Blood Roses Community Forum Index

"It started with a girl..."


 FAQFAQ   SearchSearch   MemberlistMemberlist   UsergroupsUsergroups   RegisterRegister 
 ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

David at Wizard Con on eternal B/A love!
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> B/A Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 8:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

oh...i forgot to post something.

I found some quotes that I might show to Buffy, if ever she's a REAL PERSON who needs help on her "confusions" about her love life.

A. If it's her heart that is confused:



B.if her mind is not in unison with her heart:





C. If she is confused on whom to be in-love with



And this one screams B/A, IMO:



ROMANCE is...

"..when someone you like walks into a room and they take your breath away.."


"..when two people are dancing and they fit together perfectly.."


"..when two people are walking next to each other all of a sudden they find themselves holding hands.."


If only Buffy were REAL PERSON and not a fictional character turned into a "zombie" and "robot" being told to do things that are "degrading", I would present this to Buffy and let her think and reminisce about her past. Then let her decide on her own.

If only...
Mr. Green

edit:

hey, jr24tw, we happened to post at almost the same time!

As before, I agree with your posts. Though it seems that we are just reiterating the same thoughts as before. That's why I decided to post a "new" way to express my love for B/A.

I don't want to pretend I grasp the POV of the comic writers neither of Joss', because obviously I don't agree with them. Neither I pretend I know how to interpret Buffy's actions in this current B/S storyline, because I also don't agree with it.

Quote:
With Angel it's a bit harder since it depends largely on who writes him. Now Joss should always stay far away from him (good thing Greenwalt was there in S1-3 BtVs). Now Greenwalt and Minear were good with that.


Yes...But as you said before, Joss' views Angel as either Angel/Angelus and Buffy's Boyfriend. He didn't give much further depth on his character post-Season 3. It was Greenwalt and Minear who did it. Nonetheless, no matter who writes Angel, I guess, when it comes to his "love" life, it only means ONE thing = Buffy! That's what I thought, even if Greenwalt pushed C/A on Ats Season 3. As Minear pointed it out, Buffy is the ONE TRUE ONE for Angel. A fact that I wish would change if ever Joss and the present BTVS comic writers would push down into our throats this B/S storyline at expense of Angel's story!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 871

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 1:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey...I'd take BUFFY's Story.. You know..Buffy the Vampire Slayer? If this girl hasn't the sense of a rock, has so little sense of herself--how the heck am I supposed to know who she is. All I got left is who she IS NOT.

BTW, I am going to comics thread and get out of this one on DAVID's appearance, even if I rely on "the show" and B/A thread kinds of comments in my posts.

I understand that ever trying to tie together the tv and comiic worlds will fill our posts and it's hard to segregate them 'appropriately" to a thread. Clear and separate discussion of the comics is pretty much a discussion of plot and since I can't stomach buying all of these anymore, I do ask help on that when I miss out on my understanding of those issues I skip--even iwth comic's help with reviews that are more "plotty."

I can't decide whether to buy the crossover or just the end when Rebecca Isaacs returns in illustration. The pretty is pretty, but doesn't it make Buffy look 7, like anime, or something? Answer in comic book thread--that comic mostly endures our negative on just "everything."

Umkay?
HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Wed Mar 25, 2015 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But to say it's all a product of writing in the book? I can't believe that. Joss gives and takes, but that certain plot device is too much "take". It's too cruel, even for Whedonverse standards. I'm not saying it's not possible---I mean, anything is with Joss---but I wouldn't get my hopes too high.


See I think it's exactly the kind of thing Joss would do. Look up "dishing out cruelty" in the dictionary and there's a picture of Joss Whedon. While I don't agree, a lot of fans think the S8 storyline was cruel to B/A fans. Back in the day Cordy/Angel fans wanted Cangle about as much as Spike fans want Spuffy....The WB even had a big poll up on their site asking "Should Angel and Cordy take the plunge", and the comments were as heated as anything you'd see on a Spuffy vs Bangle poll. Imo "Waiting in the Wings" and the Cordy/Angel sex was a way to satisfy that part of fandom without really giving them anything. The make-out session during the ballet only happened because they were under a spell and of course the sex in "Awakening" never happened at all.

