and TREASURE B/A as ENDGAME EVEN WITHOUT THE STORYTELLERS FROM THE COMICS.
Isn't that what you also suggest just in case B/A did not get the endgame on comics? So, why are you confused with my statement? Rolling Eyes

Maybe Because you STILL DON'T GET THE ESSENSE OF "the B/A TALE is BIGGER than the STORYTELLERS themselves." All those my "metaphorical" speeches about how an EPIC TALE COULD CONTINUE WITHOUT STORYTELLERS are still a puzzlement. Piece of advice, if you don't get it, don't even try to get it. IT WOULD ONLY CAUSE YOU HEADACHES.

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I know you you don't pay attention to the comics and just make fun of it, but say in theory you did. Is your honest opinion that Bangel will never, ever see a comeback, that Joss will just keep toying with both ships inconsistently, or that Spuffy is now the one that will top it all? I don't know what the Bangel fans at large think anymore about the shipping war in these comics or if our ship will ever be focused on again. So I'd really like to hear your honest answer based on all you've heard.


Romancegirl.....oh...i don't know what else to do about you. YOU STILL DON'T GET. Have YOU REALLY EXPLORED THIS BOARD before posting here or you just SELECTED the topics that talked about Spukies that made you come here.

The answer to your challenge is in the form of a question you may asked yourself:

HAVE YOU NOTICED THOSE B/A FANS AT LARGE who BOTHERED TO COMMENT ABOUT THE COMICS? IS THEIR SILENCE NOT A SIGN FOR YOU NOT TO GET ABOUT THEIR SENTIMENTS ABOUT THE COMICS??????


So, I won't have to go further on your "quote by quote" arguments ,because OBVIOUSLY our brains have in different wavelengths.

Your arguments is REALLY like those of shipper's arguments.

But, sorry, I'm REALLY so tired of Shipper's wars. That's why I'm ELEVATING the arguments INTO HIGHER VALUE of:


WHAT BUFFY MEANS FOR US.


WHAT ANGEL MEANS FOR US.

And as a B/A fan, WHAT Buffy/Angel Tale MEANS FOR US.


Answering those are MORE IMPORTANT to me, as a fan of these characters and their TALE, more than the SHIPPER'S WARS that the comical writers WANT fans like you to ENGAGE with.

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You may be right about this ... but my problem is I'm still hoping. Hoping for things to be better. That'll it will about Buffy again. I'm hoping S10 ends with finding their way back to her if it's supposed to be about adulthood. You lost in faith in that and that's okay, but I haven't. Not yet. Joss still says his favorite character is Buffy.



Geezz...romancegirl... based on the comics premise,if EVER you would have wanted Buffy back again, you SHOULD ASK the writers to KILL spuke if he would be in DANGER in destroying the world. And SHE WOULD CRY HARD this time because SHE SACRIFICED AGAIN, ANOTHER LOVE OF HER LIFE TO SAVE THE WORLD.

IN THIS COMICS, There's no OTHER way to bring "Buffy back" but TO ELIMINATE/DETACH either Spuke or Angel influence in her life. Because that WOULD BE THE TIME that she WOULD BE INDEPENDENT FROM THESE MEN.

And that's the reason I won't be interested in your so called "making sense" of comics, because that means, Joss DID NOT KEEP HIS PROMISE. A B/A fan of me BELIEVES IN THE TALE , romancegirl. Because Buffy and Angel ARE THE LEAD CHARACTERS.

That's not being close-minded, romancegirl. It's SIMPLE COMMON SENSE. They HOLD THE TITULAR NAMES. SO THE STORY IS ABOUT THEM.

SO AGAIN I REPEAT...AGAIN...AND AGAIN....IF THE COMICS IS NOT ABOUT THEM...as an Angel and B/A fan, I WON'T BE INTERESTED with. Of course, the spukies sympathizers can enjoy THEIR STORIES.

BUT I CAN'T COMPROMISE. And I know that SPukies would not want to compromise too. THE MERE FACT THAT THEY HAVE BEEN PESTERING EVEN THE ACTORS, you can TELL that they don't want anything else but SPUKE BEING THE BEST CHARACTER and GETTING BUFFY at the same time.

But still, Spuke IS NOT THE REASON why I WATCHED the TV SERIES.

So, can't you Romancegirl, THE VERY SENSE why the TRUE Buffy, B/A, Angel fans CAN'T COMPROMISE with the comics that TELLS of Spuke TOPPING everyone?

HAVE YOU ACTUALLY KNOWN a REAL Buffy, B/A and Angel fans WHO ACTUALLY LIKE TO SEE SPUKE BE ON TOP OF THE CREAM?????

Romancegirl, Why don't you conduct a poll, to see if ALL of B/A fans here would agree with you!

then I would rest my case.

ETA:

Quote:
What I gathered from interviews was that James Marsters was never a Spuffy fan. He was a Spike fan, not Spuffy fan. He thought their abusive start would be too unforgivable to ever justify. He likes Spike better as a "underdog" character, one who loses. He even interpreted Spike's reaction to Buffy's confession at the end of S7 as a strong moment because it's him acknowledging "she really loves Angel and not him". Of course, this was a long time ago so it's in every possibility he changed his perspective ... but to ship Spuffy? I think a PR team is more to just keep his fans happy.

That said though, it's really no wonder Spike fans have contaminated the S10 writing. Bangel fans have been so quiet, especially since S8. It's a wonder if Joss even knows we still exist anymore when all he gets is the Spuffies.


JM has been a victim of Spukey fanbase. Of course he likes the attention. It would be hypocrite of him not to want the attention especially if only during conventions he is considered as star of his mostly crazy fans. Though as much as he is a Spukey fan, he ALSO COULD NOT ANYMORE RETRACT the things he said pro-B/S. And for me, a spukey fan/ BS fan are really closely related. Though there are spukey fans who really like his character when he was soulless and pre-B/S. I guess, those are the only Spukey fans that I consider as "exemption" from general idiots.

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I really do admire how SMG can keep on enjoying Bangel and blissfully ignore the comics. She may consider them fanfics, but damn is she saving herself a lot less shipper dilemmas than I am.


SMG is THE ONLY ONE WHO UNDERSTANDS Buffy MORE THAN Joss does, IMO. She knows where Buffy stands and what Buffy wants. She CAN'T SEPARATE herself from Buffy BECAUSE SHE GAVE HER UTMOST EMOTIONS TO HER, as evidence by her "breakdowns" during takes of Angelus arcs.

And SMG is the FIRST to deny THAT BTVS is ABOUT LOVESTORY AND ROMANCE. SMG DID NOT like BTVS to be known just as "Lovestory" in spite of her support for B/A. SMG KNEW that Buffy IS MUCH BIGGER than being a romance novel.

That's the reason why Spukies/BS fans attacked her. She denied the ROMANTIC element and yet she SUPPORTS Buffy/Angel. They don't understand that if Buffy would LIKE TO HAVE someone in her LOVELIFE, SMG felt that it is RESERVED for Angel. Isn't it yet she said that EVERYTIME the showrunners INTRODUCED a lover for Buffy, SHE ALWAYS THOUGHT of them as, "HE IS NOT ANGEL".

Another trivia that talks about the stupidity of B/S fans: Isn't the Spukies/B.S. fans ATTACKED her when they find out that SMG might have "stopped" the publication of Btvs Tarrot cards where one of the cards SHOWED Buffy in chains & naked with Spuke????

Geez...if that was true, I WOULD REALLY LIKE TO GIVE SMG A BIG HUG!

And that's why, I am grateful that SHE DOES NOT CARE about the comics. She's A B/A FAN...who DOES NOT COMPROMISE her BELIEF for the B/A TALE, IN SPITE OF THE STUPIDITY OF THE COMICS.


And you can consider her, romancegirl, as one of those B/A fans at large, WHO DOES NOT CARE about the comics.


Last edited by elle2 on Tue Apr 05, 2016 4:53 pm; edited 5 times in total
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sybil
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

See? All you are talking about with regard to Buffy is relationship to Spike or Angel and that is NOT the POINT of the story, even if it may interest FANS or be some “end game.” It isn’t even, for me, the only option she has for the NEXT STORY, as far as her love life” goes. In fact, it is the very problem with Angel. He is unable to accept the real cost of death: alone forever, and no idea what life is for, (there is none, it’s absurd) or how to “create” the willingness to find a purpose he can actually believe will last forever. (Since Buffy can’t—she’s mortal and hiis mortality may come but ‘not IN time—vampires exist OUTSIDE of time. And if Buffy dies, where does his ‘true, pure love” come from? God? He only has his * belief * that God will send him to hell, or “somehow” God will grant mercy, for no other reason than “it is needed” as Giles said, ‘Not deserved.” And THAT is the story of the CHRIST and HOW to “end the curse of “sin” and ‘illusion’. It also works for the atheist, as it MUST be from WITHIN. And I call this “the union of opposites” in both “engage/love” of male/ female principle, in one does this work, WITHIN. How to be born again, brand new, in ANY moment that will “be” inside and outside of time, aka “the moment”, as it is described to come to God, as a child, who knows his father’s face, *( “ to know what to see”) * and takes the “leap of faith” the Father will catch him, embrace him, in the world of his open heart and open arms, with the same ecstatic joy and pure love. Heaven.

Who says she will actually CHOOSE Angel or Spike in that NEXT STORY? Well, the narrative USED to be very clear about this. The comics would point out that Buffy is “making the same mistake” in seeking the exact same “impossible IMMORTAL characteristic about “the lover” and this really has to do with death, as the “floor board” of the narrative that actually is consistent.

It is the same “mystical union” of material and spirit, that makes EVERY fan want to see the culmination of the same thing for their favorite couple ( coupling; and I think that is actually the means regarding the curse for both partners I DO prefer, regarding the “curse”, as it is the form shown, is always “aborted.” As are most “what if” scenarios in which the “work” hasn’t been completed (and that means cost is NOT the “end game” but ‘consequence” is—and psychologically, a lot of stuff hasn’t any, as the drive to “make sense” of our own “stories” also doesn’t always “make sense” in the form the psyche generates.

I don’t think the Spuffy fan paid ANY attention to the fact that what Spike did in season seven to ACHIEVE the “breaking of his vampire state” was to BE love: the twin flame as consuming and consumed. But the important thing in HIS story, was that he did it BY DOING NOTHING. He had to STOP “doing” and being ANYTHING to Buffy: she believed in HIM, and “LET IT BE”. (Notice Angel’s finale ends with him, having NONE of what he thought he needed to ENGAGE: his human family, or Buffy, or guides in Whistler, Doyle, or Cordy. He had the half things, just like him, as his ‘psychological support system. The tanist brother and childe, who is “just like him,” the idealist and the cynic, and the half God, ALL “becoming.”

