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Can We Learn Anything from Shooting Scripts?
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Kean
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:03 am    Post subject: Can We Learn Anything from Shooting Scripts? Reply with quote

Someone on another forum posted about this cut scene from Smashed

Quote:
INT. SPIKE'S CRYPT - DOWNSTAIRS - NIGHT

Spike moves about the room. Organized. Preparing.

From a chest of drawers, he pulls out a stun gun, fires it a couple times to make sure it works. Sets in on a table.

From a trunk at the foot of the bed, he brings out a coil of rope, pulling it tight. Puts it on the table, too.

He rustles some more in the trunk, reveals a set of chains. And a handful of padlocks. And a pair of handcuffs. On the table.

He rummages through a stack of records, finds just what he's looking for: an LP of Roxy Music's Avalon. He pops it on a dusty old turntable.

He lights some candles, sets a bouquet of flowers in a vase, sprinkles rose petals on the bed. He looks around, taking in his handiwork, then lets out a long, contented sigh.

SPIKE
There. All ready.
He lets his eyes sweep the room once more, a final look, then

CUT TO:
EXT. GRAVEYARD - CONTINUOUS - NIGHT

Spike runs from his crypt, excited, determined focused.

EXT. ANOTHER PART OF THE GRAVEYARD - NIGHT (LATER)

Spike running much slower, winded. He eases up, starts walking.

EXT. SUNNYDALE STREET - NIGHT

Spike gets to a pay phone, exhausted but still determined.

SPIKE
Now at last, Buffy, you will come
to me, and your destiny wi -- wait.
He searches his pockets -- all of them.

SPIKE (cont'd)
Coulda sworn I brought change.
He keeps searching. Nothing. He checks the coin return slot on the phone. Empty.

SPIKE (cont'd)
Oh, balls.
And he runs back from whence he came, frustrated.


To be honest this shocked me a little bit. You could probably explain the chains, ropes and cuffs as Spikes plans for some kinky sex. The stun gun though tells a very different story me. It screams force. It screams intent that is not necessarily wrapped up in consent.

Given what would happen several episodes later, I find myself looking at the season a bit differently. It seems that SR was on the cards long before it ever happened. So, why would the writers leave it out? If we had seen that I feel Spike would not have been as trusted by the fanbase as he was.

One person mentioned that they were confused by this scene because Spike looked so shocked when Buffy initiated sex, like he hadn't planned it. However, I think he is looking so shocked because he didn't have to force her, which appears to be his intentions that night.

Does this change anything about the character or the season for anyone?

Has anyone read any of the other shooting scripts? Any gems?
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoa. I've read a lot of shooting scripts, but not that one. That's jaw-dropping, honestly. Even I thought the consent issue would be a little more clouded in Spike's mind at this point.

It's not the first time it was suggested that he would rape her-- catch his reaction when she says, "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious"-- but that was much earlier; it could be argued that his real feelings for her hadn't developed yet.

You do have to wonder why the scene was left out, when it changed so much about his season arc. Maybe the change was intentional and they didn't want anything that incriminating. Maybe the ambiguity suited them better.

Nice find, Kean!
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Kean
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kairos wrote:
Whoa. I've read a lot of shooting scripts, but not that one. That's jaw-dropping, honestly. Even I thought the consent issue would be a little more clouded in Spike's mind at this point.

It's not the first time it was suggested that he would rape her-- catch his reaction when she says, "The only chance you had with me was when I was unconscious"-- but that was much earlier; it could be argued that his real feelings for her hadn't developed yet.

You do have to wonder why the scene was left out, when it changed so much about his season arc. Maybe the change was intentional and they didn't want anything that incriminating. Maybe the ambiguity suited them better.

Nice find, Kean!


I'm inclined to think that we were supposed to trust Spike throughout the season and then SR was to shock us back to the reality of the situation. It didn't quite come off that way though, with so many people blaming Buffy and supporting Spike.

I can't decide if this makes he even more of a vamp or more of a bastard.
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kean wrote:


I'm inclined to think that we were supposed to trust Spike throughout the season and then SR was to shock us back to the reality of the situation. It didn't quite come off that way though, with so many people blaming Buffy and supporting Spike.

I can't decide if this makes he even more of a vamp or more of a bastard.


It's a great find, I've actually seen it before but I find your words intriguing. I never thought we the audience were supposed to trust Spike. Buffy, yes, Dawn sure but not we in the audience. Because we also saw him as his FIRST priority, trying to kill a girl when he thought the chip wasn't working.