To a smaller degree fans hoping for a Buffy/ Xander hookup were treated to "Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered"...and as jr24tw has already mentioned, Spuffy was teased with "Something Blue". If fans want something badly enough they usually get it....only not really. Heck the Spuffy of S6 carried the warning "this isn't real but I just want to feel". So while I'm not pinning my hopes on it, when I looked at the season as a whole instead of just focusing all my attention on the Spuffy of it, I came to the conclusion that there's way more going on here than Buffy's love life, or if she's unattainable or not. Someone writing in the book would make sense of the nonsensical...and just out of practicality would answer the question of why writing new rules in the book has been highlighted so heavily this season if no one is ever going to write in the book. Why for instance is it a plot point? Why all the reminders about forced love not being real? Why waste limited page comic book dialouge on something of no importance? These are questions I have.



Quote:
Xander would never do that to Buffy. He respects her enough to let her make her own love life choices and he said himself forcing a relationship or love doesn't make it genuine. If you want someone to blame for this "writing in the book" theory of yours, then Andrew would be a better fit. He makes idiotic choices, hopelessly idolizes Spike, and is planted firmly on Team Spuffy. Now I wouldn't be surprised if he wrote in the book ... but that still doesn't mean I expect the writers to go down that road.


Yes you're right, it is only a theory but imo there are more reasons to entertain the "book writing theory" than to entertain the Buffy is "unattainable girl" who always chases what she can't have, and will now fall madly in love with Spike theory".

There's no question that Andrew is the kind of witt-less character that wouldn't think twice about writing in the book but like Sybil I don't think the person writing in the book is aware of what they are doing or have done.....so I don't believe Xander is knowingly writing in the book.....I'm speculating that he is being manipulated, or is perhaps under thrall or something. I also don't believe the intended purpose was to hook up Buffy and Spike.....but rather that Spuffy is a side effect of what has been written. I suspect Xander only because the book itself has focused on his character so much. So some things I question and wonder about..........

Xander has already successfully written in the book.....and in the same arc has demonstrated that he is suseptible to being enthralled. The new daywalking vampires have the ability to change shape the same way Dracula does, so can they entrall people too? What about Drusilla? Angel and Spike have Drusilla in common. Do they consider her an old foe now?

Xander is being haunted by Anya....Anya has no idea why it is happening and wishes it would stop so she is clearly in some way being compelled to haunt Xander. My question is by whom and why.

Xander has undergone some radical personality changes since being in therapy with Dr. Mike.
Who is Dr.Mike? Why have we never seen him? Why is Xander so taken with him? Could Dr. Mike be a daywalking vampire? Could he be Dru?

Why were daywalking vampires really allowed to continue daywalking? Won't this pay off somewhere down the line or was it just thrown in for the heck of it?

Those flying creatures on the Buffy/Angel/Spike cover resemble the daywalking, shapeshifting vampires from the first arc. Vickie's group. Vickie who told Buffy she was the past and her and her vamp buddies were the future.

All this stuff has to tie in together or why include it in the book. My speculation is that it all leads back to Xander and the mysterious Dr Mike.....which in turn affects Spike since he rooms with Xander and they are now suddenly best buds....and then Buffy because of her new relationship with Spike.

Giles is the only person not cheerleading for Buffy/Spike. Why is that? Could it be that at least one person is needed to figure things out and try to fix them?

Quote:
Well for me the big question is why is everyone behaving so weirdly? And it's not just Buffy and Spike. Why is Xander talking about Buffy's romantic life with his shrink? Why are Willow and Dawn pushing Buffy onto Spike? Why is Buffy's past love life rewritten into 'unattainable'? We all know she had only 2 relationships, Angel and Riley. Neither of them were unattainable because otherwise she wouldn't have been with them.

