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B/A vs the hypocrisy and wank!
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lmblack21
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Joined: 07 May 2010
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 6:10 pm    Post subject: B/A vs the hypocrisy and wank! Reply with quote

Or why B/A is still the best ship! (For Cheryl Heart )

So this is meant to be a discussion of the "cons" against B/A as we've no doubt all seen from the anti's and to discuss amongst ourselves - wank free - why it's logic fail. Sounds like fun, no? And this is about the arguments, not the people putting the arguments out, so let's play the game, not the players, k?

I'm gonna start with the biggest, most recent one and point out why it's LOGIC FAIL in epic, neon-flashing ways.

So up first: Buffy/Angel and the snarky "glowhypnol", Buffy/Angel had non-consensual sex and OMG, the horrors, her agency was ROBBED and it's an affront to all feminists.

This argument might sound more sincere or honest if not for one thing. "Something Blue". I have never seen a B/S shipper say that the physical intimacy that Buffy and Spike have while being really MAGICALLY ROOFIED was offensive, robbing Buffy and Spike of their agency (though it totally did), or an affront to the feminist pov of the show.

I can only assume that's because it's always different when it involves Spike or B/S. Instead I see icons made from Something Blue, I see fans of it talk about how it was foreshadowing, hot, and absolutely hinted at something deeper.

LOGIC FAIL.

Let's take a look at the two.

Buffy/Angel in the season 8 comics:

When Buffy sees that it's Angel under the Twilight mask, she immediately tries to stake him. When Willow mentions that Buffy should be staking him but the universe won't let her, it's clear that THIS is what that means. Not that Buffy is being prevented from trying because she's been robbed of free will, but that Angel is also super-powered and invincible.

While Buffy and Angel fight, the glow begins, but the fight doesn't stop. It's Angel's words that get through to Buffy. It's the emotions, not any outside influence. Because, as Buffy herself admits, she knows he's right.

Additionally, Angel knows that Buffy can walk away from it. She can CHOOSE to not give in to her feelings for him. That's why he tells her that he's afraid - afraid she'll leave and not try to see if they can be together and have it be the right thing for once. That shows very definitively that she had FREE WILL. She made a choice, for Angel, as she always has. And it is Buffy who makes that first move - just like she did in "End of Days"/"Chosen", in fact.

After they have sex - and all the way through to the end of the series - Buffy NEVER shows any conflicted feelings about the fact that she had sex with Angel. She regrets the fallout, but there is absolutely nothing at all that indicates she felt it wasn't a choice that she made freely (see issue 40 for more proof on that), that she was "glow-hypnoled" or that she was disgusted by it. Quite the opposite in fact!

And after the sex, she immediately realizes they can't stay because they have to go back to their reality to save her friends.

Compare that to the Buffy and Spike magical roofie experience.

Prior to them KISSING, they were physically fighting - because they hated each other. They wanted to kill each other. There are no loving feelings or history.

WILLOW'S will is done and the very next second they are kissing, touching intimately, and making googly eyes at each other.

When the spell is BROKEN, they are both horrified, scrambling away from each other and wiping their mouths, spitting on the ground. Buffy is SO horrified in fact that she mentions the possibility of needing a forgetting spell later. And did I mention that while they were under the magical roofie effects, Buffy didn't give a squat about her friends who were under attack?

So, let's recap, shall we? With pictures!

The REAL magical roofie/intimacy by an outside forcible taking of free will goes to........

Buffy/Spike!!!

1) They hate each other prior to the spell that takes away their will and forces someone else's will on them, thus making them engage in physical acts of intimacy, several times.

Magical roofie!:



2) While magically roofied, Buffy ignores her friends who are in grave danger because her will was taken away and all she cares about is Spike.

Magical roofie!:



3) When the spell is broken, Buffy and Spike return to themselves and both are horrified, disgusted and wishing to forget about it.

