Blood Roses Community Forum Index

"It started with a girl..."


 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

David at Wizard Con on eternal B/A love!
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> B/A Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Thu Mar 12, 2015 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I do understand the need to see this couple in daily contact and situations, which might seem "normal" and "human" and guess what--that IS the curse's cost that season 3 was talking about it. I do understand this even if the great moments with B/A are not just "epic" and include the gentle things, the hard things they actually do face and hash out, and would point out that Spuffy is nothing but this "little stuff" with barely an epic save by Spike anywhere. Buffy did her own saving, except Chosen, when Spike finally understood TO DO NOTHING and LET HER; and STILL it doesn't work out because Buffy isn't just a woman having sex--which is the "epic fail" of most narratives' use of females to the main male hero. OH, yeah...the show isn't SPIKE THE SLAYER LAYER.

Second we ARE given proof of B/A in every single season, by name or symbol. What you are saying simply is this. Warriors who are parted can't maintain a love relationship when they are deployed (over and over) to duty out of sight or site of each other and especially in hot wars; so Spuffy "automatically" is the default "love affair" when 7 billion other human beings and untold species of demons "who aren't so bad" have also been shown as possible "love interests" for Buffy. She really doesn't seem to be interested LONG TERM in any of them.

A man (here in NE) who had a soldier wife said that sex by a partner in war "didn't count"--it is a drive toward life in the face and in the middle of nothing but death. I think this guy has a clear bead on 'how it is" until she could come home (safe) to him.

It's ALWAYS B/A who want each other and it is also B/A that respects the different reasons they personally fight--and it wasn't just to get "into her pants."

Each has "something to learn" in their own journeys and Spike was once on the way to figure that out , only to have the dearth of plot drag him back to the co-dependent crutch status each provides the other to nowhere.

Besides, "lesson Riley" failed because he couldn't grasp that her life wasn't about him. After all he had seen she had to handle, SHE was supposed to follow HIS journey rather to grasp his OWN included supporting hers. Even if it was in some jungle in S.A.

And BTW, it was Xander who thought she should run after him to prove something to HIM, when she has the duty none of these pepole has. She was Chosen without a real choice. Riley can "quit" any time he wants. So can Spike, who ALSO LIKES being a vampire. ANd that is the problem telling me what Buffy has to learn from Spike--not the violence of their coupling.

Simply. There is a prophecy that clearly "belongs" to Angel. Also, it is Angel who hopes not only for his humanity, but for his mortality, which holds more promise for this couple than "hanging around" for a "turn."

THIS season's use of Spike this way (attainable) with this woman in a world of "attainable" 50 percent males and plenty of species of creatures posed as "virile" are excluded specificallly because Buffy isn't getting over Angel any time soon. I do include other species, including gods, to expand the concept of Buffy's actual "available" and "attainable," as exploration of her sexuality is also an exploration of "attainable" versus "transformative" when sex is love's expresion of the whole of the self, not just the insecure, frustrated, lonely, mind and the primal need of humans for the nurture of touch.

"Settling" for a "heroine"--is only about a protagonist and is simply not what comics are about; hence the intrinsic fail in the structural journey actual humans (heroically dare) endure--who makes mistakes is strictly "battle fatigue" and not the flowering of some awakening to the grand love of her life. It's laughable. She also is not settting up a household to develop something. She continues to make mistakes but hasn't the wisdom to correct them or remotely LEARN from them in targeting the "curse" that keeps her apart from Angel. ANd half of that curse is Buffy's choices, including that last one. THAT is what I am tired of.

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 2:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

guys...just an intermission from discussing the B.S. storyline in the comics.

I had a link bookmarked regarding Joss' interviews, probably around S7.
I'm sure you are familiar with most it. Anyways, if anyone is willing to give insights on JW's quote, kindly do so. Because I have my own thoughts regarding on this.

Here are the highlights that I wanted to be enlightened:

Quote:
IGNFF: In retrospect, looking back at season six, it tonally existed for a reason – that's where the character was at...

WHEDON: That's why that tonal shift. It wasn't like UPN said, "Make it different," or we had a feeling that UPN wanted to do things differently. That was where we went in our heads for season six. The funny thing is, I came out of season five and I said to the writers, "You know what..." – I looked at the season as a whole, and I would do this every year – "here's what I loved, I'm really proud, we did great work. Here's what we could do better on. Here's what we need more of." One of the things was, "I feel like we need to be funnier." And then I came up with season six. But it was true. I was like, "You know, season five, we got very much into this one space. And there was a feeling – I like that anarchic feel we had in the earlier seasons, of bouncing back and forth between comedy and tragedy. Let's try and get back to that." That was why we had the nerds. But at the same time, bringing somebody back from the dead is not something you do lightly. I had done it before, so I knew. I'm not talking about Buffy, I'm talking about Ripley.

IGNFF: The original draft.

WHEDON: Yeah.

IGNFF: It seemed like the shifting in season six was to extremes...

WHEDON: You know, it was very extreme. We really went to a dark, dark place. We got sort of... people talk about the creative meltdown. I've said this before, that I think when people look at the seventh season, as a story, they'll understand season six better. I also understand that it got too depressing for too long, but I don't think all of my instincts are perfect. In fact, the interesting thing was that Sarah took Marti Noxon aside and said, "You know what? I feel depressed. I feel like I want Buffy back. I feel like we've run on this path, and I feel like it's time to sort of reclaim her." I had the exact same conversation with Marti on the same day. So she had her conversation with Sarah and came back to me, "You're not going to believe this." That was always the way it was.

IGNFF: Well, the interesting thing was to compare that to season seven. Looking at season seven, it started off completely different than what it evolved into. Because I remember you had made comments that it's going to be a return to roots, and Sunnydale High is opening again. But, tonally, it seemed like Buffy almost regressed back into the dark things that one had thought she'd grown out of over the course of season six.

WHEDON: Well, the problem was season six took us to a dark place, and that dark place we lost Buffy – and I think that's why people didn't respond to it, because they always had Buffy to lean on. No matter how sad she got, she was still Buffy. In six she was really questioning her very identity. People didn't want that. That upset them. It was like they didn't have their anchor. So it didn't matter if you have something tight or interesting or thematic or funny – they wanted that anchor back. I get that. In season seven, it wasn't like we weren't going to put her through her paces. Buffy in pain is a staple of the show from season one. As [David] Greenwalt and I told each other very early on – "Buffy in pain, story more interesting. Buffy not in pain, story not interesting." So we couldn't just have her be like, "La-di-da, do-di-do, all is well," for a season, because – hey, show not about that. The dark place we took her to was about, "I'm accepting my power, my responsibility, and my leadership, and those are hard things to deal with." So, inevitably, she got kind of bummed out, because that's how you tell the story. The hero goes through something and then they resolve it.


It's just my personal belief that Joss must have this "ridiculous" thought that being in pain is equivalent to "interesting stories". Well, I don't need to reiterate my feelings about Joss' right now. But, the gist is, this guy is not perfect. Even himself, admits that. (I give him credits for admitting that, though Smile )

Joss is also human like us... only he has a gift of storytelling that he could turn a serious psychological topics such as "split" or "multiple" personalities, or borderline psychosis into something "humorous" and "funny". Geez, he initially conceived of S6 as "funny", only to realize that bringing someone from the dead and making her like a sexual zombie, was not really funny at all.

Based on this interview, Joss has the same treatment of Buffy's character similar to Angel's..."torture them with pain". I have no disagreement that in every story, pain and angst are made to add twists, conflicts and drama. But the issue raised in BTVS S6, just like has been mentioned in the interview, was done in EXTREME.

And which ever is EXTREME is ALWAYS NOT GOOD. That's my basis why everything happened from S6 - S7 were "unconvincing" on my part. This is why I also continuously wonder why Joss and his comic writers prefer to write Buffy's character as if Buffy's life started on S6???

Did Joss plan to continue writing Angel's character with Ats S4 as a major event in Angel's life? Ats S4 was "extremely" dark. But it seems that nobody in Joss writers' pool want to dwell on it. In fact, with Angel Inc. totally "destroyed", it seems that Angel's adventure is starting from the "scratch". My point is, if Joss could disregard Ats' darkest period as easily as he made of Angel, why can't he do the same to Buffy's character?