Further, on BTVS, when Spike told her to “go on’ and HE let go, that is when Buffy danced over the skulls,--she is “engaged” and she is the creatrix of power of life and death (as is the myth of Kali) as she joins “all the many “selves” her slayer sisters, to kill EVIL that makes one feel Less, the evil that makes one feel flattered and fooled (from NEEDINESS, and one’s own hope for “the happy ending”, not love aka “superior/inferior”) and to be targeted as weak/prey and to be deceived, destroyed and killed: “the vampire”—the evil that feeds on LIFE. Her weaon and her world come from the unknown, and the darkness, but are not SOURCED in darkness, but in WISDOM. THAT sharpens the blade, that is the power to wield as the guardian and guide of the self, the slayer. (which, BTW, is also called the dark god of male principle, as is Buffy’s story, in ‘flipped over’ format, for this “feminist icon” that confounded the “assumptions” of a biological female in society. Hence, she destroys “institutions.’

Meanwhile, Spike laughed, (at the edge of death) and gained his unity of body and soul as the “means” to HIS true nature, and gained his own illumination. (shanshu) And he did it ALONE. In the comics a similar myth was shown that ‘paradise” was achieved WITH Angel (mind and body in union aka the means of zen and tantra), BUT the destruction of the world, STOPPED Buffy from conquering the world of childhood, even as she both ‘broke its magicks” and she also lost he r”guiding father” again. Now that would be fine, if she internalized the lessons of the father, but she, obviously has not because she merrily decies Spike is her guide and her guardian and her comfort and she gives up heHERO OWN AGENCY, at every single turn of season nine. She is being shown Sppike and she “chooses” WHAT? ?? TELL ME.

You said it. THE SAME GUY. That S WHY Angel wasn’t upset with Spike, (which would just NEVER happen in any characterization of Angel I have seen before this). Buffy is still seeking that normal with the guy who is now ANGEL, with sex and actually ‘being there.” It is still Buffy who is deciding who and what she will or won’t share; and this is STILL with vampires. IMMORTAL soul, but STILL immortal flesh, included.

THAT story of seeking “equilibrium” within the ‘divisions of the psyche” is the story of ACHIEVING “normal,” with the full understanding that “Sunnydale” world or entire landscape of portal jumping being shown as “the exterior world” will be fully INTERNALIZED.

ALL humans have a slayer within from birth. SHE drives the instinct to suck and to cling (and not fall) as an infant. SHE drives the infant to search out “the unknown,” including that of the body, a parent’s face, and all the rest of the unknown FOREVER, and to engage that struggle, always, adapting by learning. And that means (according to Joss) life is pain. But if one refuses to LEARN, one will SUFFER. And that is called HELL.


Te “final death” for Buffy is not merely ‘going off into another portal called “adulthood.” That conceit is a cheat on DEATH, as she can merely “regress” right back into it. Portal jumping has to be shown as “INTERNAL psyche or dream. And frankly, Buffy and
ATS both are not about what ‘they deserve” or what “fan service” alone dictates and “relationship” in the love arnea is simply not all any of us experience, unless we insist that is our perception of “knowing what to see” that counts. THAT defines Buffy in a narrow light of craving love, searching through 7 billion and counting souls to define herself by another person. And THAT will never work or last, as that is a role that gets thread worn, as nothing else never needs to be learned other than ‘solving logistics.’

Which is why “fiction “ends” and stresses of time, distance, jobs, kids, other (failed) romances, always circle the same ‘human craving” for a romance to be the “REAL DEAL”—romantic as in ideal, romantic in “the one,” romantic in “world building” to SERVE the only point, of achieving the romance itself BETWEEN people, who finally ‘learn’ what they “knew hey needed, all along: each other.

Spike is “what I’m gonna do for ya”; and Angel offers, at least some truth: NEITHER of us is “done,” but we can WIN “normal,” while actually BUILDING it is what Spike or Xander offers. HOWEVER, to me, the world of love with the beloved, smacks of “heaven” in “hell” and SELF acutalization/Normal” means both are actually “the world” and what it offers, in whatever one chooses to perceive, change and learn, in the story of “becoming”

BTW, in some fairness, regarding the Angel hate. It wasn’t all about Buffy. THEY both became the same guy in her mind FOR A REASON neither “side” liked. And we have all complained of Sainthood” at the cost of “mustache twirler” in this story before.

Angel WATCHED the murder of slayers and he TORTURED the girl and her sisters for over a year. Spike shows upo on a freaking SPACE SHIP” to deal with the notin of dual time lines and future world building/planning/destruction. Angel tortured Riley, he did such unspeakable stuff based upon delusion—even though ATF comics showed exactly what he would ‘win” if he won his true shanshu and the cost of it and he was trying to AVOID that. But hey.

If you think that Buffy loves Spike now” is ALL that she asks of life and is enough to “sttle” her world view, then I am a fearful child, who had to worry about healing myself, about a child to have or not, to raise and feed and educate, and to serve a family incapable of serving itself, as well as my own, as ‘mature” then you are a woman who doesn’t have “Buffy’s problems” or normal one’s either, as “some narrator” isn’t going to come along and “drop a plot” into my lap to do the “work around” to a grand romantic climax. This girl has to consider when she starts “building that future” of normal. A a state of ‘comfort or security or positive appreciation of another is simply not the love of peace and ecstasy the human SOUL craves to know is TRUE LOVE, that just might be God, or devotion to service and not a person at all. Buffy knows it. Spike knows it. AND ANGEL MOST CERTAINLY KNOWS IT WITH BUFFY in ‘knowing what to see.’ And you know it, too.


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jr24tw
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 05, 2016 7:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:
I read reviews of the Buffy/Angel crossover during S10---most of them Spuffy (of course)---and it seemed blatantly clear to me none of them were threatened. They referred to Angel as "first love" or "former love" and Spike "current love". They also stated the comics supported Buffy and Spike being a better fit than Angel and Angel's "realizing" that. Sure, some acknowledged unresolved feelings on Buffy's part for Angel ... but that's all they gave it: unresolved feelings.

They did, however, resent Angel for saying B/S won't last or Spike hasn't changed and that Angel is just "forcing his own flaws on Spike". There may be a little insecurity ... but I think it mostly comes down the fact they just hate Angel.

Seems to be a little more complicated than that. Sure Angel gave Buffy (and Spike) his blessing or what have you, but his closing conversation with Willow reinforced yet again why vampire/mortal just won't work. Vampires don't really change due to their immortality (even if they get character transplants like Angel in S8 and Spike in S10) while a mortal's life constantly does.

And B/S this Season really seems to have been fraught with problems with a side of boring. The constant doubts Spike has about Buffy for one. Buffy, for the 100th time, thinking about a normal life. Hey blondie slayer, newsflash, you have known since S3 that there is NO normal life with a vampire. /facepalm

And I won't mention, yet again, the character contortions to make Spike more like Angel or Buffy whitewashing soulles Spike.

What I also saw was a grown up Angel in regards to Buffy. He could have said what he told Willow to Buffy but he didn't. He's letting Buffy make her own choices and she has to deal with the consequences. Instead of Spike who is sure what Buffy thinks/feels without talking to her and that's where all the distrust comes from. How funny that Spike is the one who doesn't think it's the right relationship for him now that he's had Buffy. I have given up hope that anything is ever about Buffy again, who is really the one who should have come to that conclusion Seasons ago. But she only serves as a vehicle for other peoples stories.

B/A has been pretty much put to rest for good. Looks like this Season it's B/S turn. I'm at peace with that, really. I just don't care about Buffy enough anymore (thanks writers of the show and comics) as a character. I'm glad for Angel more than anything. If I didn't know Joss and co. would completely mess it up I'd actually go with elle2's A/F ship, but when Angel turns human. Because Faith is more mature than Buffy and she is well aware that human/vampire is a no go. But I love the A/F friendship too much to see it destroyed for romance sake.
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RomancexGirl
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 2:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elle2 wrote:

The idiocy and arrogancy I was pertaining to is the Spukey fans are "threatened" even if DB and SMG were involved. If they are simply "comfortable" with B/S storyline, why the need to attack SMG on her social media posts?


Not all Spuffy fans know about the comics, first of all. But say any of these attackers did, then I truly don't where this rage is coming from. Buffy choose Spike, not Angel so they should be happy. Maybe it's because they know deep down their ship became too fanservice-y and flowery and hate the execution. If I was a Spuffy fan, I know I would.

That doesn't give them the right though to take it out on Sarah. She'll ship what she wants and do what she wants.

elle2 wrote:

On the second thought, if Joss really wanted to destroy Angel, Gage won't be hired to make Angel "redeemable" on Angel & Faith. Though, in my PERSONAL VIEW, the twilight arc really destroyed Angel's image.


Joss himself called of Angel's choice as Twilight "unforgivable", but it was admirable how even though he lost everything and ruined so much he still tried to do the right thing. Obviously Joss meant to bring Angel to a "low point" regardless if it was Spuffy influenced or not.

Joss has been punishing Angel for the Twilight choice for two whole seasons. He did try to "redeem" him in S9, but the echoes are still there. Angel is still mostly alone, lost Buffy, and now has to deal with her dating Spike. Joss is making Angel suffer because he wants him to suffer. IMO I think Angel's been punished long enough for Twilight, but clearly Joss doesn't think so.

elle2 wrote:
But since you are seemingly presenting how B/S fans "VIEWED" Twilight arc as a MEANS to make B/S happened, then, the B/S fans SHOULD ALSO be reminded the AFFIRMATION and CONFIRMATION of B/A love.


They disregarded it. Buffy and Angel were influenced by Twilight to have sex even though they still chose. All the B/A love claims were brushed off as "side-effects" of the Twilight influence and had no bearing on Angel still being "the love of her life", even though from the writers' words that was clearly not the case. Only the more mature Spuffies would admit it was sincere, but to them all the Twilight arc is was B/A's last hurrah proving why they could never work before sinking it for good.

elle2 wrote:

They kept saying that THEY LOVE Buffy and yet they don't mind her loneliness during Season 6 and they DON'T SEE anyone with her aside from Spuke.[/b] THEY COULD RATIONALIZE EVERYTHING ABOUT "HOW B/S IS THE BEST SHIP" and yet they failed to see Buffy being with someone else. Look at their ARGUMENTS, you would see "how" and "what" are the bulks of those arguments. THEY ARE ALL FOR THE GLORY of Spuke. That they ONLY see that Buffy DESERVES Spuke because "Spuke is blah,blah,blah...."and Spuke DID this for her"...hence, Spuke SHOULD BE the ONE for Buffy.