I never did understand the Spike/Spuffy fan reaction of betrayal and screams of out of character because Spike tried to rape Buffy. It was perfectly in character for him to try to force her and force the issue because that's what he always does with every female in his life.

Nor was it out of character for Buffy to not fight back as strongly as she eventually did - we've seen that before too.

And totally off the topic of this script find, one I always found intriguing came from "Prophesy Girl", which you can find here.

The interesting bit, to me, is at the end, after Buffy defeats the Master:

INT. LIBRARY - CONTINUOUS

And he falls, glass littered about him, and is impaled on the upended shard.

Everything stops. There is a rending kind of SHRIEK from the Hellmouth and the demon tentacles withdraw. Our people are still, staring in shock. The Master twitches, his mouth open in a scream he'll never make.

He more explodes into dust than crumbles, leaving most of a crumbly skeleton lying where he was. He looks like excavated remains.

And then it's quiet.

DISSOLVE TO:

EXT. NEAR THE SCHOOL

Collin stands, looking toward the school. Vaguely disappointed, he turns and heads away toward the trees.

INT. LIBRARY - A COUPLE OF MINUTES LATER

Buffy enters slowly, Xander and a now-human Angel following. Everyone gathers in the middle of the room, a bit dazed.


That is the only mention of a now human Angel, there is nothing to suggest that Angel, let alone anyone else is aware that he's now human but it does beg the question, had this been the only season, was the plan to make Angel human decided all the way back then? Is that how the idea of shanshue came about? I dunno but it's intriguing to me.

-Luc
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The Librarian
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 10:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Buffy enters slowly, Xander and a now-human Angel following. Everyone gathers in the middle of the room, a bit dazed.


Interesting!

It's clearly been included as a make-up direction (human face Angel as opposed to the vamp face direction a few lines before), but it could be a Freudian slip on Joss's part. If it wasn't though, I can see it giving him the idea, even as he penned the words. It's certainly the sort of phrase that would immediately send me off on a long epic and possibly tragic tale!

Thanks for showing us, Luc.

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Kean
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 12:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:


It's a great find, I've actually seen it before but I find your words intriguing. I never thought we the audience were supposed to trust Spike. Buffy, yes, Dawn sure but not we in the audience. Because we also saw him as his FIRST priority, trying to kill a girl when he thought the chip wasn't working.

I never did understand the Spike/Spuffy fan reaction of betrayal and screams of out of character because Spike tried to rape Buffy. It was perfectly in character for him to try to force her and force the issue because that's what he always does with every female in his life.


I agree. I have never trusted Spike (I still don't) and as far as I can see, all of the horrific things he has done are very much in character with him.

I just wonder sometimes were we led into that bathroom scene by the hand? As our fandom demonstrates perfectly, a lot of people believed in the good of Spike. That it outweighed the bad. I read somewhere (I can't remember now) that SR was supposed to be a wake-up call to the fans. That Spike was not a care bear with fangs. He was muzzled, that was all. Of course, that would have been far more effective technique if they hadn't given him a soul immediately after this, making the distinction between Souled and Unsouled more difficult to decipher.

Quote:
Nor was it out of character for Buffy to not fight back as strongly as she eventually did - we've seen that before too.


I would say it wasn't out of character for an attack victim to be frozen and not fight back. But in terms of Buffy having not fought back before, can you give some examples?

Quote:
INT. LIBRARY - A COUPLE OF MINUTES LATER

Buffy enters slowly, Xander and a now-human Angel following. Everyone gathers in the middle of the room, a bit dazed. [/i]



Yeah, I'd seen that before too. What I'd like to know is how he became human? It's so randomly there that I wonder if it's just a fanon thing?

Does anyone own the actual scripts? I know they used to sell them in my local bookshop.
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 01, 2010 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:

I never did understand the Spike/Spuffy fan reaction of betrayal and screams of out of character because Spike tried to rape Buffy. It was perfectly in character for him to try to force her and force the issue because that's what he always does with every female in his life.


It's understandable inasmuch as they had already formed the idea of Spike as an extraordinary noble vampire who loved Buffy, and didn't want it taken away from them. When all else fails, you blame the writing, and there's certainly no way to fanwank away an attempted rape.

"Seeing Red" really should have been a wake-up call, but the writers may not have realized how much the fans can get attached to a certain theme...and maybe the writers got a little too attached to that theme, themselves, leading them to bring Spike back as a sympathetic character at exactly the wrong time.
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kean wrote:


I would say it wasn't out of character for an attack victim to be frozen and not fight back. But in terms of Buffy having not fought back before, can you give some examples?