It's literally like someone is rewriting history and in the process rewriting characters. I'm not reading S10 but is the Vampyre book now not just able to change the vampire rules but the universe/world and the people in it itself? Because that doesn't even make sense.


I so totally agree. Way too many bizzare happenings going on to just blindly accept as truth....especially when we know and have seen differently. Things written in the book have to be worded perfectly in order to escape the Monkey Paw effect. Spike became enamoured with Dracula, as did all vampires after it was written that Dracula was the lord of all vampires, so I guess something could also effect all humans and their behaviour if it was written properly.

elle2, I love your post.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
janas
Dark Avenger


Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 5:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elle2 wrote:
ROMANCE is...

"..when someone you like walks into a room and they take your breath away.."


"..when two people are dancing and they fit together perfectly.."


"..when two people are walking next to each other all of a sudden they find themselves holding hands.."


If only Buffy were REAL PERSON and not a fictional character turned into a "zombie" and "robot" being told to do things that are "degrading", I would present this to Buffy and let her think and reminisce about her past. Then let her decide on her own.

If only...
Mr. Green


I love it Heart
_________________

"I just know that when you're around, whether I see you or not, I feel you. Inside."
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^thanks. I'm hoping those gifs would make you feel better my friend. Buffy and Angel are both beautiful to look at in moving pictures. Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
babytess6693
Warrior


Joined: 01 Jun 2011
Posts: 102
Location: Lurking in port charles

PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2015 9:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is actually in response to Sybil's post. I am so sorry it took me this long to respond.


Honestly, I have only ever seen the entire 4th season of Dallas. Everything else I know about that show is courtesy of Wikipedia and Youtube.

You say that every couple I have written is a mystery, here is a brief synapsis of some of them and all of them have characteristics just like bangel:


Bope - (Bo Brady is apart of a working class family whereas Hope Williams is pretty much a heiress because her father is kind of a millionaire. Bo and Hope hated each other when they first met. Bo was in the merchant marines and Hope was 17 going on 30. Bo thought Hope was trying to act way too adult and was not afraid to call her out on it. As a result of her behaviour, Hope would get into these really horrible situations and bo would have to save her. Eventually Bo and Hope did marry after going through blackmail attempts, false pregnancies, and a scandalous chick named Megan who could not take no for an answer. Bo and Hope left Salem for a little bit and when they came back, things were a mess. Bo had a daughter with Billie Reed who turned out to be a bitch that killed his son with Hope and nearly wrecked his marriage with her lies(Thankfully Chelsea has pretty much been retconned from Days of our lives). Bo and Hope really are the essential supercouple and they were on and off for about 30 y

years until Peter Reckell left days of our lives. Peter Reckell is supposed to be coming back for the 50th anniversary and I really wish that Bo comes back and gets in the middle of Hope and Aiden cause that is not

cool.



S&B - (Sonny is a mobster who had extremely terrible childhood and lived in Bensonhurst. Brenda was a spoiled brat who had everything handed to her because Papa barrett owned a super corporation. Brenda originally started dating Sonny

because her sister screwed with her money and cut her off and well Sonny is super rich. Eventually Brenda did fall in love with Sonny and they had a lot of good years even though he nearly got her shot a few times and he got Lily Pregnant. Brenda was believed to be dead

for a while and when she did come back, Sonny was with Carly and that whole thing. Brenda did eventually marry Sonny although right after the wedding, she nearly blown up by the balkan. Thankfully Sam had taken Brenda's place in the car and only ended up losing her hearing for a month. Brenda left Sonny about 5 months afterwards because he refused to leave the mafia for a normal life with her and Lucian in Rome. Plus Sonny could not really accept Lucian because he was someone else's. Plus Brenda left

Sonny because he got nearly got jax killed by messing with his plane and because Sonny is the reason why Carly has custody of Jossaleyn. Carly is actually a dumbass. Brenda and Sonny have chased each other around for over 20 years but they are still each other's soulmates and always come to each other.)