The Spuffies I've conversed with have never tried to justify the destructive S6 relationship. Mostly they're just intrigued by it's grit and it's darkness, how real it was about all the unhealthiness and it could still go from that to something "healthier". They like their development. They don't like Bangel because their relationship's more innocent (or using their favorite phrase, "head in the clouds") and was just instant love. Can't share that taste, but to each their own. As long as they never excuse S6 as some beautiful, angsty love story and see it for what it really was .

elle2 wrote:
Without even THINKING what Buffy WANTS for herself. They ONLY Think that Buffy is just this lonely girl who only wants to be loved and be loved in return. TO BE LOVED is NOT Buffy's goal, for SHE IS LOVED. That's Spuke's GOAL which Spukies fans WANTED to reflect their idol's "EXISTENCE" to Buffy so they COULD FIND SENSE that THEY ARE MEANT FOR EACH OTHER..

They don't see that Buffy WANTS TO LIVE FREE. Buffy WANTS TO LIVE LIKE A NORMAL GIRL. Buffy WANTS TO LIVE LONGER. Buffy WANTS a Love that SHE LOVES. Buffy wants "HERSELF wanting WHAT she WANTS for herself".

And we B/A fans hoping, that even if SHE GREW OLD and TIRED of LIVING, there's still this TEENAGE Girl inside her who does what's right even if it means tragedy in her life. And even if she was still the Girl who still to FIGURE things about herself and have to think about what lies ahead before SHE IS DONE BAKING and before SHE WOULD FINALLY HAD SOME TIMES, (years if ever,) TO MAKE HER REALIZE WHAT SHE REALLY WANTS, we hope to see, that she would NOT be too tired TO GIVE UP ON HER "IDEAL" DREAMS.


Thank you for saying this. Smile You're so right about what you said about Buffy and what we're hoping for her end. One of the reasons I don't ship Spuffy is because Spike's one-dimensional. Love, love, love. That's his character. Buffy is so much more than that and cares about so much than that and just wants freedom. I don't think Spike ever sat down and asked himself why he ever does anything without going to his default which is love. Buffy is a character with purpose. Too much purpose to be restricted to that. And that's why I ship her with Angel.

Funny how Buffy's story was never supposed to be entirely about love but the second Spike enters the picture, that's all she's become. At least as of S10. Good thing SMG doesn't follow the comics because seeing that would be her worst nightmare.

elle2 wrote:
The B/S fans like Buffy to see that Spuke WOULD be the ONE who WOULD GIVE everything Buffy wants...hence, SPUKE WOULD BE THAT "GUY" THE ONE BUFFY DESERVES. That Spuke would be "THE IDEAL" Lover to Buffy as she was to him.


Spuffy has always been a ship founded by Spike fans. They may like Buffy, but most of them like Spike more. That is just a fundamental truth. Most Bangel fans are also Angel fans. And that really is what's so pointless about these shipping wars. It's just Spike vs. Angel. A rivalry ship war echoing their actual rivalry. They fight and make each other look bad to prove who's the "better man". Buffy is usually forgotten---consistently---regardless of who she's with, what is canon, or who she feels more for. Again, that is also a fact. Spuffies may tend to be more obnoxious and a frequent abuser of that, but Bangelers have also been guilty of this from time to time.

elle2 wrote:
Buffy loves Angel. Angel loves Buffy. They had a one of kind love that BOTH of THEM knew they had for each other. AND YET THEY ALSO KNOW THAT THEY BOTH HAVE TO LET GO OF EACH OTHER...to make each other INDEPENDENT and GROW UP. A lover is just a secondary goal compared to the priority of them to become INDEPENDENT individuals.

INDIVIDUALITY, ADULTHOOD, FREEDOM...those are the PRIORITIES of achieving self-realization. A person can't be TRULY happy with others UNLESS oneself has REALIZED that she's HAPPY for being herself.

NO OTHER MAN or WOMAN could teach one's self-realization, but oneself's only.


Again, this is all why I ship Bangel. BECAUSE of this message: independence, sacrifice, reality. Buffy and Angel needed to let go of each other so they could grow and gain life experiences before reuniting stronger than ever as couple after all their separate journeys. That is adulthood because it brings forth a new B/A. A more mature, healthy, deep relationship with insight and wisdom. That's why I hate the S10 writers so much for considering them a "immature" relationship. Maybe in the early seasons pre-S3, but that's the past. If they would just give them another chance and allow them to reacquaint each other, then they'd be an incredibly mature and adult relationship. Much more than current Spuffy.

elle2 wrote:
On the other hand, Buffy's independence and maturity halted after Season 5. On Season 6-7, she became "isolated" from her friends and family and she co-dependent with Spuke as she ALLOWED herself to be in an abusive relationship, where she was damned by someone, and that someone has been able to "grow", and she was "grateful" that he grew during her damnation.


You're right. In those last 2 seasons, Buffy's story was sacrificed for Spike. Even in S7 they completely tore apart her relationships and filled it with distrust just so Spike could be her "white knight" and anchor. The ONLY ONE SHE TRUSTED. But the thing is Buffy did reclaim her independence in the S7 finale by her cookie dough speech ... the problem is the comics completely stripped that away because of instead keeping up with that, they just isolated her even further in S8/S9's and made her go straight back to "I can't hold down a relationship = must be something wrong with me" mentality. And S10? Still the same. Spike's there to feed her insecurities.

elle2 wrote:
So...romancegirl, how LITTLE you thought of our fanbase if you think that we also like B/S fans who can't see Buffy and Angel HAPPY individually. We want that from them. We ONLY WANT JOSS to tell of a STORY that THEY WOULD FIND THEIR WAY BACK TO EACH OTHER, once they are content about their selves, IN SHORT, she being a cookie dough, and he, being shanshu'ed.


I take back my words then because I want the same.

elle2 wrote:
The "soul" separates Angel from Angelus. But they both operate with same body. SO technically speaking, Angel HAD NOT choice but to bear the sanction.Even if on the grounds of "consciousness" Angel DID NOT DESERVE to be punished, the WRITERS still seemed to SHOW what Angel HAD TO ENDURE SUFFERINGS as part of GIVING SANCTIONS. Angel knows that SOMEONE HAD TO PAY, and he knows he had sins to atone for.


That moment was about Buffy though. She had no choice but to kill Angel because it was the only way to stop Acathla from swallowing the world. She never would've done it anyway else. It was meant to show how strong and self-sacrificing she was. It didn't have anything to do with "punishing" someone for what Angelus did. Unless you think that was also a motive from the writers, to punish Angel, not just make Buffy look noble?

elle2 wrote:
The question of whether Angel deserved to be punished for the sins of Angelus, is ALWAYS an interesting debate. And YET the writers ALWAYS made Angel, even in his show, that HE DESERVES TO SUFFER if that would mean TAKING RESPONSIBILITY for the mistakes he HAS DONE.

And that's what I love about Angel's character. Angel is not about being a masochistic or self-flagellating character just like Christos Gage "written". of him on A&F 9. Angel, doesn't think about the curse as the MAIN reason why he suffers. He simply THINKS he DESERVES to suffer and he makes up for it, so he would be forgiven.


That's also what I also find more compelling about Angel's stories. Regardless of his crimes souled or soulless, they've always been real with it. Angel's mistakes never go unforgotten and he's sufficiently punished for them. He thinks he deserves it, but his desire to be better and redeem himself keeps going. Spike, in contrast, is like the fandom's kicked puppy we all need to sympathize with. Everything he does is either ignored, forgotten, and or totally downplayed even by the characters. The writers treat Spike like a child while Angel is treated like a man. Angel makes mistakes, he gets punished. ALWAYS. I can't say the same for Spike.

That said tho, I don't A&F S9 was saying Angel had nothing to be sorry over. He was punished throughout it after all and he still thought he deserved it. He still does. It was fairly consistent with the show.

elle2 wrote:

My resentment DOES NOT COME from your simplistic view of my "hate to Spuke". MY RESENTMENT COMES FROM THE FAILURE OF THE WRITERS TO SEE THAT B/S FRIENDSHIP SYMBOLIZES SPUKE'S GLORY OVER BUFFY????


This I can understand. Because for you and sybil, you're looking at the symbolism. That's understandable, if it has nothing to do with the soul debate or dislike of Spike. But I simply can't share it. For me, all that matters is that Spike and soulless Spike are different people and Buffy isn't with her abuser. You say it's irrelevant, but not to me. I won't be frothing at the mouth over that, at least in the context of the characters. The message though ... that's different. I agree Spuffy sends a bad message to fans. Turning an abusive relationship into a healthy, official one is just wrong and unrealistic, soul or no soul.

elle2 wrote:
"TEMPORAY HAPPINESS"..."FROM SOMEONE"..."IS WHAT BUFFY WANTS"...

FOR ALL OF THESE YEARS, those are the things you HAVE GOTTEN from Buffy's stories????


Blame the comic writers, not me. They're the ones that made Buffy's story in S10 completely revolving around romantic relationships rather than other aspects of adulthood. The writers deny it, but it's obvious. They're also the ones that made Buffy make stupid, poor sex/love life decisions based on loneliness and insecurities in S8 instead of letting her get over that like she SEEMED to in the S7 finale. Buffy was never supposed to be just a bunch of love stories. There were so many other themes and messages to it, particularly in Buffy's character. It's not my fault that that's what the comics turned it into.

elle2 wrote:
I was pertaining to my suggestion for B/A fanbase to "NEVER COMPROMISE" as I also ENCOURAGE B/A fans to UPHOLD and TREASURE B/A as ENDGAME EVEN WITHOUT THE STORYTELLERS FROM THE COMICS.
Isn't that what you also suggest just in case B/A did not get the endgame on comics? So, why are you confused with my statement? Rolling Eyes


Sorry. I think I kinda do get what you're saying now which is good advice. Regardless of whether or not the storytellers tell their story again, we should still honor B/A and what made it perfect endgame (even if that means disregarding the comics). I do still hope for it to be official, but as a fan of a Whedonverse series you kinda have to stop expecting "happily ever afters".

elle2 wrote:

HAVE YOU NOTICED THOSE B/A FANS AT LARGE who BOTHERED TO COMMENT ABOUT THE COMICS? IS THEIR SILENCE NOT A SIGN FOR YOU NOT TO GET ABOUT THEIR SENTIMENTS ABOUT THE COMICS??????


Of course it's crossed my mind. The point is it's not comforting. I like to talk to other Bangels not just to share love and viewpoints, but also to express doubts and if there's any form of hope for them. Those are all aspects of being a shipper. Bangel doesn't need to happen again for us to love it, but I always wanted it to. But now I realize from your response it doesn't matter. I know what I think ... which is I don't know what to think. I'll just stick to my previous approach which is waiting it all out and seeing what happens. No point theorizing anything right now.

elle2 wrote:
Your arguments is REALLY like those of shipper's arguments.


Yes ... because I am a shipper. I wouldn't be here if I wasn't. Of course I worry about the state of my ship or if it'll ever happen again if Joss continues to call these comics "canon". That's just a natural reflex for many of finding an OTP in a ship war. But I also see the importance of what you like to debate over and am fine with those topics because I care about those also. Pairings are so much more than who wins and that's the meaning behind them.

elle2 wrote:
And that's the reason I won't be interested in your so called "making sense" of comics, because that means, Joss DID NOT KEEP HIS PROMISE. A B/A fan of me BELIEVES IN THE TALE , romancegirl. Because Buffy and Angel ARE THE LEAD CHARACTERS.