Magical roofie!:

Horror:



Disgust:



Trauma:




Buffy/Angel in the comics:

1) They have always loved each other, wanted to be together prior to their season 8 reconnection. This is evident in season 8 as well in fact.

2) It's made clear that it's Angel's words and not some outside force that convinces Buffy to take a chance and give in to her feelings for Angel, thus leading to sex. She can say no (As Angel fears she will), and she is the one to initiate contact/kissing. Which is not out of character for her.

3) The immediate aftermath shows no horror, no "awakening" from a glow induced act, Buffy is happy and basking but fearful that something must be coming over the horizon.

4) She returns to save her friends immediately upon seeing that they are in trouble.

5) At no time does she indicate with word, phrasing or facial expression that this was not her choice - quite the opposite.

Dialogue from AFTER the sex with Angel:

Buffy refers to that time as "a moment of peace". She also says "Afterglow" is something she is "also feeling".

She questions Angel to make sure they really DID have sex:

Buffy: But we did have the sex part, right?

Angel: Yes, we had the sex part. Mother of Mercy, we had the sex part."


Buffy's response to THAT is:

Buffy: Good, because quite honestly I'm still feeling....well, satisfied. And I wanna make sure we're not somehow standing here in my mind or in some dream where I'm the snowglobe at the end of St. Elsewhere."

Buffy is happy and satisfied and wanting to make sure it really happened - because she had a moment of peace, of pleasure, connection, love - all the things she only ever gets from Angel and she doesn't want it to have all just been a dream.

Glowhypnol? I don't think so. Magical roofied Buffy/Spike? Definitely. THAT is why one is hot/romantic (B/A) and one is disturbing, sick and wrong (B/S).

So the next time anyone brings up the Buffy/Angel sex, remember the truth. If there was ANY intellectual honesty in the arguments, they would rail against the B/S scenes in "Something Blue" and argue the moral implications of robbing Buffy and Spike of their agency. Otherwise it's hypocritical wank that is REALLY about sour shipping grapes because once again, Buffy chose Angel and not their boy. Although you'd think they'd be used to that by now...

Next post will be about how Buffy always means what she says unless she is saying something less than positive about Spike or something positive about Angel. Then she's lying to herself, in denial, or being defensive to hide her real feelings. Because that's the feminist way to view Buffy's own words!!

Anyone else wanna play?

-Luc
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taaroko
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Joined: 31 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread makes me insanely happy. I wasn't even thinking of "Something Blue" in my reasons for disregarding the ridiculous idea that Buffy and Angel didn't both wholeheartedly consent to everything that happened in 34. But it fits perfectly. I think part of the reason nobody references "Something Blue", though, is that it was played for laughs there (because the idea of Buffy and Spike happily together is just *that* hilariously absurd).
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Kean
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Joined: 04 Feb 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So much win in one thread. Heart
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lmblack21
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Joined: 07 May 2010
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

taaroko wrote:
This thread makes me insanely happy. I wasn't even thinking of "Something Blue" in my reasons for disregarding the ridiculous idea that Buffy and Angel didn't both wholeheartedly consent to everything that happened in 34. But it fits perfectly. I think part of the reason nobody references "Something Blue", though, is that it was played for laughs there (because the idea of Buffy and Spike happily together is just *that* hilariously absurd).


Laughing

I aim to make folks "insanely" happy! Just wait till I finish getting all I need for your B/A Always thread. I do go on about my favorite couple.

And I agree that the reason to not take "Something Blue" too seriously is that it's played for laughs and yet, I've seen arguments from some of these same people that doing that is also a disservice to the rape culture and the feminist message so I'm gonna call foul now on giving Something Blue and the loss of free will in that sexual byplay a free pass.