Me thinks Joss has been running out of ideas. He needs to "wrap" everything soon or else, he's bound to "recycle" some stories and destroys the "very basic" foundation of his MAIN characters. He has to get one season ONLY to "repair" these damages. As cynical of my view of Joss, I still have this "little" faith that he would have a "decent" soul again for him to make a BETTER story for both Buffy and Angel.

And I'm sorry if I wasn't able to refer to previous posts. I have time constraint. I only stop by to share my point of view in this forum. There are so many things to discuss about Buffy/Angel relationship that doesn't necessarily involve an extra wanna be vampire.

I know this current seasons made me "reacted" in extreme too...but that's because I find this plot "extremely ridiculous and offensive" to me, as a B/A and Angel fan.

P.S.

I find an interesting quote from Joss about Xander:

Quote:

MSN: What is your proudest moment of the entire seven-year run?

JW: I think it was the first time I got a letter -- it was actually an e-mail -- from somebody explaining how much Buffy had made her feel stronger. I was ... it had never really hit me. I knew what I wanted to do, I even knew why, but the reality of the thing and how potent it could be had never really emotionally hit me until I got this one letter. It just ... I can't even think about it without starting to cry.

MSN: I've got to tell you: Xander means the same thing to me...

JW: That's cool. You know, Xander is as important a role model as Buffy and people will never really get that, I think, most of 'em. But, the fact of the matter is that I had a two-fold intent, which was to create a role model in the idea of a girl who's a genuine leader and the role model in a man who is not only comfortable, but turned on by that.


hehe..can I just rephrase that?
A role model man getting comfortable and being turned on by a girl who's a genuine leader .

( Could he just said "admire" instead of "turned on by..", so it wouldn't sound with sexual connotation that "rejected" guys like Xander, who likes to be bossed around by domineering girls, can also be a role model ??? )

Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I bet my life, if blondie vamp didn't come along, Xander would be Joss' male "role model".
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Fri Mar 13, 2015 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A couple of days ago the 18th anniversary of BTVS passed by—were you there from the first day?—I was, but it was sheer serendipity when I turned on the TV. I hadn’t heard any promos, etc. And in all my wobbly fangirl, pom pom and glitter ‘tude—HAPPY BUFFY AND ANGEL TO YOU, (even as Netflix warns it is taking both Buffy and Angel off it's "list”—wags “naughty you” finger at Netflix. “You have some serious crap that deserves the axe before cutting work actually studied in literature, psychology and philosophy, Netflix. Shame. Shame. Shame!”

“Life is pain” was Joss’ mantra and yet, once upon a time, he actually had balance that made these characters have much greater emotional resonance with teens and adults, with greater stress on the importance of struggling to be human beings in a world where feelings are readily hurt and young adults are struggling for any kind of equilibrium that could be had—and it was in each other and not “getting more magick” or shipping anyone. It was how to get a job, how to pay rent, how to maintain connections with people who love you, but ALSO find your OWN WAY. THAT was what Buffy was doing with Angel, DESPITE disapproval. And, I vote she and the world are better off for her having met him!

Yes, they had “tantrums;” yes, they placed importance on things that would pass to feel “safe” or “accepted”—but their characters were rooted in all the right stuff and it was a pleasure to cheer them, grieve with them, fear for them and see they would dare give each other that second chance because that is also the right stuff. Not to mention they helped remind each other of that fact—even Amends was such a reminder for a despairing Angel confronting his sense of a meaningless eternity.

And JOSS WHEDON WROTE THAT. REMEMBER?


Blah, blah, blah on all the suck of season sex in Joss Whedon's head. He WASN'T THERE! . He started seven and bailed and stuck on the ending. I also think his confident slayer in that all for one and one for all sharing the power was cool at the hellmouth, but she had REMOVED all humanity to be with only the “in crowd” WAS ALSO tacked on the end.

Marti was the main show runner of season six; and the use of “sex is hell” is lost on me. I understood Angel’s hell in his return and Buffy’s existential isolation in L.A; and I understood Buffy’s heaven in seasons 2 and 8—which GAVE US A WHOLE ISSUE OF BUFFY AND ANGEL and had more “ Joss showing,” even if he was in the background, he isn’t doing more than a vague plot NOW.

I know it’s’ near impossible to “be Joss”—see THE CHAIN to remember “fixing” the Immortal mess of ATS season 5—The Girl in Question; which HE DID NOT WRITE; he wouldn’t do that to Buffy. However, his fascination with Andrew completely escapes me. Can we have a transgender slayer? Seriously?. Everything in order except “appearance” and not taken seriously—I think that deserves a story. It can’t be any more heavy handed than “male slayers” and “Andrew “deciding” he’s gay. Jeeez. Is ANYONE surprised?


When Joss did Buffy, I do remember the girl who was strong because she actually had confidence. IT WAS THE METAPHOR FOR HER SUPER STRENGTH.

I remember she was “in the world” even if she was “outside” the “in crowd.” I remember when the plots weren’t just another demon pulled out of someone’s ass, but care was given in the nature of “world building.” I mean killing the Master, the “betraying father” and then the b*stard comes back AGAIN? THAT “made sense” as it is not a thing to get over easily, but she confronted it and grieved for her own loss of her “real dad.” Even if Giles has been so deeply invested in her life and choices.

even remember Giles being pals with a demon—“I introduced him to his wife”--blew my mind! Ripper isn’t some hormonal tantrum and Giles’ own guilt over his rebellious misuse of magick that caused chaos with Eyghon was deep enough to reappear in the comics. And I am not seeing him struggle with his PRIDE in his connections to magicks and the DANGER of THAT. It’s nothing now but “needing sex” to fix all problems—isn’t that what Liam said and didn’t he end up DEAD?

Whatever happened to Xander’s independence? What is Willow doing with Saga Vasuki and WHY OH WHY was AMY ever made into some psychotic big bad, when she has been nothing but victimized for LAUGHS! Joss likes humor, but it really is based in CRUELTY and that is why I prefer the drama as the chance for a good outcome is not at the cost of someone else. Joss wrote BOTH prophecies re “normal” and “shanshu” so there is that. But in “school bus” metaphors, Tim Minear would have run Angel over with it upon his first breath, just as Joss will kill Buffy or blow up the world.

I just think heaven and hell are here and Joss “gets that” with Buffy and Angel. I haven’t seen Buffy in Spuffy since the very beginning, including her “dream marriage” to “Blue Beard.”

I do agree that Spike being so “worried” makes him seem “smarter” than Buffy to the “new rules.” THAT instinct used to be her secret power when Giles even couldn't help. She "put things together."

WHY oh WHY was IRELAND the vacation spot instead of a source to Angel's deepest FRAUGHT—wouldn’t he want to AVOID the place he turned to blood and corpses, especially with SO MUCH still standing to remind him?

I guess I just miss Buffy and that means I have to miss Joss. Damn….

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 12:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nope..I wasn't there on the 1st day Btvs was originally aired. Thank god for reruns and dvd! Smile

Yes...Joss and his writers pool during the S1-S3 were able to balance "pain" with "comedy"...and I think BALANCE was the main thing lacking during the later seasons. Could be Marti's fault...but, Joss is still the HEAD. It means, he has all the final say. It's no difference in corporate hierarchy. Joss might have not be aware on every detail in S6, but still, he knew the plot. Just like he knows what will happen in this current comic storyline. That's the purpose of writers' meeting with him. And if I remember it correctly, during the airing of both BTVS/Ats, Joss had meeting with his writers every once a week because they brainstormed on the "topics/issues" to be presented in every episode. That's the reason why it's a normal occurrence that Ats scripts were always given to actors only few hours left before they could rehearse for it.

Yes..Joss wrote Amends. Yes, it was one of his fave episode and fave dialogues wrote, for Angel. "It's not the demon in me that needs to be killed, it's the man"...It's a good dialogue...But I wonder, if after all these years, would Joss prefer to write this dialogue for Angel? or to someone else, whom he said "fully developed" character?

I guess...even if it's Marti and Espenson's idea to bring B/S together, Joss still knew "that"...Those two women would not act if they were not given a GO signal from above. So I would disregard Joss as the innocent party for what happened in S6 and what is still happening to Buffy's character.