That's not being close-minded, romancegirl. It's SIMPLE COMMON SENSE. They HOLD THE TITULAR NAMES. SO THE STORY IS ABOUT THEM.

SO AGAIN I REPEAT...AGAIN...AND AGAIN....IF THE COMICS IS NOT ABOUT THEM...as an Angel and B/A fan, I WON'T BE INTERESTED with. Of course, the spukies sympathizers can enjoy THEIR STORIES.

But still, Spuke IS NOT THE REASON why I WATCHED the TV SERIES.

So, can't you Romancegirl, THE VERY SENSE why the TRUE Buffy, B/A, Angel fans CAN'T COMPROMISE with the comics that TELLS of Spuke TOPPING everyone?


... Y'know what? You're right. There are so many things wrong with these comics. Many of us have covered it extensively yet Joss still calls it "canon". Why am I finding "reasons" in this horrible writing? Why am I accepting these "canon" standards for Buffy that involved regressing her, making a tool to Spike's story, and making everything about Spike? Why am I "settling" for these lower standards when she deserves so much better? Why am I still dealing with these recycled plots, fan corruption, fanservice, characters making the same mistakes, characters becoming another character and being "okay" with that? WHY AM I STILL INVESTING IN THESE BUFFY AND ANGEL COMICS AT ALL WHEN THEY'RE NO LONGER ABOUT THEM??

That's it. I'm disgusted. I should never have tolerated any of this kind of writing for Buffy. If it's not about her ... if Spike/Spuffy fans have contaminated everything ... then there's really no point for me to take any of this seriously. I was here for Buffy and when it's not about Buffy, the series die with it. That's what these comics are. That's why so many people don't like them, even neutral fans. There's no heart in it anymore. They are practically fanfic-writing.

Thanks, Elle2, for giving me that epiphany. You solved all my stress and pairing fears. I officially don't care anymore about the bad writing or if they even they GIVE B/A an chance. It's a waste of time caring. If the writers don't care, then neither should we. I think from now on I'll just keep up a casual interest, like reading the comics is reading fanfics because with the writing you can't tell the difference. There's still a chance for things to get better ... but right now it isn't and I'm not gonna waste my time giving a damn about something that clearly forgot what Buffy was all about. She deserves better than this.

elle2 wrote:

JM has been a victim of Spukey fanbase. Of course he likes the attention. It would be hypocrite of him not to want the attention especially if only during conventions he is considered as star of his mostly crazy fans. Though as much as he is a Spukey fan, he ALSO COULD NOT ANYMORE RETRACT the things he said pro-B/S. And for me, a spukey fan/ BS fan are really closely related. Though there are spukey fans who really like his character when he was soulless and pre-B/S. I guess, those are the only Spukey fans that I consider as "exemption" from general idiots.


JM wasn't a Spuffy fan. I believe him when he said that ... but most of his fans are so of course he's going to feed them. Doesn't mean he means it, but if he said the opposite (especially now) I'm pretty sure he'd just piss off his entire fanbase.

jr24tw wrote:
Seems to be a little more complicated than that. Sure Angel gave Buffy (and Spike) his blessing or what have you, but his closing conversation with Willow reinforced yet again why vampire/mortal just won't work. Vampires don't really change due to their immortality (even if they get character transplants like Angel in S8 and Spike in S10) while a mortal's life constantly does.


Gage clarified that wasn't him talking through the characters, but just the POV of the characters. It was just a theory, not pure fact and it in his words will "probably never be confirmed". Immortals can or can't change. It depends on your perspective.

elle2 wrote:
What I also saw was a grown up Angel in regards to Buffy. He could have said what he told Willow to Buffy but he didn't. He's letting Buffy make her own choices and she has to deal with the consequences. Instead of Spike who is sure what Buffy thinks/feels without talking to her and that's where all the distrust comes from. How funny that Spike is the one who doesn't think it's the right relationship for him now that he's had Buffy.


Agreed. Angel's maturity during that whole arc very much impressed me and I'm proud of him. None of that could've been easy for him, but he respected Buffy instead of talking down on her and dealt with her choosing Spike over him maturely. That's one thing I can say Gage did handle well.

jr24tw wrote:
B/A has been pretty much put to rest for good. Looks like this Season it's B/S turn. I'm at peace with that, really. I just don't care about Buffy enough anymore (thanks writers of the show and comics) as a character. I'm glad for Angel more than anything. If I didn't know Joss and co. would completely mess it up I'd actually go with elle2's A/F ship, but when Angel turns human.


My one question is if Angel shanshues, then wouldn't that likely mean he'd be the one to get with Buffy? It matches up with Buffy's desire for a normal life and a relationship. That's B/A only chance at this point. Of course that's not definite so you may be right ... I just find it an odd ending to have Angel shanshu and then not be with Buffy. That just doesn't really make sense.
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jr24tw
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RomancexGirl wrote:

My one question is if Angel shanshues, then wouldn't that likely mean he'd be the one to get with Buffy? It matches up with Buffy's desire for a normal life and a relationship. That's B/A only chance has at this point. Of course that's not definite so you may be right ... I just find it an odd ending to have Angel shanshu and then not be with Buffy. That just doesn't really make sense.


In one word, nope. For one thing I can't see Joss ever fulfilling the Shanshu because he would just be pissing off one part of the fandom. And if it goes to anyone it will most likely be Spike. Because Joss loves handing everything to Spike without the character ever having to lift a finger. After all he never has to aplogize, redeem himself, find his own mission or actually make a life of his own. So why should this be any different? Also for some strange reason his fans thinking the Shanshu belongs to Spike, conveniently forgetting all the other parts of the prophecy on that scroll. Some of which has already happened to/with Angel but none to/with Spike. And I bet Joss has forgotten too.

Also Joss craps on Angel every damn chance he gets. Probably because he reminds him of all the jocks in high school. You know the good looking guys who had it easy and got all the girls. This is his way of making them pay by taking it out on Angel. He has said before he doesn't know how to write a hero who is also good looking. Yeah, whatever Joss. Just admit your freaking hangup and get over it already. Highschool is OUT.

At some point enough is enough. Why do you think the Angel and B/A fandom have gone so quiet for years now? Personally I'm just fed up with Joss Whedon's b.s. when it comes to Angel. And it sure doesn't help that a lot of non-Spike fans were practically bullied out of the fandom. I've gotten over what he has done to Buffy for a while now so she is just someone I like to make fun of. Her being forced to repeat the same crap every year is hilarious to me. However I'm not that willing to forgive in regards to Angel, mainly because I prefer AtS as a show. At least the parts where he wasn't much involved in, meaning S1-4.
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sybil
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2016 3:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"This I can understand. Because for you and sybil, you're looking at the symbolism. That's understandable, if it has nothing to do with the soul debate or dislike of Spike. But I simply can't share it. For me, all that matters is that Spike and soulless Spike are different people and Buffy isn't with her abuser. You say it's irrelevant, but not to me. I won't be frothing at the mouth over that, at least in the context of the characters. The message though ... that's different. I agree Spuffy sends a bad message to fans. Turning an abusive relationship into a healthy, official one is just wrong and unrealistic, soul or no soul. "

No, it isn’t “just symbol.” My view is that Spike IS NOT THAT MAN. Furthermore, I have been broadly tarred when I even suggested Angel hadn’t changed on ATS; EVEN HE SAYS now
My trouble is the shift of POV from Buffy having any agency whatsoever in her own life. She decides herding cats is a good solution to her problems.

PERIOD.

She is the slayer, but she wants “normal” so she sleeps with a vampire because that makes everything “make sense” of her superior/inferior/slayer/human—but I am the slayer comma The ( in a world of everything and everyone ELSE changing: thousands of them, yet she continues with this “divided self,” incapable of learning WHY that turns out so well with “ “family,” who actually change, or WHY her ‘stellar record with men’ aka “normal” isn’t about “genitals.”

And meanwhile, Angel continues with the now transformed “saint and wise mother’ Faith at center/now become Buffy, as he battles the “mother of evils” of his own blood (line). At least the dark sister (Kathy or Cathy) is “the dark sister to Buffy” as the “beloved’ in friendship, but NOT in the “normal” incestuous by sleeping with her.

But, hey. They can work on that “sentient magick” in a bubble (the snow globe metaphor) to make Angel’s epic, world busting powers appear even stupider than he already has and blow us all to hell. Like that isn’t boring REGARDING FAMILY and his desires for ‘mortality.’ (Really?)

Season eleven has a guarantee of having Angel “ANGST WITH BUFFY” because BUFFY is the “go no where girl” as the world changes IN TIME:

“’I would not feel so all alone; EVERYBODY must get stoned!’” –Bob Dylan.


HUGS!
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elle2
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PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2016 8:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

romancegirl wrote:
.. Y'know what? You're right. There are so many things wrong with these comics. Many of us have covered it extensively yet Joss still calls it "canon". Why am I finding "reasons" in this horrible writing? Why am I accepting these "canon" standards for Buffy that involved regressing her, making a tool to Spike's story, and making everything about Spike? Why am I "settling" for these lower standards when she deserves so much better? Why am I still dealing with these recycled plots, fan corruption, fanservice, characters making the same mistakes, characters becoming another character and being "okay" with that? WHY AM I STILL INVESTING IN THESE BUFFY AND ANGEL COMICS AT ALL WHEN THEY'RE NO LONGER ABOUT THEM??

That's it. I'm disgusted. I should never have tolerated any of this kind of writing for Buffy. If it's not about her ... if Spike/Spuffy fans have contaminated everything ... then there's really no point for me to take any of this seriously. I was here for Buffy and when it's not about Buffy, the series die with it. That's what these comics are. That's why so many people don't like them, even neutral fans. There's no heart in it anymore. They are practically fanfic-writing.

Thanks, Elle2, for giving me that epiphany. You solved all my stress and pairing fears. I officially don't care anymore about the bad writing or if they even they GIVE B/A an chance. It's a waste of time caring. If the writers don't care, then neither should we. I think from now on I'll just keep up a casual interest, like reading the comics is reading fanfics because with the writing you can't tell the difference. There's still a chance for things to get better ... but right now it isn't and I'm not gonna waste my time giving a damn about something that clearly forgot what Buffy was all about. She deserves better than this.


To romancegirl, even if I'm glad that you finally are able to get my POV, if you may, i would still want to clarify that our point of discussions is NOT about who is RIGHT or WRONG between us. I don't consider this as victory over you. In the first place, I did not post here to argue with anyone. Though I admit my use of words may imply that I'm arguing.