Ejole - (Ej is the extremely SORASED son of Stefano Dimera and Susan Banks and basically was born into money and has a law degree that nobody has mentioned in years and was also a racecar driver. Nicole Walker was a teenage porn star who was repeatedly raped by her own father on film. Nicole is a schemer with a heart of gold while EJ has a wandering penis. Basically Nicole and EJ got together when he was in the midst of a fake marriage with Sami. So Nicole and EJ would sneak around and have sex and their baby girl was conceived in an elevator. When Nicole found out that she was pregnant, it was a surprise but EJ rose to the occasion and finally left Sami. Because of Nicole's background, she can carry a baby to term but it will not survive so that little girl died around thanksgiving and Nicole kept the truth from EJ. Sami just so happened to be pregnant with EJ's baby at the time too and Sami didn't want really anymore kids because the twins were not even a year old when she got pregnant again
.... so Nicole stole her baby and passed it off as her own. There was a girl named Mia who was pregnant at the same time too but with Chad's baby and so Nicole switched Mia's baby with Sami's because Nicole wanted EJ to have a child of his own. That whole mess blew up in Nicole's face when one of the babies(Grace - Sami's kinda baby) died and then the truth had to be revealed. EJ could not stomach Nicole for a very long time and Nicole did go to prison for like literally 2 minutes. After some time had passed, Nicole got out of Jail and EJ forgave her. Nicole was reluctant to try again with EJ mainly cause he slept with her sister and Sami...AGAIN. Okay fastforward to 2012, Nicole is pregnant again after leaving EJ for sleeping with you guessed it....SAMI!. Nicole was so damn mad at EJ that she basically told him for 8 months that he was not the baby's father and he kind of knew it. Nicole was actually building a friendship during that period with Daniel Jonas and passing the baby off as Rafe He
rnandez's. There was a few chances for EJole to reconcile during that period but Nicole was just too hurt because she really loved EJ and really did not want him to stick his pickle into Sami. I was not watching DOOL at this point but I do know that Nicole did give birth to Daniel Rafael but the baby was stillborn. Nicole ran into Jennifer Horton at the town square afterwards and make it look as Jennifer pushed her down a flight of stairs and made her lose the baby. Jennifer Horton is like an angel in Salem that apparently can do no wrong and she is next on the list. Anyway so when the truth about the baby came out, Everyone hated Nicole. Daniel hated Nicole. Rafe will still not really speak to Nicole and she was at the opening of his club last month. EJ found out the truth and had to be stopped from sending a hitman to kill Nicole. Fastforward about 2 or 3 years, Nicole is much more stable. Nicole's friendship with Daniel is still rocky but she is trying to be a better person. I loved

when she nearly whupped Serena's butt a few months ago...like the girl had it coming. Anyway.....EJ was murdered in October but he got to make amends with Nicole a few days before he died and there was a nice hug. Ejami had their bad moments and good moments but they loved each other on and off for about 6 years. There is actually still some debate as whether or not EJ is truly dead because Stefano sent Kristen to the morgue and she injected something weird into him.



Jasam - (Jason Morgan before his accident was actually Jason Quartermaine, a quartermaine heir and the son of 2 incredibly doctors. Plus at the time of his accident, Jason was in his first year of medical school. Sam Mccall is the original ride or die chick. Sam was a con artist that would marry men for money and was a salvage collector and lived on a boat and had a mentally handicapped brother that she took care of. Sam came to port charles in 2003 and it was not even 6 months before she was pregnant with Sonny's baby. (Sonny kind of has super sperm.) Anyway Jason become Sonny's enforcer right after his accident. So Jason agreed to say that he was the father of Sam's baby aka Baby Lila because Sonny was still married to Carly and did not want to ruin his happy family. It also was good for Jason because one of Carly's kid is his nephew that he is really close to. So Sam agrees to go along with the plan for some strange reason even though she was planning to give the baby up for adoption.