Joss knows Buffy...that's his dream heroine. He's the one who is "comfortable" with a girl who is a genuine leader. I always believe, he is "Xander" and he is "Buffy" at the same time. I am just going back on my point before....but Joss prefers Buffy to be with the likes of "Xander"....which unfortunately, had a transformation, and his story and his characteristics were given to the blondie vamp.

Joss doesn't FULLY know Angel. What he knows to write about Angel was the "pain" and "angsty" part....But the romantic side, was Greenwalt. Greenwalt was the "other half" of Angel's character.

If we want Joss to write a better story for Buffy/Angel as a couple, then he must have Greenwalt by his side. Because I don't trust Joss handling Angel's character, all by himself....I mean, look at Ats Season 5....or look at Season 8.

I don't miss Joss...I miss Greenwalt and Minear.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jr24tw
Warrior


Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

elle2 wrote:
Joss doesn't FULLY know Angel. What he knows to write about Angel was the "pain" and "angsty" part....But the romantic side, was Greenwalt. Greenwalt was the "other half" of Angel's character.

If we want Joss to write a better story for Buffy/Angel as a couple, then he must have Greenwalt by his side. Because I don't trust Joss handling Angel's character, all by himself....I mean, look at Ats Season 5....or look at Season 8.

I don't miss Joss...I miss Greenwalt and Minear.

Well Joss only had 3 uses for Angel really. Here's Angel, souled vampire. Here's Angelus, soulles vampire. And here's Buffy's boyfriend. That's all the depth he gave Angel's character on BtVS which really isn't much.

And Joss has admitted he doesn't understand Angel. And he can't write Angel. To me a clear signal that he should stay far, far away from anything to do with Angel.

The Angel that I have come to love is purely Greenwalt. He gave Angel such depth that he eventually became one of the most complex characters in this verse. Also one of the hardest to figure out. So many people still only see the surface of his character without looking deeper (hello complexity) and totally misunderstand him. It's a true testiment to Greenwalt.

As far as Minear goes...I have some issues with him and how he sees Angel. For me it comes mainly from the fact that he had wanted Angel to rape Darla. You know when Angel went all beige and him and Darla went at it pretty hardcore that one night. He wanted it to be flat out rape. There is going dark & depserate. And then there is taking things way to far. This was the latter. WTF Minear?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 10:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The moment I read Joss' interviews about Angel and the big difference on how he "praises" the blondie vamp...I have confirmed my doubts that Joss SHOULD NOT be trusted to write Angel's story. I have forgiven him on how he ran the Ats Season 5...but I won't forgive him on how he "prefers" to develop blondie vamp's story compared to the MAIN and LEAD VAMPIRE!

Actually, I have observed the same on how he "prefers" to develop Faith over Buffy. Even if I have a soft spot for Faith, it doesn't mean that I approve Joss' preference to develop Faith as the "grown-up" slayer over the MAIN SLAYER, Buffy.

Joss is a talented storyteller.But I'm not a blind fan who gives utmost trust for this man. If he could take credit on the success of BTVS and Ats, he should also take the criticisms against him. It's a command responsibility. The criticisms against him is about "character development" of his LEAD characters. There's nothing to criticize about the uniqueness of his storytelling and directing style...It's about how he develops the character.

With Joss' quote:

Quote:
the problem was season six took us to a dark place, and that dark place we lost BuffyPeople didn't want that. That upset them. It was like they didn't have their anchor. So it didn't matter if you have something tight or interesting or thematic or funny – they wanted that anchor back. I get that.


The fact that he recognized as early as Season 7 that "WE LOST BUFFY" on Season 6 and people didn't want that, then the MAIN QUESTION we could ask Joss now is..."DID WE GET BUFFY BACK????"

---what kind of "Buffy" do we have now in comics??? The only thing I could confirm the "RETURN OF BUFFY" was the special episode on issue#20 of Season 8.

So, as for the rest of us here...how do you answer this simple question: Did we get "Buffy" back?

Quote:

As far as Minear goes...I have some issues with him and how he sees Angel. For me it comes mainly from the fact that he had wanted Angel to rape Darla. You know when Angel went all beige and him and Darla went at it pretty hardcore that one night. He wanted it to be flat out rape. There is going dark & depserate. And then there is taking things way to far. This was the latter. WTF Minear?


I give Minear some slack here...Darla and Angelus relationship is by nature, is twisted and complex. Now combined soulless Darla with soulful Angel...what do we expect?

In fact, I have a very strong feeling that Darla/Angel circa Ats Season 2, was Marti/Espenson's inspiration for B/S circa Season 6. I only think that Joss intervenes on Minear's plan to stake Darla during "Reprise" was MAINLY for twist and shocking value. Aside from that, I think Minear's intention to stake Darla was to "halt" any "developments" of this relationship. As a matter of fact, the idea of Minear of "rape" then "enlightment" was clearly applied in the rape scene of Buffy by blondie vamp...Only this time, it was the blondie vamp who had the so-called "epiphany" instead of Buffy.

BS is the REAL WTF moment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Easier to destroy than create. Just sayin'

Agree with what you are saying; I have said these things near verbatim until I am sure I have hurt Cheryl, who I adore for a kind of positive seeing that I often wish I could embrace, DESPITE THE FACTS as you have also described them. "The vision" is not the execution, but BTVS survives as more than a "ship."

“Losing Buffy” in season 6 was the most bungled metaphoric presentation I have ever seen, bar none. Buffy is seated on top of Spike and beats up Spike. HE is the “female” principle in this; she is in a position of (sexual) dominance as the “male principle”—a man beating up a woman with all the justification SHE/Spike deserves to be beaten up because Buffy/HE hates herself for the entire NEED to bury her loathsome self in her/Spike. Then they next show a MALE knocking a woman down in the bathroom, a room of expected privacy.

I knew what was coming because of the presence of water and a “chalice/womb” to contain it as the “great wash” to come in the deepest shock that turns a person from their previous life forever. However, because we have had sex as an expression of hate, the rape of Buffy, suddenly is not an injustice to her, but the SHOCK is given to Spike.

AND to increase the problem, we are watching a MALE body OVERPOWER a woman who is saying “no” ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY COLLAPSE IN HER PAIN. The fact she can “throw him off”—WHICH does NOT happen for most women—does not change the fact SHE/Buffy had already experienced the full violence and violation of her body AND herself, and then she repeats “Ask me why I could never love you.” (AND SHE DOES NOT STAKE THIS GUY AT THIS TIME, actually caught in the act of evil upon her person. WHY? Suddenly Spike’s “miracle” soul-consciousness THAT WASN’T THERE cares about HER pain? When all he has EVER shown is what HE wants FROM her? Furthermore, the chip didn’t work on her, (another amazing miracle, COMPLETELY pulled out of Marti’s ass all season long, suggesting BUFFY WANTS TO BE BEAT UP, DOMINATED, AND NOW VIOLATED and therefore this whole “what she wants” turns into the idea she “NEEDED” to be raped so SPIKE COULD CHANGE.

Steven De Knight always shows the blood and gore—the reality—of a body fighting or being turned into “meat.” I admit I find a lot of fight scenes objectionable, seeing a body so impacted it is flying through the air, but I do know the sheer adrenalin is protective against the shock of every pain to fight for one’s life—until later when every bruise is crippling—and Buffy “blows it all off” in her “instant healing” of “living in the now,” which is supposed to be the “enlightened” place to live.

Tim Minear appeals to those who like slasher movies that the body IS meat and therefore the emotional landscape is completely wild or completely dull/dim.

That is why “completely not caring and therefore evil” in Tim’s mind included rape. It was supposed to be the “great shock” for Angel, and it most certainly was. (Every oother Greek/Roman myth includes the rape of women—as women actually held “sexual and transformative powers to the male, which also may be seen with men being turned into animals).

However! Angel had a soul and even hitting Darla to make her “afraid,” was also for her to realize this version of “sex games” was actually something nihilistic—he needed something FROM Darla and THAT gave HER the POWER. Darla could grasp the depth of Angel’s pain, which she most certainly enjoys—which is the canon of what vampires are really after in people: their “life blood” as once believed, but what was IN IT, their fear, their passions, their pain as top of the heap--sensually in smell and carried in blood.

Joss’s YES/NO switch with Angel is very divided and very clear; and the reality of two completely different people is ALWAYS couched in JOSS’S belief. He is NOT allowing the idea of “suppressing” Angelus for Angel to appear. Angel, therefore, is an amalgam of memories that makes his “inner landscape” completely GRAY.

Joss believes I. Angel is the perfect representation of the existential condition: confrontation of an eternity of meaningless and II his journey of “nothing else” is “true.” Joss believes a person can’t “just live with that absolute truth.” That a person “needs” to struggle until he finds a set of (illusions) that shape his life in a purpose he can describe as having meaning—and IT IS TRUE: t is “meaningful” to those he saved, as they have lives to live. That means valuing “life” for itself is the foundation for “caring” in an uncaring universe. Therefore, love is the transcendent notion of the human species. I see the universe itself as love, chaotic process in its own creative/destruction, the interlocking triumverate of love/death/life. So we all have our notions explored.

Joss’s Angel very simply believed God would damn him to hell for all the acts of both Liam and Angelus, which Angel can see and experience his own body doing. With Buffy, he slowly learns he has the ability TO CHOOSE his path of action, whatever “someone else” will choose to do “later.”

The problem with ANGEL'S journey is that he NEVER SEES himself in "the world" actually seeing a reality he is indeed part of--even if he doesn't participate much in "normal"--he hasn't figured out HIS place IN the world; (which was given us with Faith's story, not to mention his deep admiration for Buffy's surprising approaches to "the world."

The plots around Angel seem to be a choice between two terribles, with two”terrible outcomes” * eventually*. However, Angel also fails to see his own choices set up the very path to PERCEIVING ” the terribles” he has indeed participated in “all along.” Saving a person who crosses his path for “sanctuary” or “rest” gives that person the power to exercise their OWN free will. All this Beau Geste stuff is an exercise of HIS free will.

Anywho-o MY complaint is that if “all about Buffy” and “losing the anchor of Buffy” in the sixth season was “fine” as a “plot arc IDEA” –BUT it was supposed to have Buffy finding HER OWN renewal and “awaken” to the idea SHE HAS THIS POWER to HELP HERSELF, NOT having to salvage Spike as a soul having, worthy hero figure. His “shock” was simple enough in that “chip” removal, as having a choice to REVERT or recognize he really was “MISSING SOMETHING” William had. It wasn’t just “TOO LONG” and it most certainly doesn’t begin to cover the FACT that season seven DID NOT return Buffy’s OWN POWER TO HER.

And the few moments of “healing” with Angel are as easily erased as four years of season 8 in the consequence of it all coming down to “destroying magic.” Jaysus. Just—I have no words. (so here come some more—tee hee).

Never mind Buffy DESTROYED ALL POTENTIAL for “female empowered slayers” in season 7. Should we be surprised that Buffy’s ideal in love and sex is the “unattainable”…except for the part she manages to attain it rather regularly with Angel.

I actually DO NOT LIKE Buffy’s SEXUAL POWER to be something occurring DURING ACTUAL SEX, even WITH Angel. THAT is something SHE has or she does not. The writers keep saying “it comes and goes” depending on how she sees herself, which ALWAYS NOW is lonely, insecure, horndog, frustrated, jealous, needy, pathetic, clueless to her own instincts, misused and abused, over and over, not realizing that forgiveness is for HER. The “rest” is up to the other person to “change.” AND THEREFORE, she does not HAVE TO KEEP LIVING WITH THE CREEPS DOING THESE THINGS TO HER. She is simply horrid.

If this is Joss’s Buffy, his AVATAR, I’ll take the most timid child who actually dares to move at all, and keeps putting one foot in front of the other to confront the unknown to save his life, to live his life, but to ALSO LEARN that he/she can CHOOSE how he/feels about all the crap that should scar and close off a very beautiful world, if he/she LETS IT.

Buffy is shown “mercy” is her power, but she is not allowed to learn she doesn’t have to APPROVE of scars she collects without “doing the work” to face what is REALLY in the darkness:

AND THAT THEY ARE GIVING TO SPIKE AGAIN! His “shadow” self is fighting himself! Which we saw with Angel and Faith in Orpheus. A. It was Faith’s POV, BTW, * not Angel’s,* even though Angel absolutely recognizes the “need” for “female principle” within himself to function properly—his own “inner slayer” that he calls his stubbornness. B. IS THIS BUFFY’S POV to justify her LOVE feelings for this guy? And “the awkward” promised in the crossover. OH, just don’t. I’m tired of “wringing out” soiled panties for more of the never dealing with anything in order to preserve what Spuffy accused B/A IS and ALWAYS HAS BEEN:

CHILDISH IDEALISM. Yes, the past is gone, but the hurts steming out of it with “the way it is” re curse, re duty, re efforts to “build that future” ARE NOT and that isn’t just washing dishes together and call it “enough.”

Joss his “real life” needs for great loyalty, great understanding in trusting him, even when he is DEAD WRONG, not to mention all the “perfect happiness” he affords himself with a devoted wife and TWO children and yet, his AVATAR is too stupid to have any idea who she is or even simply to give herself the first dignity of life, of person, the right to learn.

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

here are other Joss' quotes that I'd like to share a discussion with:

Quote:

IGNFF: Is there any way that you see that you could have possibly enlightened Fran a bit more, as to the tone or style that the script was written in?

WHEDON: No. She had a thing she wanted to do. She was into the comedy of it – she didn't want to make a B horror movie, that's not her style. That's her decision. That's her right. What can you say? The director gets to take over. Now, somebody should protect the script, somebody should be there to do that. Directors have to be storytellers and all that stuff, and some are better than others. I'm talking about movie directors, because a TV director has to do that as much as they can, but ultimately are in service to the executive producer. The producer is the one who has to do that. But, you know, as Jeanine put it once, or probably more than once, "A director doesn't have to create anything, but he is responsible for everything." Same thing goes for an executive producer on TV. I don't have to write a line of the script – although there's not a script for my shows that I don't have a line in, or a scene, or a pitch, or something. I don't sew the damn costumes, I don't say the words – but I'm responsible for everything in every frame of every show. That's my job, whether or not I'm directing the episode. So that's why you have to have that complete faith, that kind of blind faith in a leader who has the ability to lead. I don't know... I just also think leadership is something that is earned. I respected those above me, and demand the same from those below me. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's one thing that helped keep the show together, is I had a clear vision and I was willing to share the credit with my extraordinary staff, crew, and the cast. I mean, obviously, I'm not writing novels – I'm doing collaborative work. But at the same time, I had a couple of people challenge me on my authority, and they found out quickly that they do not brook that.


Joss took responsibility on all his shows. (I give him points for that)...It's noteworthy how he mentioned having a "blind faith to a leader who has the ability to lead"...I roll my eyes to word "blind faith".


Quote:
IGNFF: Where would those challenges originate from? In what aspects?

WHEDON: People becoming unhappy if I changed something or if I was controlling or if I had something ... either pull something out from under me, or complaining about me to staff or something. I'm all for giving people their due and all, but I wouldn't let it lie. You just can't.

IGNFF: How would you deal with those challenges?

WHEDON: I would take them either aside or up to my office and explain why they mustn't do that. It's very simple. I said to one director... he said, "One of these days, I'm going to come down and look over your shoulder while you're shooting." I brought him up to my office the next day and I said, "Let me explain something to you. It is my job to control the way you shoot, not your job to control mine. My name comes at the end of every show. You do very good work and you're going to come back for us, but I am never going to let you do something that I don't approve of."

IGNFF: He understood that?

WHEDON: Yeah. He did, actually.


rephrasing it, Joss said he would NEVER LET SOMETHING BE DONE without his approval...So everything happened in Season 6 onwards were done with his seal of approval!!

Quote:

IGNFF: Do you think occasionally, as part of the position, you do have to lay down that "mission statement" for people?

WHEDON: Yeah, and I think I could have done a better job of doing that with the actors on Buffy. I think we were all so young and so fresh and so crazed when we started, that I let a lot of tension on the set. In trying to be everybody's friend, and so excited to be doing this work, and sort of assuming we'd all get along, I let a lot of non-constructive emotion take open sway on the set, when I should have just put the hammer down and said, "You know what? We're here to do the work. Everybody, just get it done."

IGNFF: Does it make it harder to try and do that later?