My intention to salvage what is STILL left for Buffy/Angel's Tale. My intention is to share my love for BOTH Buffy & Angel. My intention is to cherish Buffy/Angel Tale.


Those are my intentions. If ever I engaged myself to long discussions, that's because I also want to share my POVs about what's HAPPENING to THE TALE and to the characters I love most.

I am concerned. Just like most of the posters here, I also invested a lot for Buffy/Angel. I WOULD HAVE NOT CHOSEN this ship IF I COULD NOT BACK IT UP WITH FEASIBLE REASONS. I WOULD HAVE NOT CHOSEN THIS SHIP, IF I DID NOT BELIEVE IN ITS BASIC and BEAUTIFUL PREMISE.

I am woman. I know what Buffy feels. I am fully aware of the feeling of insecurities. I HAVE WANTED to be like her. But in Season 6...I did not like what I am seeing. She IS NO LONGER the FEMALE character I would look up to. I have sympathies for her. But I can't SYMPATHIZE for her FOREVER if all the writers could do is TO MAKE HER SYMPATHETIC.

-How could I believe that the writers are DOING RIGHT for Buffy's character if Cordy and Faith HAD BEEN WRITTEN OTHERWISE?
-Why would the writers make Buffy "happy with Spuke" as a resolution to her "regressed" state with IMPLYING message of "giving up your ideal love" so you could be the "ideal love" for other?
-Why would the writers want me to "invest" to Spuke when ANOTHER vampire is STILL out there, and the VERY main MODEL why Spuke became the "character that he is now". If it wasn't for Angel, Spuke would have no idea that HAVING a soul is BONUS point for any vampires that would aspire to "get" Buffy.

And yes, I'm a biased towards Angel. He IS THE REASON why I WATCHED Btvs. And even if I wanted to see Angel happy with anyone other than Buffy, be it Faith, Cordy, Darla or Nina....the INESCAPABLE TRUTH is...ANGEL LOVES BUFFY MOST.

The only character that made Buffy secondary as to Angel's TRUE LOVE, IS HIS SON - Connor.

Connor is important to Angel. As Dawn is important to Buffy. Buffy sacrificed herself for Dawn, even if she knew Dawn WAS NOT her REAL & BIOLOGICAL SISTER. If Buffy would be given a child, I'm sure that child WOULD be on The TOP of Buffy's TRUE LOVE.

The GIST is, both Buffy and Angel had LOVED others. But would their CONNECTION cease to exist? I REFUSE TO BELIEVE. THEY MADE EACH OTHER HAPPY.

Buffy was THE PERFECT HAPPINESS both for Angel and Angelus.
Angel made Buffy PLEASANTLY NUMB.

So why the writers keeps FORCING me to SEE A LOVE STORY that FOUNDED on abusive relationship and turn it "magically" into healthy one?

Have those writers DID NOT realize that IN REAL LIFE, ANY RELATIONSHIP FOUNDED ON ABUSE WILL NEVER BE CONVERTED TO SOMETHING HEALTHY?!

That's a fact.

I dont really know what to think about the B/S fans who are trying to make sense that Season 6 WILL BE INVALIDATED as long as the writers FURTHER TURNED B/S into a healthy relationship, now that Spuke had a soul. Because they say IT IS REAL RELATIONSHIP.

Buffy lives in a world that a demon could have a soul. We, the audience, live in REAL WORLD that demons are either "product of imagination" or "bad spirits".

We live in the world where men do BOTH bad things and good things. hence, IN REAL LIFE, its NOT THAT SIMPLE to SEPARATE the man and his act. For ACTIONS defines a PERSON. And WE, even the Christian God, JUDGE ACCORDING TO ACTIONS. And judgement comes with Sanctions. In every religion, there is ALWAYS "cause & effect". A KARMA.

So..it's not just about symbolism, romancegirl. We could go on continues debates if the comical writers CAN REALLY write Buffy "in state of happiness" of Spuke. It's fiction, so ANYTHING is REALLY POSSIBLE.

But as fans, WE STILL HAVE THE POWER to continue the series as I said before, even without the comics. These comical writers DID NOT WATCH the series as long as we have. Only Scott Allie was the longest one, but I don't think he HAS EMOTIONAL INVESTMENTS for the characters like we do. And the mere fact that he became a drug addict, his mentality is somewhat questionable, IMO.

So there are no other recourse but to Believe IN THE TALE. The spukies and B/S fans may regard us as FOOLS and LIVING in fantasy. But heck, believing that a girl IS TRULY AT PEACE in the arms of someone she LOATHED before and DAMNED her is more look like a fantasy to me.

Hentai Fantasy, I say again.

have you seen a hentai story before? I did. If you haven't, Hentai are japanese animated stories that IS classified as PORNOGRAPHIC materials. Its main purpose is really to titillate sexual imaginations, but the stories are the same, particularly of those that deals with rape and abusive relationship. Girls are portrayed as either too bossy or too reserved. But in anyways, girls WILL BE SUBMISSIVE at the end. Normally, the guys are repressed nerds and sexual addicts and they will seduce the girls who DON'T LIKE them. If the girls displayed resistant, the guys will RAPE them and or seduce to do rough sex, until the girls WOULD realize that THEY ENJOY it. And the once once-sided and abusive relationship, would TURN into a legitimate LOVE story, and both of them would live happily ever after, as the girls ARE NOT BOTHERED anymore that they guys they used to detest were addicts and criminals, because AS LONG AS THEY LOVE EACH OTHER, they are HAPPY TOGETHER.

With that kind of storytelling, do you see Buffy/Angel love story as that, romancegirl? NO....Keywords...."ONE-SIDED" and "ABUSIVE" Relationship. I bet my life, that even the jerky Joss Whedon, WILL NEVER describe Buffy/Angel as "one-sided" and "abusive".

So..do you know which ship reminds me of hentai fantasy, romancegirl,...yeah...B/S.

Like I said, at least Japanese hentai series are classified as PORN. And it does NOT mislead the readers to consider it as MORALLY RIGHT nor a ROMANCE NOVEL. It is PORN. Its purpose is simply to "titillate" and does not ask for any emotional investments from its readers/audience, NEITHER want its audience to MAKE SENSE of it on the level that IT IS "RELATABLE" in REAL LIFE.


So, my disagreement about B/S is not about "symbolism", romancegirl. THE REALITY is in OUR REAL WORLD, ANY GIRL WHO HAS BEEN IN AN ABUSIVE RELATIONSHIP and stays with a guy WHOM SHE DID NOT REALLY LOVE, but being afraid to be alone, she DECIDED to "love the that guy" anyway, with A HOPE that he WILL DO EVERYTHING to LOVE HER ALWAYS....is MERELY LIVING in FANTASY and DENIALS. Those GIRLS ARE WILLING TO GIVE UP THEIR SELF-ESTEEM and PLACING THEIR FAITH to those guys WHOM they DID NOT WANT at the beginning. They ARE SUBMISSIVE to those guys who DAMNED them and eventually realized THAT THEY ARE WRONG FOR NOT WANTING THEM before.

That's a fact, romancegirl. It's not just a "symbolism". Please TELL THAT TO THOSE B/S Fans, especially if they are GIRLS.

I promise I won't be judgemental, but those Spukey & B/S fans who HAVE THAT KIND OF VIEWPOINT, REALLY ALARMS ME.

They KEEP TELLING THE B/A Community, to the point of ridiculing B/A fans that Buffy/Angel are IMMATURE when it comes to love and UNREALISTIC who like FAIRY TALES. But those idiotic B/S fans CAN NOT EVEN see that THEY ARE MERELY DESCRIBING THEMSELVES, for THEY ARE THE IMMATUREs and UNREALISTICs. Have they forgotten these dialogues between Buffy and Angel?:

Quote:

Angel: I knew this was gonna happen.
Buffy: What? What do you think is happening?
Angel: You're sixteen years old. I'm two hundred and forty-one.
Buffy: I've done the math.
Angel: You don't know what you're doing, you don't know what you
want...
Buffy: Oh. No, I, I think I do. I want out of this conversation.
(starts to walk past him)
Angel: (bumps into her) Listen, if we date you and I both know one
thing's gonna lead to another.
Buffy: One thing already has led to another. You think it's a little
late to be reading me a warning label?
Angel: I'm just tryin' to protect you. This could get outta control.
Buffy: Isn't that the way it's supposed to be?

He grabs her by the shoulders and pulls her closer. She draws a startled
breath.


Angel: This isn't some fairy tale. When I kiss you, you don't wake up
from a deep sleep and live happily ever after.

Buffy: No. When you kiss me I wanna die.


Those B/S fans ONLY remembers Buffy's line of "When You Kiss Me, I Want to Die", as that has been the subject of MOCKERY and RIDICULE against our fanbase. But THEY AGAIN DISREGARD the VERY BASIC PREMISE, (WITH EMPHASIS ON "BASIC" AND "PREMISE", so it WOULD BE CLEAR THAT WHAT I AM TELLING IS REALLY BASIC.), that Angel WARNED Buffy that THEY ARE NOT LIVING IN FAIRY TALES, and BUFFY KNOWS IT.

So the premise of B/A as something "INNOCENT", does NOT PERTAIN of them being "IGNORANT" about the TRUE NATURE of their romance, neither of them being "IMMATURE" as what those idiotic B/S fans are thinking about. B/A is INNOCENT because as SMG have said it better, "IT IS LOVE IN ITS TRUEST AND MOST PURE FORM". And if we were going to "borrow" Joss' LINE of thinking that "LOVE IS SACRIFICE", BOTH Buffy and Angel SACRIFICED THEIR OWN HAPPINESS, WITH SELFLESS INTENTIONS. And I emphasized again that BOTH Buffy and Angel HAD MUTUAL UNDERSTANDING that what they did is RIGHT.

That's just one of many reasons to CHERISH B/A tale. I'm not trying to make you hate Spuke. But I hope you understand that I can't really sympathize with Spuke if that cost Buffy's dignity.

I'm a woman. I know what is like to be insecure and lonely. I know what is like to be assaulted. I know the trauma.

BUT THERE ARE SO MANY WAYS TO INSPIRE GIRLS TO OVERCOME THOSE LONELINESS, INSECURITIES and FEARS.

Being SUBMISSIVE to the one who damned you and MAKING YOU GIVE UP your "IDEAL" dreams....IS DEFINITELY NOT ONE OF THOSE.

LOOK AT FAITH.

LOOK AT CORDY.

WHY THEY CAN'T DO THE SAME TO BUFFY? Must they make Spuke as Buffy's SALVATION and SAVIOR?

-Faith surrendered to the POLICE, to atone for her sins. Angel only helps.
-Cordy was happy working in Angel Inc, inspite of being ripped off her "rich girl" status, because THE VISION tells her that SHE HAD TO HELP the helpless. Her FINAL breath is TO HELP Angel to FIND his way back again.