Jason and Sam are like so cute during the pregnancy and they end up living together. Jason actually begins to believe that he is the father of Lila and falls for the little baby, awww. Then disaster happens, Alexis the witch as she was at the time got into an argument with Sam because she needed the stem cells to save Kristina(Krissy is also Sonny's kid...super sperm!) and Sam was not going for it. In the midst of the argument, Sam's water broke and she was not due for weeks. There was a choice to save Either Sam or Baby Lila and Jason had to make that choice. Baby Lila was buried shortly afterwards and it was a terrible funeral...I still cry. Sad About a few months later, Jason and Sam become a couple. They are pretty happy for a few years until Alexis is revealed to be Sam's long lost mother and then Sam gets shot so Jason breaks up with her because he wants to keep her mob. Sam is the kind of chick that will hold a gun for her man, so she was cool with the mob. Anyway around September

0f 2006, there was a blackout. Elizabeth aka Lizzard aka Lizho aka pumpkinheaded ho aka just a thristy trick climbed up 27 flights of stairs in a blackout to sleep with Jason and that is when Jake was conceived. On the same night, Sam slept with Ric but nothing came out of that except for pure hatred. Eventually Jason and Sam did forgive each other for their indiscretions and things were okay but creepy for a while with them. Then Sam found out by standing outside of the hospital room that Jason was actually Jake's father. Sam and Jason were pretty much over by that point but Sam kept the secret of Jake's paternity for months from Lucky. Lucky thought he was Jake's father but he was also fighting a pill addiction and nobody wanted to put him over the edge. Okay Jason and Sam pretty much hated after that. Jason threatened to kill Sam multiple times. Sam watched as Jake was kidnapped by a crazy unstable woman. Spinelli was trying to find ways to destroy Sam. Sam sent some hoods to scare

Elizabeth and her kids. Basically at that point, Jason and Sam were throwing verbal swords at each other. Sam hooked up with Lucky for a while and they were cute together. Jason tried to be with Elizabeth but realized that she was nothing more than a thristy trick and a part of him still loved Sam. Fastforward to 2010/2011, Sam and Jason reconcile. Sam gets a surgery that allows her to have kids because the original shooting kind of left a nasty scar on her uterus and the surgery is successful. Sam and Jason become engaged and Jason gives her a deadbolt for an engagement ring(dumbest gift ever!). Sam and Jason get married on September 23, 2011. On the honeymoon, Sam is believed to be raped by psycho franco but it is revealed years later that it never happened. Anyway Sam finally does get pregnant and what should be a happy time is not, because she has no idea who the father is and this causes a ripple effect between Jason and Sam. Their relationship is really on the rocks on this point.

Daniel Edward Morgan is born on June 1st, 2012 in a hotel room. There is a babyswitch with Tea Delgado's from Llanview and Sam believes for months that her baby is dead. I want to say around October 2012, Sam finally finds out the truth and is reunited with Danny. Jason and Sam get back together and things are good for about 2 minutes but on that same night, Jason is murdered by Cesar Faison. Not too long after that, Sam finds out that Jason was her baby's father. Sam tries to move with her life and dates Silas Clay but his crazy presumed dead wife ends all that. Now Sam is with Patrick and they are pretty cute but it won't last mainly because Jason is alive. Jason is Jake Doe and has no idea who he is and you will never guess who took him in, Elizabeth. The only person that knows Jake Doe is Jason is Nikolas and that is Sam's cousin. Jake Doe has tried to kidnap his own wife and kill her and he does not even know it. Danny can kind of sense that Jake Doe is his father but who is going

to listen to a 3 year old(Danny got SORASED a little). Lizzard actually almost slept with Jake Doe last week until the fake wife that Ric hired showed up and put a stop to all of that. I actually hope that Jason gets his memory back soon because Michael is getting on my nerves and he needs to be taken down a notch or 2. Basically Jasam loved each other and they had their good and bad moments but they always found their way back to each other. Sam and Jason are like the modern day bonnie and clyde.