The most recent in relation to "Seeing Red" was in "Tabula Rasa". When she gets her memories back she is so emotionally stricken that she falls to the ground and doesn't fight back or even try to protect herself from the vamps that are attacking her. She is overwhelmed and devastated by the return of so many emotions that she is unable to fight back and even her slayer instinct doesn't help her here.

To me, the attempted rape is similar to this because the attack is so personal in nature, so unexpected to Buffy and so far from the types of attacks she's used to dealing with as a slayer that her delay in kicking Spike away makes perfect sense to me. She's not responding initially as a slayer but as a woman being sexually assaulted. It's personal in a way the day to day vampire attacks really aren't.

-Luc
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Kean
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 02, 2010 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:
Kean wrote:


I would say it wasn't out of character for an attack victim to be frozen and not fight back. But in terms of Buffy having not fought back before, can you give some examples?


The most recent in relation to "Seeing Red" was in "Tabula Rasa". When she gets her memories back she is so emotionally stricken that she falls to the ground and doesn't fight back or even try to protect herself from the vamps that are attacking her. She is overwhelmed and devastated by the return of so many emotions that she is unable to fight back and even her slayer instinct doesn't help her here.

To me, the attempted rape is similar to this because the attack is so personal in nature, so unexpected to Buffy and so far from the types of attacks she's used to dealing with as a slayer that her delay in kicking Spike away makes perfect sense to me. She's not responding initially as a slayer but as a woman being sexually assaulted. It's personal in a way the day to day vampire attacks really aren't.

-Luc


Sorry, I didn't clarify myself in that post. I meant it was in keeping with Buffy as an attack victim to be frozen. She acted as any woman would act, not a slayer. Basically, I totally agree with you.
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racheltng
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 9:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love the shooting scripts! It gives more insight into both what the writers were thinking and the characters. I wish we had more deleted scenes on the DVDs. I tend to think of cut scenes as canon, just something we didn't get to see. Here's my fave, from Harsh Light of Day:

BUFFY
So what I'm wondering is, does this
always happen? Sleep with a guy and
he goes all evil?


WILLOW
Well, from what I understand, pretty
much. But it won't always be like that.
You've just had some really bad luck.


BUFFY
I don't know, Will. Bad luck just happens.
I made this happen.


WILLOW
Well, why shouldn't you, if it's what
you want? I mean, as long as it's safe.
Oh, Buffy, it was safe, wasn't it?


BUFFY
It was safe. It's not that. It's that the
whole time, I kept thinking, hey, look
at me with someone who isn't Angel.
Look how much I'm not hung up on
Angel anymore. Look how this is not
all about Angel. God, how come I
didn't see it?


It explains the whole Parker thing much better. She really wasn't rushing into something new; she was trying to forget something old. It's very true to life. Many of us have done similar things on the rebound, or so I'm told...
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bringing this thread back because Kean and I were talking elsewhere about a certain shooting script, and she went and blew my mind with her conclusions about it (isn't that just like her, the ruffian), and I wanted to hear what others thought.

There's some division among B/A shippers about why Spike went on his quest after attempting to rape Buffy. My stance was always that he intended to get his soul, in the hopes that it would bring him into her favor and reignite their affair. It wasn't so much a close reading of the text that brought me there as the statements from the writers saying that Spike had always intended to get his soul, and everything beforehand hinting at the object being the removal at the chip was a mislead. Also, Season 7 never had Spike indicating that his plans had gone awry, or any other character questioning it.

Then Kean showed me this:

Quote:

INT. SPIKE'S CRYPT - CONTINUOUS

Spike explodes, his emotions boiling over. He crushes the glass of vodka in his hand. He stands there seething, at war with himself.

CLEM (O.S.)
Um... knock knock?

Spike glances over. Clem is standing in the doorway, holding a bucket of Hot Wings. He gives a little wave, smiles awkwardly.

CLEM
I was just in the neighborhood and I
thought, you know, there's a
Nightrider marathon on the TV, so,
uh...

He holds up the bucket of chicken with a grin.

CLEM (cont'd)
I got Hot Wings!

Spike stands there, trembling, lost.

SPIKE
What have I done?
(then)
Why didn't I do it? What has she
done to me?

CLEM
She-done who?

Spike looks away, ashamed.

CLEM (cont'd)
Oh. The Slayer, huh? Gosh.
(sympathetic)
She break up with you again?

SPIKE
We were never together. Not really.
She wouldn't lower herself that far.

CLEM
She's a sweet girl, Spike, but hey.
Issues. And no wonder, with the
coming back from the grave and
whatnot. I had this cousin, got
resurrected by some kooky shaman --
who-boy! Was that a mess!

SPIKE
Why do I feel this way?

CLEM
(shrugs)
Love's a funny thing.

SPIKE
Is that what this is?

CLEM
Well, I don't know. Drinking,
breaking stuff -- how's your appetite?
You been eating?

SPIKE
I can feel it. Squirming inside my
head.

CLEM
Love?

SPIKE
The chip. Little Jiminy Cricket,
gnawing bits and chunks.

Spike puts his fingers to his heads probing harshly as if he's going to gouge the chip out with his bare hands. Clem eyes him with concern.

CLEM
(re: Spike's head)
Maybe a wet cloth...?

SPIKE
Everything used to be so clear.
Slayer. Vampire. Vampire kills
Slayer, sucks her dry, picks his
teeth with her bones.

CLEM
(queasy)
Metaphorically?

SPIKE
That's how it's always been. I've
tasted the life of two Slayers. But
with Buffy...
(hating himself)
This isn't the way it's supposed to
be. It's the chip. Steel and wires
and silicon. It won't let me be a
monster. And I can't be a man. I'm
nothing.

Spike's self-loathing hits an all time low. Clem gives him an encouraging pat on the shoulder.

CLEM
Hey. Come on now, Mr. Negative. You
never know what's just around the
corner. Things change.

Spike considers that, his wheels turning.

SPIKE
They do.
(a beat)
If you make them.

Clem grins, slapping him on the back happily.

CLEM
There you go! Bright side! Chin up!

SPIKE
She thinks she knows me. She thinks
she knows who I am. What I'm capable
of. She has no idea. I wasn't always
this way. It won't be easy, but I
can be like I was. Before they
castrated me. Before...
(a beat)
Then she'll see who I really am.

Spike smiles darkly, his eyes dancing with secret schemes. He grabs a nearby duffle bag - starts throwing stuff into it. Clem totally misses Spike's sinister intent.

CLEM
Now you're talking!

Clem smiles brightly, offering Spike a delicious drumstick.

CLEM(cont'd)
Hot wing?


...And I was all like, "Crap, you're right!" These lines and stage directions just don't sound like they're hiding any true motivation beneath Spike's "sinister intent".

How do we reconcile this with the claims of the team, and with the canon episodes that aired? Or has it never been a problem for you?
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Kean
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2012 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I said to yourself Kairos, I have never believed that Spike didn't intend to get his chip removed. The creative team can say what they like, the text does not support "He was always going to get a soul" theory. Canon trumps even Joss' word. He can't retroactively change it in some interview. It only becomes canon because Spike says so in Beneath You, but there is nothing in his actions prior to that conversation to say that his soul was what he truly sought.
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Kairos
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 3:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's exactly what bothers me - if we remove the interviews in question and only look at this script and the aired episodes, we're left with a Spike who has been lying about his intentions since the incident and up to the present day.

And that is wretched. I'm not Spike's biggest fan, but I never wanted to see him stoop so low. I don't think I could ever forgive him, and considering that the narrative clearly expects me to, that poses a problem for me as a fan.
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ljgould
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 5:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I remember the night that I watched Spike take off for parts unknown, and I remember being sure that he was going to find someone to remove the chip so that he could come back and get his revenge. Unfortunately, fate had a different plan.

However, you have to recognize that even with his soul, Spike is still a vampire. He's still looking out for number one, and if that means lying about his intentions, then he'll lie. Besides, think of it from his POV...he's still dependant on the Scoobies for his safety and food. What would happen if he said, "Oh, by the way, I left to get the chip out so I could come back and kill all of you, especially Buffy!"

I think the base of this issue is that someone decided Buffy and Spike should have the grand romance, and therefore, needed Spike to be a good guy. Didn't work in my opinion, but it did for a lot of fans.
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ital_gal
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 09, 2012 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think I've been boring on about this forever, but for me, and every single time I ever watched this episode, it was always completely a given that Spike was going to get the chip removed. That's how it played and seems to be how it was written. He pretty much says so as he rides off. I couldn't figure out why people were under the impression that he was going to get his soul back, until I got more involved in fandom and heard it was because Joss said so....

Honestly, if you watched the episode in a vacuum, with no knowledge of what the writers were saying, how could you come to any any other conclusion?

Sure if you want, canon is what Joss says its supposed to be, but shouldn't the episode tell the story, and not the retcom-ing after the fact...

Plus, what wasted opportunity -- spike back as the big bad...
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