What Buffy's "learning experience" with Spuke? That SHE LOVES HIM? and HE's the ONE SHE'S LOOKING ALL HER LIFE???? TO MAKE HER COMPLETE, CONTENT and NORMAL????

If Joss was SO PROUD of having INTELLIGENT audience for Buffy and making Spuke as "THE FINAL GOAL" for Buffy's destiny as an ICON....I'D BE THE FIRST ONE TO VOLUNTEER TO BE OUT OF THIS FANDOM.

I'd rather be called foolish and stupid by B/S fans....if they keep insisting that Spuke IS Buffy's destiny. They can have that.

-If they are going to kill Angel...please do it so. Before they REVERSED Angel's character to make him look like a doormat.

-I'm wishing for Angel/Faith fanfics...but then again, who am I kidding. Joss would probably make Faith hooked up with Spuke instead. And then, a B/S/F would be "thing".

To joss, those things are possible. And if that happened....HE WOULD BE THE BIGGEST FAILURE and so was the BTVS fandom. For he would just merely look like a LIAR when he said that he wanted to create FEMALE characters INDEPENDENT from men's influence.

On the other news,

Sorry to hear about his father's death, though. Maybe now that joss CAN stop PUNISHING his father by making stories about "how father sucks". If joss is really an atheist, then DEATH is the finality of everything. So with the death of his father, the "DADDY ISSUES" as plotlines may be also be stopped from Jossverse.

I hope that "women needs to be abused" too, WOULD also stop in Jossverse.

I can only wish.

ETA:

1) I edited some few words/grammars.
2) I almost forgot to express my sincere gratitude for romancegirl, for finding ways to make this forum alive again. Though, I would really prefer to discuss more about Buffy/Angel and less B/S.
3) I used the words "idiots" and "stupid" not as SLURS but because those are the exact ENGLISH definitions/synonyms/translation to define those people who are lack of average intelligence and lack of common sense. Though I deliberately used the word "jerky" to Joss because of my existing hate against him. And I already expressed those sentiments in my previous posts.

Speaking of Joss, has anyone here known that a devoted fan of his WILL BE RELEASING his biography? Press Release was Nathan Fillion wrote the FOREWORD to Joss.

and Fillion described Whedon as "heroic".
Quote:

Foreword
By Nathan Fillion

My generation, we were kind of raised on the super-cool, "I can handle anything" with a gun in his hand hero. Any situation you throw at him, he can handle it — with catchphrases. It was very cool.

But Joss Whedon's version of a hero doesn't always win. He loses more than he wins, and when he wins, the victories are tiny, but he takes 'em. "That's a victory! I call that a victory!" It's a tiny victory — he takes it, and that's what he walks away with. And that's something I can actually relate to.

That's something that people can relate to — because that's actually life. I don't know a lot of people who win more than they lose. Life is kind of a losing proposition as you go. It's not all winning lotteries every day. It's a lot of "What do I do with this problem? Now how do I handle this?" I think people can relate easier to someone who isn't prepared to handle every single situation, and everything comes out roses and their way, and all they've got to do is be cool. We don't have that in real life.

A friend of mine once told me that what he finds so satisfying about Joss Whedon is his way of telling stories. As a society, we are incredibly story literate: We know story. This is the hero; this is the villain. This is the denouement; this is where the twist comes; this is where the learning experience is; this is where the turn is. We know story.

He said, "Joss Whedon will give you a story twist. But instead of twisting it to the story tradition that we know, he twists it and says, 'That's what happens in stories. This is what happens in real life. This is how real life went.'"

I described Joss to a friend as we were on our way over to his house for a party. And she's heard me tell stories over the years about this fellow. We went to his house, we had a great time, and on the way home, she said, "You know, I got to say, from your description of the kind of guy this guy is, and from all the stories you've told me — I expected him to be six two, chiseled jaw, long, wavy golden hair and bright blue eyes and gleaming teeth, and just chesty and ..." The guy, she said, "when you describe him, he's so heroic."

And yeah, he is. He's heroic like that.


Personally Fillion was ON SPOT on describing Joss, especially those heroes that loses more than winning. That's what he said about Angel few years ago. That's how he justified why he kept bringing Angel on slumping state.

That's what he did to Echo in Dollhouse. Echo's FREEDOM was taken away, until SELF-AWARENESS that someone was using her was Echo's SELF-REALIZATION.

Fillion's "heroic" words are justified to the characters such as Echo and Angel. But I don't think it is justified to Buffy's. And I don't think Buffy's REGRESSED state on Season 6 will be justified, if ever she WILL realize that Spuke was the ANSWER to her "Wanting" & "Needing" for Spuke would be the one who give her what she wants and needs.

Spuke was not to be considered as hero then, based on Whedon's insight of "losing more means winning more". But then, Spuke WAS GIVEN a major award for MOST FULLY DEVELOPED character in Btvs and Ats. Joss Whedon said it about Spuke. And he also said that Spuke was his MOST FAVORITE character along with Illyria MORE than he said that Buffy was his fave. Whedon ONLY said that Buffy was his favorite during the comic con one or two years ago, and he made reservations that his "fave characters" changes DAILY. So it means, if you are going to ask him who is fave character now, FOR SURE, it will change again. (jerk)

Irony, because Buffy The Vampire Slayer was Joss Whedon's ticket to stardom.

So, In real life, Joss Whedon got Avengers, he is treated as "Geek God", "Genius"...and he STILL wins after all, even if HE WOULD REALLY FAIL to make Buffy as FEMALE CHARACTER as INSPIRATION to all girls.

But then again, I remember what he said that his intention in creating Buffy was two-fold intent: To make Women as dominant and Men who are turned-on by her dominance.

So Joss might be writing romance for BtVS, after all. And that romance will based on REAL LIFE scenarios, that women MUST BE SUBMISSIVE at the end to those "below their standard" guys that they have been rejecting all along. And those "below standard" guys will just have TO push harder to GET the girl of their dreams. She WILL WANT him, at the end. (Nevermind if that girl had loved someone else and loved her in return.)

So, I stand by my belief that I agree with Joss' implication that B/A Tale is BIGGER than Storytellers. But sadly, that's the ONLY thing I believe of him. The rest, it just shows that he's just a simple fan of his own fantasies. If he is a hero in his own world and his fans' world, so be it. But he is NOT to me.
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sybil
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 1:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ya know? You are right, elle. This all has turned into "what's wrong" and "not what we enjoyed when it was right.

I have said that I do not understand this "superior/inferior" thing that "showed up" on a girl who seemed (overly?) generous with giving credit to others, even as she had confidence, but learned that juggling her LIFE wasn't as easy as falling off a log.

I do not understand that Spike wasn't staked when he dragged into town without Dru--especially when the "deal" to save Angel in exchange for taking away Dru was BROKEN with Spike coming BACK. HE had the rest of the world to whine in.

Anyway, I do understand the idea of the "wild and free" person as being attractive versus the "buttoned up" in people in romance stories, I just never "got" Buffy as being one of them. Getting drunk and acting stupid was bad in "Beer Bad"--it's actually an old Egyptian myth regarding the powerful Hathor; and when she ran riot with Faith, stealing weapons etc. Which SHOULD HAVE POINTED OUT THE NEGLECT of the Watcher Council. They seem very comfy and smug. I guess that slayers last 10 minutes after scraping together their first stake....

Anywho, there were moments that "didn't work for me" and one is Spike and the other is Penn. Dru might have liked Spike, but I can't see her "turning someone. I think she'd just have eaten him with a whoops and a shrug or a giggle. I think it was Angelus who "finished the job" to get her out of his hair at times. Penn is too much like "daddy dearest" in demeanor, I guess. Why would he nurture THAT?

Ha! I actually said something about Angelus in the Angelus thread.

Well, I think B/Aers neither care for Buffy nor Angel so their romance is surely gone and that seems to be all there is left to say for me.

The things I enjoyed that were so convincing and clear in character or even "the rules" of evil vampires are--gee. Evil? Means all those vamps Buffy killed makes her as much a murderer as Angelus. So. I guess people saw B/AUS as a possibility I simply couldn't fathom as (sputter choke) Love.

HUGS!
sybil
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elle2
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Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:
This all has turned into "what's wrong" and "not what we enjoyed when it was right.


definitely! I came late in joining B/A and Angel fanbase that what welcomed me was the peak of shipper's wars. I had to "dig deeper" to know the VERY BASIC of Angel's history and look for places on the net that wasn't INFECTED yet by spukies and B/S virus. I must say I was lucky to read some posts on "The Bronze" and it was a heavenly place for any BtVS fans because THERE WAS NO HATE in that forum, not until during season 5 where B/S was on its initial phase.

ah...I wish I witnessed first hand those innocent days. And not be traumatized by Spukies who had CLAIMED "Spuke IS the BEST", "Spuke is THE star of Btvs", "Spuke will going to kick Angel's ass on Ats Season 5"....Spuke! spuke! spuke! Spukies are ALL about Spuke, I wonder now if they haven't felt "throwing up" because they are full of Spukey stuffs on their bodies. I mean, you can't fill a glass that is already full. So, if they are full of Spukey stuffs on their body, how are they going take MORE Spukey stuffs in the future?!!!

Or Maybe they could just self-explode?! Laughing

I know I said I wanted to discuss more B/A but reminding me of "what's wrong" in this fandom automatically lead me to think of B/S and Spuke and everything this ship and its fanbase stood for. Bring in the comical writers with drug addict Scott Allie, and Whedon, Espenson and Noxon on the mix, and we have the perfect ingredients of WHY Buffy IS NOT the FEMALE CHARACTER WORTH EMULATING for since Season 6 upto the crappy of comics Geez...Buffy is just merely a facade character now. Everything is REALLY For the glory of Spuke.

Are you sure sybil that His death scene in Chosen is really the "exact" description of Shanshu? That "The VAMPIRE will die and he will be Shanshu'ed." A vampire still sucks the life force of its victims. Spuke STILL sucks ALL the life force of everything that still makes sense in Btvs.

So..nope...Looks to me, Spuke is still a vampire who "sucks" everyone's POWER into him so he could have ALL the ATTENTION he wants in his universe. And it parallels his own fanbase. Wink

You know sybil, I've only realized that the names of Whedon, Noxon and Espenson rhyme with each other. They all end with "-ONs". So it's confirmed that the similarities of these people doesn't only lie on their "turn-ons" for HENTAI fantasy, but its IN THEIR NAMES, too.

Okay enough of "what's wrong".

let's enjoy "what WOULD be RIGHTt", using the comics premise and "what could have been" if Spuke became human and he and Buffy got married in NORMAL way.

1) first, I think Spuke would mostly stay at home playing donkey kong while he waits for Buffy to bring home (and also cook) the bacon, because apparently, Spuke DOES NOT know how to LIVE and WORK as human. Does he cook? Nope. Since what He only knows is to suck blood and sex like a bunny, he would just be a homeboy and Buffy would babysit him like a good mama that she is. But if he tried to find for a formal job, like for instance becoming a Private Investigator, he would be in the middle of a shoot-out between the police and criminals... and he WILL be killed, by shotguns.

2) Spuke and Buffy would have a daughter, but sadly, Buffy would die in labor. So the baby would be left for Spuke to take care of. But since he doesn't know how to take care a baby for he used to be the one "babysat" of, he would abandon his daughter until someone from his past who wanted to take vengeance of him would kidnap his daughter and hide her in a portal like Q'uartoth and she would grow as a POWERFUL slayer angered at her father who abandoned her ...so his daughter would kill him, at an instant she found him.

3) Spuke as a human, would really be suck at being a human. And Buffy would eventually figure it out. And they WOULD have a big fight, like they used to. But since Spuke is now human, Buffy would just kick his balls really hard that would make his prostate malfunctioned and he would eventually have prostate cancer. And so he would die due to cancer.

yeah, sybil, I think those would be the "right" scenarios for me, if Spuke became human! Laughing I mean, since B/S and Spukey fans COULD and WOULD not get enough of their fave couple, I think, it is just right that the comical writers would continue their story even if Spuke became human. But since, Buffy IS NOW proven to BE IMMORTAL, (duh?!!....she COULD NOT DIE! She died twice..and she would die 50 times and she would still manage to live)...But HUMAN Spuke would have to die, at the end.

So any of those "would be" the end that I would be looking forward from now on.

Oh...sorry...I forgot this is a B/Aus thread...so I think it's just right for me to include Angelus on the mix. Here, let me try:

Since the comics "settings" is really not the way before and same as Canon TV series, I think there is REALLY NO USE for Angel to be "Angel" since Spuke is already BECOME Angel...so out of desperation then, Angel would just extract his soul to the Shaman, so he could release Angelus to get back at Spuke...and when he finds that Spuke is human...Angelus WOULD Kill Spuke BRUTALLY and he would take Buffy by forced..

And with that, maybe we CAN NOW insert Yesh' what-if scenario of Angelus being caught by newly rejuvenated Initiatives and they would a put chip on his brain so he could NOT harm Buffy. But Buffy being IN-LOVE with Spuke would reject Angelus, so Angelus would seduce Buffy a little bit more and take advantage of her "depressed state" of losing Spuke, Until Buffy gives-in and she would have this self-hate/depressed reason of sleeping with Angelus. But then she would break this off and Angelus being now "crazy-in-love" with Buffy again, would sexually attack Buffy and she would just kick his ball and she would let him leave...and then Angelus would look for a soul, so he could be Angel again. And then he and Buffy would be back in each others arms. Because you know, SHE NEVER LEARNS..SHE JUST FORGIVES..AND SHE NEEDS A MAN in her life to COMPLETE her.

So...there. Buffy and Angelus/Angel would live happily ever after.

Or in Jossian Tragic Way, Angelus would just simply turn Buffy into a vampire, and her "turning" would be so tragic to Buffy she would go MAD and she would kill Angelus and eventually she would kill herself.

So No ONE IS HAPPY and everybody dies. THE END.

Yeah, sybil...maybe I would have to wait for 20-30 years for this to happen, because how many seasons Btvs comics would go forward?

But damn!!...ANY OF THOSE scenarios would make ME feel right again in Btvs storyline, IF EVER Spuke became human and normal with Buffy. Buffy being a FEMALE EMPOWERED character, who????!!!!!!

The heck, she stopped being "empowered" the moment she welcomed Spuke with open arms and legs AFTER the sexual assault.

So what's the use of FEMALE EMPOWERMENT in the story that no longer deals nor tackles it SENSIBLY?!!!

Joss allowed fanfics in the comics; so the fanfics are written, so it shall be.
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jr24tw
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PostPosted: Sun Apr 10, 2016 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:
Ya know? You are right, elle. This all has turned into "what's wrong" and "not what we enjoyed when it was right.

There is lots to enjoy in early Seasons.

Quote:
Anyway, I do understand the idea of the "wild and free" person as being attractive versus the "buttoned up" in people in romance stories, I just never "got" Buffy as being one of them.

And original recipe Buffy wasn't. Until the writers needed to change her for their plot.

Quote:
Well, I think B/Aers neither care for Buffy nor Angel so their romance is surely gone and that seems to be all there is left to say for me.

Oh I still care. For Angel. And also for S1-4 Buffy because I love that character. But she stopped existing once Dawn came along. And arguably in this new reality has never existed as we know her because of the monks.

Quote:
The things I enjoyed that were so convincing and clear in character or even "the rules" of evil vampires are--gee. Evil? Means all those vamps Buffy killed makes her as much a murderer as Angelus.

And that was the morality they had no balls to explore. Once they changed the rules and mythology around vampires and demons there was no exploration of what that means in terms of the slayer. And that was a giant failing on the showrunners part.
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sybil
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 11, 2016 1:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We're not only sisters, separated at birth, I think we are CLONES. ha!

And, I do think we have all been duly trained in Joss Whedon; that doesn't make US cynical, it makes us REALISTS.

Nathan Fillion is full of crap. THiS hero got it ALL. In Firefly, he had his LIFE,, he had his means for a living, he had loyalty given and received; he protected MINIRVA (it means "hairball"--no way to untangle e.g. cause and effect) in order to have a war. His SUCCESS iin that war was a. surviving it and b. un making the "social powers/winners" face the consequences of their entitlement, (the awful wraiths); he has a LOYAL lover who teaches tantra, which he cannot accept in his NEED TO WIN, which would require Captain Tightpants to accept he has both male and female principles within himself and the "female" principle is WHO teaches him to engage and "open," not just techniques in delaying a single orgasm that men pride themselves on. (Tantra teaches men to orgasm frequently, but not to ejaculate, in order to increase energy and open the chakras to the upper levels of consciousness).

WHAT DID HE REALLY LOSE? His pilot? WE LOST THE ONLY MARRIED PEOPLE who showed how to respect, trust, and love each other fully.

You are right, I mean these "things" posing as Buffy and Angel NOW that I don't care what happens to them.

"Original recipe Buffy?" I think I mighta peed a little laughing at that one, not to mention that Buffy would choose Spike because he never has to do anything--it just "magically" gets handed to him. Wasn't "struggle" the big finale in NFA? What "struggle" does Spike have, other than to learn how to get somebody to do his laundry? I mean a single shirt, covered in gore....

Still laughing, you can't fill a glass that's already full. Well, gee, elle just because you are sane and live in the real world-- In Jossland, we just remove the glass, and have water freeze over , putting US in hell ; and yet they try to TELL US NOT TO NOTICE NONE OF THESE PEOPLE have ANY reality.

I have to say I am seeing more imaginative writing going on in these few posts than I have seen in YEARS for Angel AND Buffy.

As for Angel "losing more than he gets." Um...supposedly he gained HIMSELF. What else IS THERE? SHEESH. Well, because WE notice that he is STILL A VAMPIRE, so how is THAT "done?"

Spike wasn't promised Shanshu ANYWAY. And he doesn't have the same problems with his demon. It seems "they" get along well, as everyone else takes care of his needs. Including his willingness to sleep with demons and vampires when BUFFY is busy. No prob.

Angel on ATS actually learned, in the beginning of the series , re the difficulty of being around humans to retain his connection to THEIR suffering and not his own.

The lesson he doesn't learn is how to STOP SUFFERING, ESPECIALLY HIS OWN. He keeps trying to do the "big thing" because (Buffy is getting older and he doesn't have forever?) he thinks "killing them all" is HIS job. Nor is it his job to SAVE them all.

Um...no. Angel helps the helpless HELP THEMSELVES. AND THAT INCLUDES HIM, as Cordy points out, As WES pointed out, even in his depressive state, 'You keep CALLING ME." And HE NEVER FIGURES OUT.

What are the instructions in a plane crash? MOMS put the oxygen to YOUR face or you will be unconscious and UNABLE to help your own children!

Buffy showed the way to be connected to LIFE ITSELF: she admitted she was afraid and didn't want to die. SHE FOUGHT.... NOW, everyone else "gets the say."

She makes Spike and Angel look petty and stupid when Angel has ZERO to be jealous of, in Spike, except EVERYONE ON THE PLANET can be around this girl BUT HIM.

You would think he would really "look into that." And Angelus is part of the problem. HE was the one cursed and Angel gets to live with that in "surround sound."

The shrink he saw told him to ABUSE A WOMAN! Why? BECAUSE HE IS EVIL!! THEN season 8 comes along and "abuse a woman" is NOW OKAY?

"Hero complex" because he is so UNWORTHY of being anything more than USED AND ABUSED? Really? That is what the writers show. And they show "family" is indeed his curse, even as his isolation causes him to lose all purpose in an eternity that is endless, llost to his helpless suffering because all those people are dead and NO ONE CAN FORGIVE HIM.

ABUSING THIS CHARACTER is not the "cause" or "consequence" of a hero complex. it is indeed the YEARNING TO NOT FEEL SO UNWORTHY.

Not to mention Buffy is not in love with EVIL, even if she has to accept difficult things that are IN that dark she has to navigate. The dark itself is merely "ignorance." NOT "evil." Without "light" as in "soulless" suddenly means nothing as Spike is now sold as being "stained with humanity." Gee. HUMANS make STAINS out of people and that somehow makes them "excuseable" because this human might have had an "incomplete childhood?"

YOU THINK Angel's "natural" revulsion isn't tempered with "needing his preternatural strengths to be a "hero" with?

Um...no. Angel is so deeply human. He would use his last fingernail to help someone "hold on." It is that he sees people in trouble and tries to help when most people step over them as "unimportant" or "inconvenient" or "too this or too that." And he does it with his calm, his EMPATHY, his incredible level of LISTENING, not just "hearing" while he thinks about what he wants to say, and with his honesty. He knows its hard to change and harder to keep it up, but he DOESN'T HAVE TO DO IT ALL ALONE. So HOW does preternatural strength do ANY of these things?

He lost that in trying to protect everyone from "everything" all the time. He needed protecting, too. Especially because he was indeed the "only one" in the world, until they TRIED to make Spike "become Angel."

NOW, I have no use for ANY OF THESE PEOPLE. There is no way back for me that even the greatest romantic conclusion of B/A in a church. I'd know these people make me puke and thus, the whole thing would be a lie and is the wrong conclusion to THIS story.


and better self assessing BEFORE "superior/inferior" raised its ugly head and JOSS DID IT!



His purpose was clear in the path to redemption in saving the one, he had to FACE himself.

And that means dealing with the curse. And THAT means, he will have to accept everything that has made him. He does have his OWN light, after all, he can't be worthless if his beloved SEES him as worthy OF HER; and of "light" and "great judgment" if she LOVES HIM BACK!

Buffy "believed in him." She also said, "what about me?" She loves him and the world without him in it, is truly the poorer, but he really doesn't have to be fate's "whipping boy." He just reverted to "family" solves all problems when it really doesn't. It means RESPONSIBILITY to yourself and to them. Not replacing the same people with different faces that HAS NOT CHANGED since LIAM got a sister and "off shoring people" to protect them, denying them their OWN AGENCY.

And Buffy got Dawn. AGREED! I see Connor and Dawn as cheats on the "normal/mortality" and the switcheroo of completely human characters, flawed and yet so admirable in actually trying to live, forgive, love--very human are now avatars. I cringe every time I remember Joss called Buffy a comic book character (Like his Amazing X Men heroine, Kitty Pride--girl next door with gumption and even a big guy but "emotionally inaccessible" Colossus. Who she slept with before taking the big dive to her death encapsulated inside the planet.

Character "transplants" in an "all about Buffy" or "all about Angel" premise seems to be a rather large mistake for a professional writer--especially those who actually bothered to SEE the shows--and many NEVER HAD; wouldn't you think so ; BUT IT WAS THE "teenie beanie brained B/Aers" WHO DARED TO NOTICE AND THEN FINALLY HAD TO ADMIT "I SMELL SH*T! AND I SEE PURE BULL SH*T!

The comics could do whatever they wanted, but JOSS DARED to tell us fans this is a continuation of canon , which stupid me, I thought he was actually going to FINISH THE STORY HE HIMSELF STARTED ON BOTH SHOWS when a. HE DIDN'T DO THE WRITING and others couldn't be bothered to LOOK UP what that canon said and SHOWED.

It wasn't "betrayal" on the story I finally thought I would see, even past "mistakes" and "WTF!!!, it simply is called FRAUD and the truth is when money was paid for one thing to get another it is also called a crime.


And THAT is what also makes me angry. I was robbed physically and emotionally.

HUGS!
sybil
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sybil
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2016 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wait...They had to let go of each other to "grow up."

Uh...THAT is "dogma" for ATS to exist. It didn't seem to be a problem for the Scoobies to STAY and grow up.

A. Buffy said, "this can't be anything." Why? VAMPIRE/MORTAL. (And we are back to Angel's own greatest desire for this paradigm to change. Which doesn't explain Spike who is able to stay and "grow up" WITH her).
B. Buffy said, "I need to grow up in all the rituals and passages of growing up that are the "sign posts" for those changes to be recognized. Which means we are talking about cultural nods acceptable by OTHERS.
Buffy wans to "fit into the world." This is not a stupid concern; it's basic DNA to survive and emotionally, thrive. SHE IS A FREAK!


Except Buffy already took on the RESPONSIBILITY of saving the world, saving her family, not merely her "love life." Because Angel understood that burden he (once) wanted to help. Spike mostly wants Buffy to love him, even if he does like "Manchester United" more than "transcending" to sainthood.

C. RE: the "outsider." Buffy was an outsider to even the "scoobs," who are the 'loser' set. (See Firefly; Capn. Tightpants lost the war but not his story—everyone has his story/POV , even on the “same story”—part of “horror agenda of THIS story). And STILL Buffy remains a freak. SEE Angel. A FREAK: ONE OF A KIND.


Obviously being seen and accepted/understood as such, in a favorable light aka “special” is part of that "I believe in you" and most certainly makes them a positive force in each other's lives that they do “fit” in the world, are not alone, at least with each other.

D. Buffy wants "ordinary things"--she has tried hard to juggle her life to include those things, including her "work place wardrobe." Her needs change quickly—even in “BOYFRIENDS.”

Buffy is written with dating human beings, as signs of her learning in what makes a successful relationship for a life partner. She may love Angel, but she is “expected” to date those others also feel are ‘acceptable.’

MAJOR DEAL WITH BUFFY: She “takes down” social “norms’ and Institutions that do not serve inclusively or justly.

Her love for Angel recognized his vampirism from the start, that does not negate that she loves the man, she loves how he loves her, but she sees there are “problems” to solve and that doesn’t mean “she needs to grow up.” Angel needs to be HUMAN.

She rejects Parker EVENTUALLY in learning that she wasn’t “inadequate” or the “jerk” of the piece. She understands that NO WOMAN deserves such treatment, and we see her need to “re-empower” herself, specifically, by “breaking Parker’s nose” in a (vengeful) punch to his nose. (Old myth of beauty as tyrannical—breaking Parker’s nose destroyed his “perfect beauty” that freed others from worshipping him all day (and not being mesmerized by his beauty to even listen to the lies); and it freed him to have to learn to be a decent human being, worthy of being cared for by another human being). Owen loves the reckless nature of “extreme sport” and not the dangerous duty attached to being a slayer’s helper with the great judgment and learning required to survive it. Willow eventually learns to develop her interst and focus on magica as a skill set that helps her survive and adapt, for example. Xander learned “military strategies.”)

Angel came “equipped” with these features, but even HE had to develop himself, as a warrior, by “getting ready for a year” to help Buffy. He had to gather contacts, resources, and learn new ways to feed and sustain himself—he had to face his limitations with sun as a “problem” and not a “solution” to his own unique psyche: the sewer systems and setting up his own living, clothing, weapons, and even “reading materials” through he library and his own “contacts”—public places and “invitation” are part of his limitations.

This is part of Angel’s awareness that Buffy NEEDS “normal” and can function in both light and darkness. This has nothing to do with “growing up” for him, other than his own jealousy he can’t be part of it WITH Buffy.

So!

E. Finding a purpose in life as an independent adult is ALWAYS under assault in a universe that is essentially “set up” to be absurd and HAVE NO MEANING, other than what we, as humans, “choose to believe” is important enough to clutch our fate and put it in our own hands, now defining “destiny” as “free will.”

Now this is where Angel “needed to grow up.” He thought he would “be with Buffy until she died”—and he mostly wanted to prevent it “forever”—and could see also his own jealousies (weakness in assessing self worth against others) of her actually “growing up” HURT.

Watching that was always tested with her “seeing him” even in times he was “unseeable” as he experienced the phenomenon of “finding her” even from another dimension—not to mention “mind walking” with PLEASURE in each other’s experienced in their bodies through magic. And this keeps bring up the CURSE. Not “growing up” by GIVING UP, when one hasn’t EVEN TRIED “to figure it out” or “question what is/are REAL impediment(s).”

I think people who have some “impediment” IMPOSED by others, requires “looking into.’ We, the audience, are just “dismissed” that no answer exists in a curse…in a world that has a warlock AND a witch and a library re “CASTING SPELLS/CURSES.” It is not an either or solution. It is not all good or all evil/all demon or soul solution. BOTH have to have “perfect happiness” and it was shown HOW, many times. And always it was WITH Buffy, metaphorically “killing involved—and the “end of the world” implied/shown.

The problem really is that the COST of finding the answer does simply mean DEATH/Destruction of the world for such a “transcendent change.” And that is what Buffy can’t “allow’ and SHE remains stuck, even more than the actual FAILED choices Angel’s makes on his own WITHOUT her.

I feel they are PROMISED normal/mortality to be “wild and free” in all things and the fact they are seekers/ warriors, (darkness doesn’t mean evil) means the state of being in their bodies is “the now” and joyful and is the INVERSION of the avator of “slayer” and “knowing what to see” within that serves the “story” of “what we see” as the shows “becoming” and achieving ‘ADULTHOOD.’


The writers SHOWED this over and over, even as they technically ended the series with The Gift”. And the problem with the Gift is the view of a “free” Buffy (not in a box, but above it and a Dead Buffy, WITH ALL THE “BOOGITY” LEFT BEHIND. Ut she is in “the other dimension.” And the world CONTINUES for everyone ELSE. (The actual “dead world” of childhood and that “left the story” “kinda done” with the “cheat” of the “portal” as “magical excuse” that enables “”bringing people back.” Destroying that world is how it has to go for Buffy to actually “become an adult.” It doesn’t mean Xander doesn’t exist. The others are “problematic.” IMO.

The comics bringing Hank back into the world where Giles is, is also a “problem” in “world building,” IMO. He is “unreal” in “chaper/verse” re Buffy’s struggles around “father.’ We see she changed, but he has not. Really?

And, in recounting her lessons, she makes her nod to Angel (NOT SPIKE), despite “protecting him” –the potential “intact” under a “brake” of the chip, with humans in attendance, who always “change” and thus, potential is always the mirror in each yes/no choice).

So, it caused the “static state” I see with Buffy and with the Story between Buffy and Angel, even as hey change Spike into Angel in order to “cuase problems” when these two NEVER HAD AN IMPEDIMENT, other than the fact he is a vampire and THAT has nothing to do with “growing up” on HIS part. It sure does with Buffy, but it does not with Angel, whose “troubles” are focused on ‘the curse” and Buffy’s “slayer” gig as HER curse as a singular life choice denying all other expressions of “normal” Buffy most certainly proved she could provide for herself. See Watcher’s council. See weak or evil principals. See evil teachers (and why Jenny was important in “sharing knowledge” as the driving force of a teacher, who can function in the world of adults and understand that of a child—she overthrew the tyranny of her own “tribe and its institutions.” And, of course, she died. She was an adult! )

Anyway, “growing up” and Angel v Spike are very different things to me.

As for Buffy loving Spike now. Gee, never was a n impediment—even when he had no soul. So, now ‘she loves him.” Well, how did that ‘advance” growing up? Spike turns into Angel? And Angel is turned into a “mature adult” saying that is fine when it wasn’t “fine” for him when it was “the curse” that was the impediment?

So Buffy’s love must have ONLY a sexual component to it within her own circle, when the writers are showing the real problem is HAVING SEX” AT ALL?

Gee they even took apart Giles and Jenny, killing them before “consummation.” Don’t you think that has something to do with DESTROYING THE WORLD? As has been shown? And yet “nothing happens” when it is sex ith Spike? Buffy goes about “killing them all” to SAVE THE WORLD when she is with Spike? That world of “childhood?” Even as B/A/AUS always tends to bring about "the end of the world" AND through "sex/death?" Limbs and weapons also act as "sexual" metaphors "on some level.
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sybil
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MaryZg
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PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I hope someone is still reading this, and will answer my question. It has to do, in general, with the subject of this thread, but it's actually about a point in the show that serves to justify the idea that the soulless Angel would rather destroy the world than admit to loving Buffy, or rather than live without her, or whatever argument one would like to make.

This and similar arguments hinge on the fact that everyone seems to be taking for granted, namely, that Angel (and by extension - vampires in general, but also humans the vampires feed on) would also be destroyed in this Acathla's hell. Thus, Angel is in fact committing suicide, and Drusilla is helping because she's insane and doesn't see that she would be destroying herself as well, or at least her food stock.

So my question is: what would actually happen to the world and its inhabitants - human and vampire alike - in this hell? Anyone knows?
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