Especially when certain quarters will not let die the idea that the glow has somehow robbed Buffy of her agency when everything in the text disproves that. Because you're right that we don't need the comparison to show how wrong that idea is, but it's still fun to do cause it really *hammers* home that point. For those that can't see the wank for the trees. Exhibit A, B/S = magical roofies, loss of agency, sexual assault, icky, disturbing, gross. Exhibit B, B/A = the complete opposite of that.

Kean wrote:
So much win in one thread. Heart


*bows* Thank ye.

-Luc
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dorotea
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Joined: 13 Aug 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luc - I love your post.

Just want to add my 2 cents here - look at issue 36... Do I have to comment ? That line about the heart and the ship... any time you feel angry or desperate - just remember it.







But this ought to be my favorite - and this is Joss' writing. This is his message.



I think the 'group mentality' of a certain ship is captured perfectly.


Last edited by dorotea on Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lmblack21
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Joined: 07 May 2010
Posts: 280

PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dorotea wrote:
Luc - I love your post.

Just want to add my 2 cents here - look at issue 36... Do I have to comment ? That line about the heart and the ship... any time you feel angry or desperate - just remember it.









I love the visuals. That look on Buffy's face when she's telling Angel that he gave her perfection is exactly how she looks at him in "Chosen". The Angels, the hair - even Angel.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us
-Luc
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dorotea
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yes, looks like Jeanty re-watched the Chosen episode a few times - or maybe got these frames when he was drawing 36.

And I just want to say that whatever pain the comics brought ( and I don't believe it was for nothing - Shanshu for goodness sake - I want that Shanshu ! ) they also brought these images and these messages - the line about the heart and the ship was priceless. Even if you want to take the comics with a grain of salt - they at least gave you a lot of answers ( including the one from #40 - about Buffy considering her and Spike break up back then in S6 and never being a couple after that.)


Last edited by dorotea on Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dorotea wrote:
Oh yes, looks like Jeanty re-watched the Chosen episode a few times - or maybe got these frames when he was drawing 36.

And I just want to say that whatever pain the comics brought ( and I don't believe it was for nothing ) they also brought these images and these messages - the line about the heart and the ship was priceless. Even if you want to take the comics with a grain of salt - they at least gave you a lot of answers ( including the one from #40 - about Buffy considering her and Spike break up back then in S6 and never being a couple after that.)


Oh the comics have brought a lot - total and absolute reaffirmation of B/A and total, blindingly obvious disregard of B/S.

For those two things alone, they've been worth the price of admission as long as you don't take the story too seriously. Laughing

-Luc
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dorotea
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

lmblack21 wrote:


Oh the comics have brought a lot - total and absolute reaffirmation of B/A and total, blindingly obvious disregard of B/S.

For those two things alone, they've been worth the price of admission as long as you don't take the story too seriously. Laughing

-Luc


I would say - take the story as a story told in a different media. Maybe I am being to harsh on poor SA after all - comics have their own rules - different from written story. Joss' world has its own rules too. And I am slowly getting used to it now. Everything is shifting, yet I have the feeling that there would be no despair in the end.
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lmblack21
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dorotea wrote:
lmblack21 wrote:


Oh the comics have brought a lot - total and absolute reaffirmation of B/A and total, blindingly obvious disregard of B/S.

For those two things alone, they've been worth the price of admission as long as you don't take the story too seriously. Laughing

-Luc


I would say - take the story as a story told in a different media. Maybe I am being to harsh on poor SA after all - comics have their own rules - different from written story. Joss' world has its own rules too. And I am slowly getting used to it now. Everything is shifting, yet I have the feeling that there would be no despair in the end.


Well you know what Allie told me - that Joss loves these characters and relationships and this is how he shows that love - by milking the drama. Which says a lot about Spike and B/S which have been basically ignored. Better to be loved too much than die a slow, painful death due to neglect and disinterest.