Stecky -(Steve Mcdonald owns a cab company and is always broke and has a good heart but is very unlucky in love. Becky Granger is a crackwhore from a horrible background and has actually been in jail a few times). Okay Steve and Becky get together after Nick Grimshaw tries to work out things with Sarah Platt and Michelle says Sayonara to Steve.

Steve and Becky are pretty happy for a very long time even though they have to deal with Steve's tricky baby mama, Tracy. Their first wedding did not really happen because Becky had gotten drunk...like super plastered. The second wedding did happen but Becky got arrested afterwards. Becky cannot have kids because she has severe bruises on the inside of her stomach and that is what caused 2 miscarriages. Okay no adoption agency will give Steve and Becky a baby because of the whole prison record thing, so they buy a baby named Max from Kylie. Kylie is Becky's little troubled and weird sister.

Steve and Becky love Max and spoil him rotten up until Kylie decides that she wants to be a mother again. Becky is not really forthcoming to giving Max back but Steve does and he calls the social or in this country "child protective services". Becky absolutely ends up hating Steve for calling the social and files for Divorce and in the midst of all of that, Steve goes and sleeps with Tricky Tracy and gets her pregnant...with twins.

Becky hates Tracy with the fire of a thousand suns and nearly commits suicide when she finds out about the babies...although it was probably unintentional. Tracy takes advantage of Becky's situation and blames her for the miscarriage that Tracy has. But Tracy had already lost the babies beforehand that same day. Becky is the kind of chick that would never hurt a child or harm a kid no matter how mad she is. For the next few months, Becky tries to tell Steve the truth but he is not hearing it.

Steve has pretty much written becky off like a bad habit. Okay Becky does some pretty illegal stuff in order to prove the truth and by illegal I mean going into confidential medical records with the help of Gail Platt. On the day that Steve is supposed to marry Tracy, the truth is revealed. Becky busted out the envelope and showed it to Steve and all that wedding mess was over. Here is the stupid part, Steve actually tries to get Becky back after this. I mean like airport scene back because Becky is leaving town with Danny.

Danny was a guy who Becky met while doing business for streetcars. Becky is like you had your chance and you blew it, steve. Becky gets on Danny's plane and drinks champagne and goes to barbados. Last anyone heard of Bex, she was married to Danny and raising his son. What I like about Becky is because she showed everyone up. This chick went from a crackwhore to a busineswoman in like 5 or 6 years and was still the down to the bone type chick. Steve and Becky were pretty cute but really stupid forces blew them apart.


Tash -(Nash Brennan was kind of a playboy and owned a vineyard. Tess Buchanan was one of the alters of someone named Jessica Buchanan and came from money...big money.)

An Alter is apart of a multiple personality...it's one of the personalities. There were 3 main personalities. Jessica, Bess, and Tess. Bess was the gatekeeper who kept things in order. Tess was the party girl. Jessica was the sweet maternal type.

Nash and Tess meet at a pool party in the hamptons. Tess steals Nash's wallet and Nash throws Tess into a pool...where her panties fall off. Tess and Nash develop a relationship from there and they are smoking hot until Antonio comes back. Antonio was Jessica's husband and wanted Tess to be reintegrated.

Reintergreation is throwing a multiple personality back in it's rightful place and getting healthy again. After some mess with Antonio and the birth of Bree, Tess and Nash finally end up together and are happy for a while. Their happiness is actually short lived because Nash falls through a plate glass window and dies from his injuries during the go red ball.


There is also Josh and Reva who got together after Reva married his father, H.B. There is Simon and Katie. There is Greenlee and Leo. There is also Ridge and Brooke. