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As a Bangel fan, does Spuffy threaten you?
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Are you threatened by Spuffy?
Yes
2%
 2%  [ 1 ]
No
75%
 75%  [ 34 ]
It's complicated
22%
 22%  [ 10 ]
Total Votes : 45

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genesis
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Joined: 17 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 6:29 am    Post subject: As a Bangel fan, does Spuffy threaten you? Reply with quote

I realize this is an odd question and is hard to answer. But I put it as plainly as possible. Assuming that you are here because Buffy/Angel was a relationship that truly spoke to you during the show's run (or on DVD/TV reruns), how do you react to Buffy/Spike as a relationship? Both in the show and **SPOILER WARNING** in the comics?

I ask because I guess I am kind of naive on this point. I had a huge online presence starting around season 2 (oh my god could that summer BE any longer-- not knowing if Angel was ever coming back!) and that was when I was first exposed to Buffy/Spike. I had to say... that I liked it! In a world without Angel I could accept Spike. I found him quite winning generally, a nice touch of the bad boy and when he came to Buffy's aid in Becoming I was genuinely thrilled.

I didn't like the way Spike and Buffy's relationship devolved in season 6 and I don't think they had enough time onscreen after that to repair any of the damage that was done. I've watched and rewatched the seasons a million times, and read a million fanfics-- more featuring B/S than B/A for some reason. Maybe because it's really hard to improve on perfection, and Buffy and Angel's love story is the closest thing I've seen to such on television. It hit all the perfect buttons. But at some point I accepted that Angel wasn't coming back and Spike, in lieu of Angel, is what I wanted. In a lot of ways Spike is like Angel. To me he was a small connection to Angel while he was gone, someone who remained in Sunnydale who knew Angel and was connected to Angel. I found him comforting that way. I thought Buffy and Spike had a lot of potential that wasn't explored by the writers on the show, they took it another way.

But I came to find out that it's a rare position to hold these days. It seems there is a line in the sand and you are either on one side or the other, Angel or Spike. And in the ultimate showdown of ultimate destiny, I think that I personally love Buffy with Angel the most and that's what I want to see. But I am not threatened by Spike. I think it's clear that Buffy loves Angel, always have and always will, and I don't think any feelings she has or has had for Spike interfere with that. And I mostly welcome anyone who is into Buffy and Spike to share their views on that. I get irritated if my 'ship starts getting poked, of course. As I'm sure many of you do. But I am just as uncomfortable with the animosity I sometimes see towards Buffy/Spike from Bangel fans. I just don't know why the love of one character and relationship has to automatically mean hatred for the other, and I wonder if anyone else is in this place with a population of one so far.

And if you do hate Spike and would have loved nothing better for him to have succeeded when he jumped on Xander's coffee table, why do you feel the way you do? And how would you react if **SPOILERS AGAIN** Buffy slept with Spike in the comics, instead of Angel.
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LilBufBuf
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 9:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly? I think B/S fans feel more threatened because the fact that Buffy loves Angel and will always love Angel is canon, whereas it's Buffy really never loved Spike the way she loved Angel. I think Bangel fans deal with an immense amount of animosity from the other side as well.
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Kean
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have to run to meet friends for lunch but I'll just give a quick answer now and come back and answer properly later.

I'm not, nor have I ever been threatened by the ship itself. Like you said it is quite clear that Angel is the King of Buffy's Heart. A mere glance at canon proves that.

However, my experience with the fans have lead me to have rather dismal view of Spike and Spuffy in general. The fact that they run 80% of the fandom means that there is pretty much nowhere to go where you can't feel their influence and I have to say soooooo much of what they fand and believe in is the polar opposite to what I do. For instance, yesterday, on another forum I frequent, a Spuffy friend of mine said that now that Spike is back in the comics he hopes that Buffy will extend him the same courtesy as she did Angel and give him a similar reunion because Spike has earned it!!!

Spike has earned sleeping with Buffy? He's earned it!?! I find that a mind boggling conclusion to come to and honestly am kind of amazed he admitted to having it.

Then you have the issues with Spike himself where he is portrayed as this amazing, fantastic man and everything he does wrong is ignored or blamed someone else. If Spuffies weren't running the fandom this wouldn't matter but they are and this is an opinion that I'm hit with every, single day and it grates...alot.

These are all silly reasons to have not like a character or ship but to turn on your internet everyday and know there is only 2 places you can go to enjoy your fandom without being hassled, and aggresively so at times, well you can't help but build up resentment. I don't enjoy it and I wish we could all just coexist but things have gotten personal now and no one seems to want to find a middle ground.
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CrystalSC
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kean wrote:
For instance, yesterday, on another forum I frequent, a Spuffy friend of mine said that now that Spike is back in the comics he hopes that Buffy will extend him the same courtesy as she did Angel and give him a similar reunion because Spike has earned it!!!