-Luc
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sybil
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I still think that the “unholy glow” was the key to the trap, as DOROTEA, described Twilight (plane) to be, comparable to Cordy’s place of “higher being-ness," while“glowhynol” as some kind of roofie drug is completely off the mark. Roofies (rohypnol aka drug Flunitrazepam, is a sedative and a (dangerous) black out results in the inability to remember events at all—which is not what we saw. They were AWAKE and ECSTATIC with joy and felt the warmth and completeness of peace (afterglow) with each other, yet it was so perfect in what was given and received, it could not be construed to be “just sex”—they each gave and received the self/other as one union. Buffy even said the experience was so beyond sex she wasn’t even sure they HAD sex.

To Spike, Buffy said: We have this. Does IT have to mean anything? So IT can be the sex OR the relationship. Either way….YIKES! Even with a soul Spike said to Angel that having sex often with a person was a relationship. Yeah. Rosie Palm and her five sisters is a family, too. Snerk.

She may not be able to look at Angel, but she cares that he will be cared for and she wants to be sure that Faith has the strength (commitment) to stick with it--Buffy hasn't had a day off from being the slayer since she was called. i think Faith saying she was all Angel's got only suggests to me: no guarantees. I think Buffy has some faith in Angel to 'come back from this" because he a. gave up paradise for her--shoulder to shoulder they went back to the fight b. he came back to her from hell. When SHE is ready, Angel will come to her, whatever shape he is in--that is her faith.

When Spike 'came back' it was too important for his ego to see Buffy. Angel in heaven or hell or out of his mind "finds himself when he finds Buffy."

And do we think she dressed so feminine for the business of meeting with Faith? Snail mail still exists, after all.
HUGS!
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dorotea
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Luc, sybil -

I would understand if you are feeling too upset to join us - but we are prepping for AtF and S8 re-read on Joyous Rebellion soon. Would I be able to cajole you into joining eventually ?

I think we might have fun discussing the comics WITHOUT any wank coming as we push along. And we might even come to like them more ( and gain immunity from further wank.)
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sybil
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 26, 2011 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh yea…did we notice that Spike is on the ROOF and EASE. (R oofies) And doesn't Buffy sleep in the "just living room" that was brought up in Once More With Feeling? And do we not hear it isn't easy to keep the ship ‘balanced' "Up There?" as in buggy?

Sorry to double post; thought of it after the thought. After Razz
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cheryl
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 12:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, lol, what can I say? You always manage to bring a huge smile to my face and rock my world. I LOVE this thread. Love it!! Heart

I can not wait to see what you come up with next, I can't wait til we get to the wank that accompanies Angel...this will be so much fun. Thank you, Luc. You are the Queen of keeping it all connected.


Elaborating on this particular wank a little bit? If Buffy had been unable to consent, it is likely that somewhere along the way, from the issue of them having sex (Yeah, it really was an entire issue of B/A sex) up until the very last issue, that we would have got something from Buffy about not having that choice. We saw first hand how upset she was in season 7 being around Spike after just an attempted rape. There was none of that at all. Nada.

Instead we see Buffy tell Angel that he had *better* come back and then we see her face light up when he does arrive as Twilight. We also see her worry over his safety to Giles by exclaiming "Angel could die"

Sorry but "no can do" with the Buffy was raped metaphor. It is interesting to me that a lot of this wank is always centered on characters other than Spike, who had a *true* attempted rape encounter. I mean think about it, here is the wank that surrounds the characters since Spike's unfortunate " misunderstanding or attempted rape.

Xander is an attempted rapist despite being possessed by a wild animal.
Willow is guilty of rape because she removed a memory from Tara.
Now Angel raped Buffy with a sexy glow, lol, when will it ever end?
It seems fairly obvious that this type of wank was created to cover up the *real-true* actions of a character who really did try to rape a character. Spike.
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Kean
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2011 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This tread is just...nifty!

Ooooh! We should each offer up our main B/A grievances, you know the ones that each time they are brought up you just want to throw things? Yes, those ones! And then the rest of us explain why that argument is invalid and B/A PWNS ALL.
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