WHEDON: Yes. Yes, because you'd set precedent, and that's something you have to learn. I was 31, had never run anything before, and most of my people were pretty new. We all were just sort of, "This is so exciting!" It seemed like we were all going to link arms and march towards the camera singing "La Marseilles." That ain't the case. It can't be.

IGNFF: "Let's make our single season on the air something to remember"...

WHEDON: Exactly. I mean, it felt like that. Come season two, it's like, "Well, you're our buddy! We can just misbehave, because you're our buddy, right? So it doesn't matter, because you're just one of us." I was like, "Whoops. I think I can do that better."

IGNFF: What was the biggest problem with trying to rein it in?

WHEDON: You know, it was just people getting their personal issues or their rivalries or whatever it was, letting them creep into the energy of the set. That was the problem. I should have been more in control, more concerned with the energy of the set as it affected the crew. Because, ultimately, the crew are people you have to protect – more than people I think sometimes realize. It's funny... I said to one reporter one time, and I told my wife this, I said, "You know, the first year, it was like we were all on Ecstasy. Everybody loved each other, everybody hated each other, and nobody wanted to go home." Because I was literally there all night – I'd sleep on the couch. My wife very quietly said, "Not anymore." I was like, "This round to you. The game is far from over!"

IGNFF: "We'll meet again!"


WHEDON:
"We'll meet again! Probably when I come back into the kitchen." It's very true, the energy of a set is a very important thing. My cast... by the way, I'm talking about things that, on a Hollywood scale, are tiny. My cast always came to play, always came knowing their stuff, doing the work, doing the best. Whatever bad energy they had before the cameras rolled, they didn't put it on the screen. But at the same time, there was a lot of tension. Who that bleeds into are the crew, people who come in before – I was the only person coming in before the crew, and staying after the crew, and I get paid better. So I can't complain. They were the people there first and there last, and energy like that flows down a chute, it makes it not as much fun a place. Still, this stuff kind of calmed down, we went seven years, we all kind of grew up. By the end, more professional.


It's personally interesting for me to know that Joss acknowledged the so-called "tensions" brewing inside the Buffy's set. I'm pretty sure what he was referring to was BTVS, not Ats nor Firefly...It's also interesting that he described the big difference of set-environment from Season 1 to the succeeding seasons. And at the end of 7th season, they all "GREW UP" and became "PROFESSIONAL"...I'm pretty sure it resonates on Season 7. Friendship among your OLDER Friends were gone. It was just purely business. Except, Buffy didn't really "grow up" and it's hideously not funny that she found friendship from the maniac creature whom she suffered sexual violence. To think that creature was never really her first "choice", in the first place!!!

Quote:

IGNFF: Were relations frayed in this past season?

WHEDON: Well, you know, there was some things...

IGNFF: There was a recent interview that came out with Freddy Prinze, Jr. ...

WHEDON: The thing about the nonsense? He was quoted as saying, "Sarah had to deal with a lot of nonsense," and I was like, "Okay, Fred. I never saw you on set, so I'm not really sure what you're referring to, but bless ya. Bless ya. By the way, I still know what you did last summer, buddy."

IGNFF: Scooby Dooby Doo.

WHEDON: Oh god. There was tension on set. Not everybody was best of friends, and in fact we did not link arms and sing "La Marseilles." But we made the show as well as we could for seven years, and you know, everybody made it together.

IGNFF: Was there a sense of burnout towards the end, as far as everyone looking on to what the future was going to hold?

WHEDON: Yeah, that started around season three. So it was sort of like, "We're still here, guys. I know you guys are doing movies, it's very exciting ... Oh, so it's Dangerous Liaisons, but with kids – that's going to be fun. We still have to make the show. Is anybody with me?"

IGNFF: "It's a movie about a pie? That's great..."

WHEDON: My one biggest priority of the show is that Aly becomes a sex symbol, and now she has – so I'm very happy about that. But, you know, you have to keep people's head in the game.

IGNFF: There was this perception towards the early years that it was one big happy family, greatest set in Hollywood, and I guess the only time that anything belying that ever came to the forefront was the transition from the WB to UPN.

WHEDON: Yeah. Well, you know, again, the tensions I'm talking about are a small thing – but you asked what lessons I had learned, and one of the most important ones was "When you're a leader, you can't be everybody's buddy." You have to be a leader. That doesn't mean you can't be kind, that doesn't mean you can't be friends, it just means you have to be a leader. You have to know the difference and when to exercise the difference. And the fact of the matter is, in year five, we all planned to come back. The problem was with outsiders. The problem was with the network and the studio – it wasn't with each other. Ultimately, the move to UPN wasn't really a test of anything, because they were still working for me – same crew, same cast, you know? Same 48 audience members.


I don't want to dwell on the personal life of SMG and FPJ's involvement on how the said tension increased. But based on Joss said, the tension started around Season 3 when some of the main casts were doing movie projects...Anyway, for me, I wanted to point how Joss' idea of leadership influenced Buffy's character during the later seasons. He said, When you're a leader, you can't be everybody's buddy. You have to be a leader. That doesn't mean you can't be kind, that doesn't mean you can't be friends, it just means you have to be a leader.

Yes I agree with this, coz that's the way business leaders deal in real life. But Joss probably didn't notice that Buffy is not a "business leader". Business leaders don't trust others and usually secretive because they have "personal interest" to protect...usually in monetary terms; Hence, the proverbial saying that money equals greed. Business leaders would prefer to live in "isolation" and be "greedy" to keep all the money by themselves. There's no need to "isolate" Buffy from her friends, who are also her family whom she devoted her whole being and life. And mostly importantly, there's no need for Buffy to be lost in contact with that special someone whom she felt "pleasantly numb", and be settled with someone whom she despised so much.

If Buffy is still Joss so-called Avatar, then why he didn't proclaim her as the most "fully developed" character of his slayer/vampire verse??? Why did refer to the blondie vamp that recognition?

The main fact that Buffy referred to blondie vamp as her "darkplace", is also a big "vomiting" factor for me. Angelus was Angel's darkside. Darla was Angel's darkplace because she was the one who "damned" him by making him a vampire. I'm just rehashing my previous post but Angel conveyed to human Darla his "inner hate" of being damned, when he told her that she didn't give him the FAVOR..SHE DAMNED HIM. Something that Darla also realized, hence she provoked him to take REVENGE instead of doing her a favor.

Comparing that to "DAMNATION" of Buffy in to that "DARKPLACE"...What do we get??? It lead to way where blondie vamp had the so-called "touching" speech that he has seen her "best & worst", so he had the right to say "she's one hell of a woman". In the end, it was blondie vamp who took the credit of Buffy's damnation. This is what I want to Joss to clarify: Why did he LET that HAPPEN to BUFFY??

I'm sorry..but I don't want to have a blind faith to a storyteller who couldn't clarify why is that so.

Unless, I see a drastic change that would make have a "blind faith" to Joss, there's no need to trust this man as of this moment.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are so many points that I really don’t like that I also feel are very serious mistakes, but no one can be everywhere and humans are not robots. Sometimes they surprise, sometimes they bomb.

Joss has some “formula” to his work: torture the hell out of the protagonist.” Now the work is in “suspended belief,” “world building” and making US care enough to “stick around” to see HOW “our hero” turns out, when actually how WE have changed our views of the hero as we learn, as we fear and cheer them.

The “underlying story” of Buffy and Angel is really Dante and Beatrice— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beatrice_Portinari
The story of B/A/S is actually Nietzsche/Salome/Rilke— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lou_Andreas-Salom%C3%A9

I am aware that Romance Girl sees each “romance” as unique to the people in “relationships,” and each of these is unique to tiny reactions to “context.” Obviously having now seen endless “formulas” of triangles with any and all “justifications” I can’t help see “patterns.” I do consider Joss completely literate—obvious in “flipping over the gender of the “hero’s journey” to Buffy herself; and his use of pop culture is a comment on the needs of the young to find patterns and like persons that huddle and cuddle on the way to adulthood. I think Joss understands the structure of a story, he has a great appreciation for the ironic in language which he uses as comedic:

“I’ve never been intimate with Angel—well, except for that one time.” Now you can consider the great intimacy in the episode of “Damages” between them or turn it into Spangel. (The love-hate relationship that heaves bosoms in pulp fiction).

Or even Buffy’s “mistakes” that puzzle Giles endlessly in efforts to recruit his experience to help a girl whom he discovers has clarified himself to himself: he loves her with all the “complicated” of a father helping her do everything to stand strong until she must leave him. “Becoming friends” with your child in mutual respect is not easy when the point of two lives is to part; and there is always age, experience, protective love that can become barriers—which is what is going on with the comics. Difficulites and problems are the “meat” of drama; we all want that “entertainment” of the twist and we know who we love to hate or hate to love. Joss does, too. He is actually a fan of this stuff or he wouldn’t have been a professional doing it.

I can’t make anyone “trust the tale” especially because the “success” of the tale depends on death. Buffy jumped. Angel was fighting an impossible army. WHAT IS REASONABLE? They died.

WHY is it often called “a cliff hangar” because NO ONE WANTS this kind of ending for people whose STRUGGLES tell us “they deserve” better. Well, since when does “deserve” have anything to do with life? We always die in the middle of something at any age, even our own dying as we live. Joss's "theory" of success or happiness is in "accomplishment." The ability to meet their own understanding of the self with the integrity of honesty, the strength to accept that self exercising their free will in the meaning of a selfless purpose that actually is the only satisfaction any one can have, but never hold: please see the "Romance" of ideals in which self/others are in harmony within the self. That is "the happy ending" Joss offers for his heroes. That will be the only "worthwhile" reward, not some love affair somewhere. Our loves change as our lovers teach. Or something.

"Loyalty and commitment" are the current to getting things done, but it is within JOSS first, for he must submit to whatever is demanded to tell the "story." And anyone who divides anyone from that singular approach, whether in "deserving" better or "personality clash" better keep their mouths shut.

I often have to make sure I am seeing “mistakes” are not just things “I don’t’ like.” And no life follows a script, but in broadest strokes, which is why “everything human” has been reduced to a “trope.”

I happen to think SEEING the shape of Buffy and Angel’s love was jaw dropping and gorgeous and Joss didn’t control the wild scope of season 8, but he sure gave me everything I was waiting for, but he also “flipped it’s meaning” in the fact this “paradise” was indeed supposed to show a HELL DIMENSION. (Why? Because it was “up” ; and “up” is where Angel fell down from to earth. How do you like 3 preopositions in a row? Hee hee) THAT part hurt me as it was again the Spuffy of “childish idealism” rather than the actual use shown of zen, tantra and the character of time as ONE: GOD in enlightenment ANY ONE can do within the self: “To know what to see.”

For Joss, anything that lasts “forever” is “UNCHANGING” and that isn’t “natural,” for that defeats growth, life, and becomes torture. (I am sure most versions of heaven sound like hell to Joss). Recall hell was the “suburbs” where all the people and houses are the same? With ugly secrets “in the basement’—the subconscious where these people actually hate each other, hate their boring lives, don’t have the ability to free themselves from the trap—you have to choose to leave hell in order to leave hell. Seriously. I do appreciate —not to mention, I REALLY appreciate the idea that heaven and hell are right here on earth, which is what Buffy and Angel ORIGINALLY revealed. "high school was hell." Remember? "Instituions" were hell factories, remember? And heaven, the self within the other across the room. A touch, a smile, even the terror to do anything, give anything to save the other.

It sure beats all that chunga chunga dumped on one screen after another these days.

So, I fully love and hate Joss’s decisions and that is also a first for me. I never met Joss so I can’t speak of him but in my intepreations and observations—I also don’t trust “press” always looking for divisive drama for prurient consumption.

I think that is a very interesting take on “greed” of money. You are pointing out the very corruption of the “mercs” Kennedy has chosen. I can’t believe these people can’t be stunt doubles or producers for a job instead of shooting guns for only “special people” when the slayer is called to save the world, GOOD, BAD, INDIFFERENT for that chance at life, that chance for change.

Business has only one purpose: profit. Look it up. THE problem is that all the money all the time for only “me” drives its activity; and worse, in the U.S., “corporations” are not mere abstractions, they are FULL RIGHTS PEOPLE, WITH MONEY AS ‘FREE SPEECH.’ We "vote" with our dollars, you see.

Now you know why corporations bought the government, media, etc. Very few voices are even allowed baccess or breath who remember the people who actually need to access and breathe air.

And that, simply put, is POWER. Which is what Joss’s work has afforded him. His work was good, but now he has the power, too. And WE gave it to him.

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 4:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

interesting points...but I'll deal with other issues later.

Though, this one thing I can't resist to comment:

Quote:
And that, simply put, is POWER. Which is what Joss’s work has afforded him. His work was good, but now he has the power, too. And WE gave it to him.


Yes...and I think we gave LOTS of POWER to Joss, didn't we?

If supernatural power is the equivalent of money for Buffy as compared to Corporate leaders, then, it's safe to conclude whether it's Money or Power, both can be abused. Same thing as such "Power" we gave to Joss Whedon.

Joss' powers over us, fans, is our ability to sympathize or be "emotionally" invested to his stories and the characters involved. I guess, he took advantage of that very well. Whatever formula he used to his storytelling, I'm afraid has the same pattern...which for me, is starting to wear out. The shocking value is still there but I've learned from Buffy/Angel to be cautious not to get "emotionally invested" on any Joss-made stories, ever. That's what happened me to when watching Dollhouse. I love Eliza and I think her character was interesting. But since I knew what to anticipate on Joss' stories, the deceptions and betrayals, surrounding the Dollhouse were already passe for my taste. Not to mention the sex slave/heroine theme of it, reminiscing of other female characters in BTVS/Ats which has suffered abused and demon possessions. Not to mention the theme of "erasing memory" and the underlying concept that if someone's memory loss, would someone's identity be lost too?.

That's the problem of doing the same formula, again and again, but expecting different results. Einstein called it, INSANITY.

Joss' same formula of torturing protagonists because for him "pain" equals "interesting stories", may be applicable to one character, but it doesn't mean it would be applicable to all. Torture is much fitting for Angel's story since he has been struggling to fight his "inner" demons for hundreds of years...and Angel is much more experienced from this "pain/torture" issues more than what Buffy is capable of. Angel knew this fact. That's why he preferred to carry the "burden" of their break-ups and the "missed opportunity" in IWRY, because he knew how to deal with "emotional pain" better than Buffy. It's not to undermine Buffy's emotional strength...It's just when it comes to "darker" theme of life, such as "fighting demons" and "downward depression", Angel is expected to "handle" it better than Buffy. And I'm glad Joss and Greenwalt recognized this basic fact by stating on the beginning of Ats that this spin-off would handle MORE adults stuffs and be of a DARKER tone compared to BTVS.

Then, UPN years came, and Joss confirmed that there was "tonal shift" in BTVS.

I'll say this again....that's I think, when Joss and Mutant Enemy made a mistake!!!

Now going back with Joss' power we gave to him...we could also take away. Joss is the boss of his shows...but without us, he won't be remembered. Maybe he knows this fact, that's why he tends to cater the B/S fans, for a "misguided" belief that such fanbase "dominates" his fandom.

Or he just "prefers" to write stories about B/S since he could create a two-fold intent of a "domineering" girl and a "slave" boy?

Who knows what goes in the mind of a "wiseman"...or a "fool"?

Now, if we accept the notion that we gave Joss his power, then how sure are we that such power would not be abused? How could he demand us such a "blind faith" for him, if what we are not "satisfied" by what he's doing?

Well, I don't know about the rest of us here...I'm the one who is not satisfied, that's why I ask such questions.

If someone agrees on what Joss is doing to his characters that we've loved, then, have a blind faith to this guy.

It's just for me, I don't. Something about "TRUST THE TALE, NOT THE STORYTELLER", always keeps ringing in my mind. Smile
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I’m not sure if you are on a crusade to have people join you in “quitting” participation with the fandom—and to what degree; after all, Joss is not credited for being a “fixer” on many, many projects “out there.”

Second, if the formula is so apparent now to you, I can only assume you believed a very different “outcome” for BTVS and ATS or any and all Joss projects. This does speak to implied promises, of course, but also to the foundation planks that describe the universe in which we are operating, not to mention the actual facts of the “horror genre” or even use of “noir.”

I have been “praying” for the implied promises that “death” are the actualization of Buffy’s adulthood, but I also fully expected what was shown in Chosen—yet “shoulder to shoulder” to be the means to do it, for the end of ATS and that of BTVS. I howl that Angel’s “amends” and “purpose” and “meaning” in life around “if nothing matters, it matters what we do” became some “pulled out of the hind quarters and dung heap” of “free will” existential acceptance of “illusions” when Angel’s struggle has centrally been about the nature of love.

Spike is perceived to grasp a ‘linear’ growth into its understanding. Angel and Buffy ARE love and the backdrop for struggles between life and death itself that are not easily defined as “good and evil.” Buffy herself questioned how being a proficient killer wouldn’t harden her “world view” and separate her even more from her humanity.

I really do see your sense of Spike, but especially of Spike as the important “person” whose story and journey seems to supplant that of Buffy herself. His role of “truth teller” fails because he has a soul. That job was once the uncaring cruelty of evil, but to be wise enough to see past the words and find the agenda. Recall, Buffy and Angel both recognized the bait and the hook, for recognizing the trap, even as Angelus told a truth of sorts that mostly shifted shortcomings onto a person capable of caring; something like reading a horoscope as “true” rather than its use, perhaps, as a tool of meditation, to be mindful of your thoughts, your own choices and actions and interactions, whatever vagaries seem to “fit” or “promise” outcomes.

Spike keeps being posed as if Buffy herself is some trophy to win or lose, without his ability to grasp how to integrate her “inspiration” into his own life to strengthen his own journey’s course. Angel has the capability of standing on his own two feet and there was a show and several titles of books to prove it—and those didn’t include Faith, the character, but are about faith, itself, when so little evidence exists for Angel to have or maintain it, in God or humanity. It is why he is so admirable. He isn’t just stubborn. He is a good man, by nature.

I enjoy very many things in Joss’s work; and I have hated nearly every finale he himself wrote/directed/produced of near every project he has done, simply because “happiness” is not the point and people keep saying he is so brilliant that people create their own accomplishment amidst the wreckage, he keeps doing just that. Further, happiness is the very “football” that destroys drama so he makes sure to kick EVERY SINGLE TIME, just like Lucy holding it for Charlie Brown to INVARIABLY fall on his ass when she pulls it away. THAT is what I mean about “not learning” with the characters confronting the same person, the same football, over and over and insisting on doing the same thing. The fact that you feel this means the fans insist on ceding power to Joss to keep using our hope for relief to eventually happens suggests you have finished all the learning you could possibly “get out” of Joss’ s works. And if it is indeed “happiness” or “relief” that you seek, then you can either a. live in hope b. stop living in hope with anything Joss does. That simple. I do understand your expressions of great pain, but it is very difficult for anyone here to listen to you, to understand you, if we all leave here, in some solidarity you may feel “shows Joss” how much power we have and can take back or away from him. How does that work? To have a fandom, but no one in it?

Whiie you are not alone in feeling betrayed in how these characters have been used or in the “way the story should go” that seemed to be the story Joss was telling and got lost in a thousand ways—many of the originating fans within fandom did leave in disgust and hurt and deep enough to pull their own contributions to fandom, e.g. their fanfic, graphics, videos and other kinds of sharing/posting. All the difficulties of working for network TV gave many some understanding to how things “changed,” but you are right that Joss’s name is on this stuff and the fact remains, his belief he could run three shows at once was pure hubris.

We learned to expect BETTER from this man, even his experiments were “interesting;” and now all we get is “formual” in “expanding the middle”—running in place, wind, rewind—until “the sponsors cancel”—sales collapse; to just tack on some ending that suddenly “says” and really doesn’t “show” these miraculous leaps to an elsewhere land that ignores the premise or implied promise that brought us to the dance in the first place.
I always approve of stories of Buffy and Angel that kill Joss. I find these satisfying and very funny.

While it is true that there is struggle at the bottom of every breath, sometimes we are also breathless with joy, not just pain and “accomplishment” was NOT the implied promise for two people achieving the specific goals of their “happiness” that the specifics of “normal” and “mortal” hold between Buffy and Angel and the “lack of” is the curse of their journey that is promised FAVORABLE COMPLETION: EVERY PROPHECY COMES TRUE.

I ALSO agree Spike took Xander’s role, since Xander actually was growing up, declaring his independence from Buffy’s shadow to make a life of his own, worthy of an adult. Why they choose to unravel this, has to do with Dawn and Connor for they are, in my mind, actually Buffy and Angel themselves, not merely avatars and the psychological interplay within the mind; and that is the “why” and needs reversal. So…I wait.

All this Illlyria/Koh yawn and “what new Fred” is like—also yawn worthy. Didn’t come to BUFFY the vampire slayer or ANGEL the series to study EVERYBODY ELSE as stars of the show. Again,FOR ME, the Buffy and Connor meet up ON SCREEN is of paramount importance and if it is bungled or doesn’t appear to clarify or solidify my understanding ANY OF THIS is going somewhere that the structure of “story” demands, and is used to move the “natural life” of a specific story, thus having to be set within the literary landscape’s “POINT.” I am not there just to be entertained mindlessly with no sense of what it was that I enjoyed. Strange as it may seem I don’t enjoy a lot of Buffy. I don’t enjoy watching people who love each other, smash each other, because it’s a “metaphor.” I don’t enjoy the rotisserie of parings just to have a rotisserie of pairings as impossibly improbable as hairless humans walking among the Jurassic Age dinosaurs—it hurts my “suspension of belief” and it hurts my attention to care for a character who struggles to know what character even is, but primarily to have “more stories” of “helpless lust or love” that no reasonable human being would indulge—going to work just takes up too much of the day for it, let alone taking on the “world.” While a child is a world, the whole world can be described infinitely, so that is just too big for my brain. “Story” doesn’t just wander, even if Shakespeare himself said it all means nothing. That does nothing to fill the day and doesn’t take the intelligence of an amoeba. So what?

As I said, I feel season 11 should be enough to end this series and for Joss to actually convince me of a finale I believed existed from the very moment of “world building” in female empowerment, to the use of “death as change,” that has made the stage upon which his characters walk. I am not interested in the “message” of existential angst that modern literature requires as “truth” in this story because THAT WAS NOT THE POINT EVEN IMPLIED. It was the nature of “becoming,” a journey to make, with specific implied promises for the protagonists we follow to fulfill those promises, even if the journey is difficult, dangerous, painful or even deadly. The promise must be kept or the piece is not only a betrayal and unsatisfying, no matter how entertaining, it is simply structurally bad.

Further, I kinda cared what Buffy and Angel thought about things, NOT some “narrator” forcing his philosophy out of their faces at the last minute because someone else “pulled the plug.”

I would like JOSS to actually write every line of season 11 and control what and why everything on the page means until he controls the end of the entire story of these characters. I am not interested in another “deux ex machina” to resurrect them for “more stories” yet again. I came for the ONE STORY of Buffy Summers, who understands her own need to grow up, yet is wise enough to understand why. Deliver the goods, Joss. “More stories” is really a cheat because they really are “different stories.”

HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

nope..I'm not going for a crusade to "quit" Joss fandom. Instead, I'm asking for B/A community to unite and bring our sentiments to Joss. If you could back to my previous post, (forgive me for all the rants), I was seeking for B/A leaders who could bring our "complaints" to Joss and company. As a fan I have grievances, and by reading others' posts, I have the impression that I'm not alone. If only there's a so-called "leader", who could "summarize" or "edit" all our observations and complaints and deliver to Joss, maybe, he'd consider it.

Do you still believe that Joss' path for B/A was the same one as before? B/A was not intended to be the "main" love team when season 1 started. It only blossomed because the fandom asked for it. Same with B/S...Do you still believe that Joss and the writers are not influenced by the fandom, even for just a bit? With all our theories how "money" operates, how sure are we that Joss still values "creative" process as opposed to having profit?

The formula is apparent to me... Joss is doing the same formula time and again. He could expect the same results or not...who knows?..but the gist is, couldn't he think of other formula?

Not everyone sees things as you...I, for one, get my insights thru personal experience. I might recognize metaphors and symbols which are only familiar to me. My sentiments and grievances come out from this very basic fact that I'm emotionally invested to Angel, Ats and BTVS S1-S3. And I already posted before how Ats and the characters created impact in my life. It's the TV shows I allowed myself to be "influenced" heavily. It's disheartening to realize that the TV shows I was so proud of being a fan with would have a "negative" message during later seasons. I've experienced, on hand, how to be assaulted and felt powerless. Trauma is not the easiest thing to get rid off. We may forgive those persons who done it to us, but to "romanticize" it without a foundation of love, is a perversion.

Yes, my B/A heart is affected with all this B/S brouhaha, but I'm most affected on what's happening about Angel. Angel's friends were all gone. Fred may come back in comics, but it's yet to see if she would the turn out as the "same" Fred. Gunn, well, I don't know. He was a vampire in comics then human again...I don't know what's the point of being a vampire in Joss verse anymore?

If you believe that Joss could fixed all these, by himself alone...well, that's my point from very beginning, I don't think he'd fix this the way we "wished" he'd do it. That's where I reiterated of me not having a blind faith for him. But, if he'd bring into the table Greenwalt and Minear, maybe, there'd be a "tonal" shift on my part.

That's all I have to say.
Smile

P.S.

though I admit I have this "negative" feelings against Joss, I think, just like Angel is, he might have lost his soul somewhere out of sheer happiness ...But I do hope, he'd get his soul back to "straighten" his thoughts and do what is right...even if, technically, he's got a different view of "right things". But hey, even as an atheist such as Dostoevsky who recognized an existence of "superego" in the form of Alyosha in Brothers Karamazov, I wish the same for Whedon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 2:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed in the notion Angel/Buffy were not the "it couple" or the "means" to the "point." Angel was a herald ONLY.

I do recognize that Joss was confronted with cancellation EVERY season and had to be ready to "wrap it up" quickly. With renewal, he had to "kill" something dear (her old world of childhood) also imposed on "ideal Angel" until we are told of his "curse" ALONG WITH BUFFY'S CURSE, her calling--they were then HERALDS TO EACH OTHER. (Classic "hero's journey" : see Odyssey by Homer.

Well, EXCEPT ATS season 5, hundreth episode Joss was THEN told his "renewal for season 6" WAS CANCELLED! THE HECK?

So...I am not asking for Joss or his assigns to do ANYTHING I WISH, but KEEP THE PROMISES MADE in the actual piece presented.

All of these characters are supposed to be about "Buffy" or "Angel"--the means to see and understand or reflect them. It doesn't matter what happends to them, but for the SHOW in their MEANING upon the protagonist. They feel loss, they feel grief, they learn they can't stop breathing, even if they hate the pain of it, they go on and they learn to dare again--that's the stuff of heroes. But that is the obvious story. And they fulfill those promises as "accomplishments" of "becoming" with the "fact" of some death to LEARN WHAT TO SEE between then and now. THE IMPLIED PROMISES are SHOWN in "prophecy" and that means "future."

THAT was clearly "normal" for Buffy--the "cure" for her curse of her lonely calling as slayer and fear of the loss of herself as human in what it measn to be both empowered and female; while Angel's "cure" for his immortality is to be MORTAL, which means he feels perfect peace BECAUSE he can die, his soul his own, returned to God, the gift he gave humans upon the breath of life. NEITHER is "fulfilled" unless YOU accept Dawn is 'Buffy's normal" and Connor is Angel's "human who will die; OR YOU believe Buffy is Dawn's Avatar and Angel is Connor's Avatar--WHICH I THINK REQUIRES REVERSAL for the MAIN PROTAGONISTS TO ACCOMPLISH THE IMPLIED PROMISES THAT WOULD FOLLOW THE FULFILLMENT OF THOSE PROPHECIES. Dawn and Connor can't be "together." Why? Well, "the key" relates to BUFFY, not to Dawn being a key to herself. And Connor as the Destroyer? I suggest the entire premise of Angel "working dark with a soul" for the Senior Partners brought about the entire POINT of the finale and leaving W&H, PLUS, After the Fall, Plus the specific driving force in "going with Twilight's plan" TO AVOID being the guy who is "the destroyer" of the world. (And I say he must fulfill that prophecy--death of the "old" self or the "old world" to BECOME AN ADULT is "the point" of becoming. THe POINT of the "implied promise" in "normal" and "mortal"-the REASON for those SPECIFIC prophecies for Angel and Buffy was that they would have the IMPEDIMENTS TO each other REMOVED. That means they would HAVE EACH OTHER. THAT is the accomplishment AND the beginning. A life forged by love.

I have no other way in interpreting the story offered, no matter how "we get there." Not after 18 years--I am Buffy's age and "enough is enough" to GET TO IT.


THEN anyone can do anything they damn well feel like. I don't care. I want the story that was told, promised and, to me, must be fulfilled or it's NOT the story OFFERED--whether I like "that story" or not. And in IMO, Spuffy, Bander, Spangel, ringa ling and ding dong ARE.NOT.IT.
Hugs!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 4:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

wishes...promised tale...whatever word we used and how we interpret words, I believe we have ONE common thing from Joss... a tale for B/A.

Quote:
Well, EXCEPT ATS season 5, hundreth episode Joss was THEN told his "renewal for season 6" WAS CANCELLED! THE HECK?


As far as I read some news before, it was Joss who "annoyed" the executives of WB by "demanding" for early renewal. Anyway, this is trivial. Perhaps I just mentioned it to point out that Ats' cancellation could be Joss fault Smile


Quote:
THEN anyone can do anything they damn well feel like. I don't care. I want the story that was told, promised and, to me, must be fulfilled or it's NOT the story OFFERED--whether I like "that story" or not. And in IMO, Spuffy, Bander, Spangel, ringa ling and ding dong ARE.NOT.IT.


If I think the same thing as I think you mean, then I say YES TO THIS! ...That's why I said before that I don't care how B/A ends. What I CARE for is "journey" about B/A. I'm more interested on the things they do "together" before Joss "wraps" this series.

If you want to see from B/A things that you could interpret with symbols of myths, I'm not in the authority to disagree with this. That's your expertise. Smile

But what are "symbol of myths" for you, are "lessons" for me. I want to "interpret" lessons that I could easily share with my friends and family about this shows and its MAIN/LEAD Characters, so they would have any idea why I invest time to spend in online forums discussing things that for them are "irrelevant".

We have different minds. We see different things. And yet there's something about B/A that brings ALL of us here. And IMO that's ONE BIG proof, that B/A has an underlying beauty that can bring different minds together.

That means B/A is the CENTER that "holds" everything in Joss vampire/slayer verse together.

(The center is NOT B/A/S...even if you pointed it out the "irony" of that triangle bearing the same initials of Buffy Anne Summers. The same irony that B/S also stands for Buffy Summers from which she "preferred" to be called. The same irony, too, that "S"..as Summers was her father's name, whom she secretly despised, and also "S" for blondie vamp's name whom she also despised.... While "A" stands for "Anne", which is the "adjacent" part of her "given name" but decided to "leave behind" in Los Angeles...as also "A" stands for "Angel" whom she "loves" but left her to live in Los Angeles.)

Again...

I just like to convey my "wish" (sorry my english vocabulary is limited Smile ) for Joss to "handle" the story of B/A the way it was supposed to be handled. And that means giving us "THE TALE" he wanted us to TRUST MORE THAN TRUSTING THE STORYTELLER, such as himself.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jr24tw
Warrior


Joined: 29 May 2013
Posts: 56

PostPosted: Tue Mar 17, 2015 6:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:
Well, EXCEPT ATS season 5, hundreth episode Joss was THEN told his "renewal for season 6" WAS CANCELLED! THE HECK?

Hold on there. It's as much Joss's fault as it is the WB's. The WB only agreed on S5 after ME made certain changes to the show (fewer or no arcs, lighter sets and of course blondie bear).

Angel was always renewed very late so Joss basically went to them and said: Ok we've made all the changes for S5 that you asked of us. All I ask for is that you don't leave us hanging so long like you usually do.

The result was that the then head of the WB cancelled Angel months before these announcements usually come (late January- early February or something). He was replaced/fired towards the end of the TV Season and the new head tried for damage control. Of course by then it was too late. Everybody had grown tired of being jerked around every year and by then had already landed new jobs. I think he even said if they can't do a show they would agree to do TV movies. But the producers/crew/actors were just tired of the WB at that point.

I wonder if I can find that David Fury quote somewhere. He basically said it was bad moves on both sides...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> B/A Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 8, 9, 10, 11  Next
Page 9 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group