Wow. WOW. Really? Wow. What the heck does that say about Buffy? That's like whoring her out. "Well, you slept with him. You gotta sleep with me now!"

I actually liked Spike in the shows and never really saw him as a threat to B/A. I saw their relationship in season 6 as highly dysfunctional and unhealthy just as the writers intended. So I felt comfortable in my zone that B/A was still THE couple. I was way more irritated with A/C at the time!

My problems with Spike started when he got his soul and he began stealing everyone's thunder. He took precedence over all the other scoobies in season 7 of btvs and over all the other great characters in season 5 of angel (I felt like Wes became a footnote behind Spike).
Don't get me wrong, there were times in season 7 when I thought he was great. I thought James Marsters did a great job portraying his "crazy" state and I liked the calmer level of friendship he & Buffy obtained. And you gotta give it to him, he had some great speeches ("You're the one Buffy"). I was pleased when he stood by her when no one else did but for Buffy's sake - because I felt like my girl was being emotionally beat on. All this is why I didn't mind when she said "I love you" to him in Chosen. I felt like she did love him in a caring way. As someone who has touched your life but just isn't the one in the long haul for you. And I thought it showed how much his character had grown that he said, "No you don't but thanks for saying it anyway."

But giving him the soul set him up to be the "Angel" in her life - to try and make her look at him as she did Angel and I had problems with that. It felt as though they were trying to just give him an "all good" card right away so that he could be with Buffy. Then on season 5 of Angel, he's just there to cause Angel to doubt himself? That upset me. It went from feeling like Angel and the gang to the Angel & Spike show. Again, there are things I like very much about season 5. But having a soul is what made Angel who he is. Just like Buffy being the only slayer is what set her apart.

And that has continued onto the comics - Spike is the great and hilarious and everyone else are just the backups. Spike even gets his own comic series (Spike: After The Fall). Why not a Wesley: After The Fall or Illyria: After The Fall?

Despite my discomforts with season7 and season5, I could deal with my feelings and just stay in my B/A love happy place. Until I discovered hard core fandom online. Honestly, I've stayed a way from the majority of it over the years - I have safe zones and maintain friendships with people who are tolerant of the opposite ships (my rl best friend who got me into Buffy is a spuffy girl but she doesn't hate angel).

Some people are downright vile towards B/A which of course makes me feel defensive because I love them. But more than anything I guess I'm always just so frustrated by how many of them have distorted views of the verse.
Many of them take facts and twist them to make it what they want to see and call that the new fact. I often wonder if they've watched the same show I have. They ignore the bad in their favorite character and exalt him as a perfect being.

One person (who is particularly rude) on another forum had a big banner in her signature that read "Spike: Slayer of Slayers" and has him giving this smug grin. And I'm thinking, "So that's something that makes him cool and awesome? That he murdered slayers?" And it annoyed me because that's never what the show was trying to say when they told his story of murdering the slayers.
Yet, this would never have even been a thought in my head if I hadn't come online.


And sorry to make my post so long - I didn't realize I'd be writing an essay. But here's an article I read the other day by Angel editor Mariah Huehner addresses the issues with Spike and Bill Willingham's characterzation of the Angel cast. (From the IDW board)
Wednesday, April 28, 2010

The Spike Conundrum or What the Hell is He Doing?

There were a bunch of different ways I* considered writing about this, but the one that I think makes the most sense is to just start with a deceptively simple question:

Why do we love Spike?

Every Spike fan will likely have a different set of specific reasons. But what I think they’ll all have in common is what a complex and amazing character arc he’s had. To go from where he started to where he is now has been a true hero’s journey.

I’d like to state for the record that I wholeheartedly love Spike. I root for him. I think any story with him in it is better for it. No one the Angel team has an agenda when it comes to his relationships. Well, that’s not entirely true. I think he and Angel should probably settle down in a little house somewhere and just admit that they need one another. The way he and Angel play off each other, complement each other, and force each other to be better, is probably my favorite partnership in both series. But really, the only thing I want to see from Spike is continuing his character evolution. Because as far as he’s come, I don’t think his character is done exploring and growing.

I’ve loved every mistake Spike’s made, even the ones I really hated seeing him make. Sometimes the best characters make the worst decisions.

And he’s making some now.

I know that some of them are really hard to reconcile with who Spike has become. I know they’re unpleasant and uncomfortable. I can’t tell you why just yet, but I can tell you this: It does have a reason, and it will make sense. Issue #35 starts dealing with it more directly and it’s building to something really important for the character that I think you’ll all want to see. Seriously.

To me, what sets Spike apart from Angel, more than anything else, is that he fought for and earned his soul. The journey that led him there is every bit as important as the good he’s done since. Because without that, it just wouldn’t mean as much. It wouldn’t be as significant or important, or downright epic. And that’s true for the next stage of Spike’s development, too.

As an editor, my first responsibility is to the story. As much as I may love a character I have to be willing to let them mess up. Sometimes that means they do things I don’t like personally for the sake of their arc. No one is supposed to like some of the things Spike is doing right now. But he went through a lot in After the Fall and we’re just now seeing some of the fallout. As heroic as Spike is, he’s still flawed. That’s a basic concept in the Whedonverse, all heroes are flawed, and I think we owe it to the character not to forget that. Because I think he is as heroic and important as Angel or Buffy. I think he’s earned the right to make mistakes and come out the other side. With all he’s been through, I think he can handle it. Besides, there’s always more at work here than initially meets the eye. I don’t think anyone wants to see Spike stagnate as a character.

Just as I completely respect canon and know when we’ve done things that may seem to contradict it, nothing is being done accidentally, we’re just expanding on and enriching the world. Everyone on the Angel team has watched the show, I can personally attest to that. Things like the limb-dusting are not arbitrary and it’s explained, at least partially, in issue #33. Along with who James really is and a bunch of other story elements that set up the arc. It’s all part of what we’re exploring. And it’s very much based on what’s been previously established. The same is true for Spike. We know how he’s acting, we know it’s rough, and we’re moving towards something big and incredibly important for him.

To my mind, the worst thing we could do to these characters is not respect them enough to allow them to be flawed and mess up. Right now we’re exploring the consequences of AtF and the time shift that occurred to reset everything. In a world like this, time shenanigans open up a lot of possibilities and the potential for some really strange things to happen. Some of that is certain characters questioning their purpose, redefining their roles, deciding what they’re going to do now, and what they really want. Other characters are growing and changing based on what they’ve been through, like Connor, and we’re allowing them the chance to prove themselves. Each character deserves the same care and attention, and they all deserve a real arc that takes them from one point to another.

Where Spike is headed as a character is going to be one of the most important leaps he’s ever made. On par, I think, with him earning his soul. It's going to be brave and compelling and something that should make every Spike fan proud to call him a hero. I hope you’ll stick around to see it.

* You may be wondering who I am. I edit the current storyline of Angel for IDW. And now you know!


Posted by Mariah at 1:41 PM


Now I haven't read Spike: After The Fall yet (I've only read the Angel volumes) but this was my reaction:
The comment To me, what sets Spike apart from Angel, more than anything else, is that he fought for and earned his soul. kind of rubs me the wrong way.
Just because Angel was initially cursed has he not "earned" his soul? Didn't he fight through trials for Darla?

Other than Spike taking the beating from Glory and his death in Chosen, I can't really think of anything heroic that he's done. (Of course, in the comics, I've only read Angel: After The Fall)

That said, I do agree with this: But really, the only thing I want to see from Spike is continuing his character evolution. Because as far as he’s come, I don’t think his character is done exploring and growing.
I think he is worthy of no longer just being someone's love interest but developing his own purpose.
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Thu May 06, 2010 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Spuffy doesn't threaten me any more than Spangel does. Fans may love the relationship between two characters, but loving it doesn't make it canon. I am firmly convinced that I chose the core relationship that is canon, and that it's not going to come crashing down on me due to developments with Spike or anyone else.

The difference between Spuffy and Spangel, though, is that slash fans know that their ship isn't canon. It's like writing in an AU setting-- fun to explore without needing to defend the way it jives with the series. Spuffy fans are dealing with the possibility of seeing their ship sink. (Objectively, so are we, but I'm not objective.) So they're angry and loud, and there's a lot of them, but no, to me that's still not the same as a threat to B/A.

Interesting article about Spike. I too noticed the line about Spike fighting for his soul, and it bugged me too. A while ago on Whedonesque I remember someone saying "Angel fights for his soul every day", and I really love that thought as a contrast to Spike's situation. I've gone into my views on Spike's soul elsewhere, so I won't here.

Other than that, though, I really appreciate that the editor (of a comic I haven't read) was focusing on the needs of the story. Characters have to develop and change and they have to make mistakes. If Spike's doing that, all the more power to the writers, and I say that with all possible love for the character.
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ljgould
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never been threatened by any 'ship, although there are some that I find more distasteful than others (C/A and B/G, for example).

My problem with Spuffy from the beginning was that it was so abusive -- on both sides, not just one. If the writers were attempting to show how completely lost Buffy was after heaven, it was a valid ploy. Unfortunately, the writers didn't play it right, and too many little fangirls (of all ages -- go figure that one out) decided that it was "romantic" with the whole bad boy and "let's make Spike a good guy" thing. Then came the attempted rape, and once again the fangirls made excuses and said it wasn't really rape. And I saw red.

The "let's make Spike a champion" was just silly and foolish. I've heard that the whole soul-getting thing was planned, but it makes more sense to think it wasn't what he was after -- he wanted the chip out.

Was he a good guy at the end? Yes, he was because he chose to do what was right even though it was hard and he'd likely die. Was he a champion? No, but he was getting there. Unfortunately, on Angel he mostly reverted to type -- annoying, selfish, and out to bug the real Champion.

I have to agree with someone else who said that they had more trouble with the Spufffy fans than with Spuffy itself. I've found the hardcore Spuffies to be rude, offensive and intolerant. I'm not sure why -- maybe they know that their 'ship is doomed.
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ashleyt
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Buffy and Spike have a wonderful friendship and he supported her in a time when she needed it most. What they got from their relationship is the help to be strong again and I like that. But in regards to a romantic relationship, Spike and Buffy were a lot of things but they never had a healthy and happy relationship. I never felt that dealt with the abuse of S6. He's in her heart but so's Xander and Giles.

So from the show (canon) stand point why would it?

In fandom now, that's a different story. While canon works best for us, fandom is run mostly by Spuffy shippers who use their own interpretations of the show bully us. You like the comics? Well you don't like strong woman. You like BA? Well of course you do if you're twelve. You don't like Spike? Well then there's something wrong with you.

I find that it makes me bitter and it does force you to pick a side when pre-fandom you were able to love everyone in different ways.

From a fandom stand point than I'd say yes, I'm always threatened as a BA shipper surrounded by SB shippers.
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Kean
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PostPosted: Fri May 07, 2010 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ashleyt wrote:


In fandom now, that's a different story. While canon works best for us, fandom is run mostly by Spuffy shippers who use their own interpretations of the show bully us. You like the comics? Well you don't like strong woman. You like BA? Well of course you do if you're twelve. You don't like Spike? Well then there's something wrong with you.

I find that it makes me bitter and it does force you to pick a side when pre-fandom you were able to love everyone in different ways.

From a fandom stand point than I'd say yes, I'm always threatened as a BA shipper surrounded by SB shippers.


Agree to infinity!

Just yesterday a Spuffy literally questioned my intelligence because I shipped Bangel and couldn't see that Spike and Buffy were meant for one another. He didn't do it in a kind way either, he was aggressive, rude and belittling. He apologised afterwards but still, how he truly felt had been made clear.

This happens once or twice and you don't even register it but soon enough these incidents start to accumulate and playing nice becomes significantly harder to do.
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ashleyt
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 2:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I met some wonderful SB fans that I consider friends but then there are some who just don't feel that you should ship BA.

All of this comic wank has made me feel like there's something wrong with me because I don't hate the comics. I'm more "meh" about them in general but apparently you have to be up in arms because they're "offensive".
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Arrgh! It just kills me to see my intelligent interesting B/A pals being badmouthed by...lame...people. People who are lame. MUST CURB IMPULSE TO MAKE LANGUAGE MORE COLORFUL.

I just want to make them all sit in the corner while we have cupcakes.
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Kean
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 7:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kairos wrote:
Arrgh! It just kills me to see my intelligent interesting B/A pals being badmouthed by...lame...people. People who are lame. MUST CURB IMPULSE TO MAKE LANGUAGE MORE COLORFUL.

I just want to make them all sit in the corner while we have cupcakes.


This is just fandom right now. I mean I totally handed his arse back to him (he's actually agreeing with me left right and centre at the moment ha!) and at the forum I got ALOT of years and posts onhim but that doesn't take away from the fact he had no problem cussing out an absolute stranger and pretty much belittling their beliefs into nothing.

2 years ago that never would have happened in this fandom, at least not on that board.
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 8:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Okay. I feel much better now. Smile
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Kean
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PostPosted: Sat May 08, 2010 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kairos wrote:
Okay. I feel much better now. Smile


LOL

Cupcake? :p
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ashleyt
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm surprised that the su_herald didn't have meta's to rec in today's issue.

I have to say that as much as I despise Joss sinking to S.Meyer's level, I do appreciate his accuracy. Buffy as Bella would choose Angel (Edward) over Spike (Jacob). Even with Spike standing in between them (which is what I expect in the final arc).
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Ares
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PostPosted: Sun May 09, 2010 6:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow! Genesis sparked off a whole lot of discussion. And good for you, Gensis.

I must say that I agree with most of what has been said.

And we aren't bashing anyone either. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, it's the people who don't allow this freedom that I have trouble with.
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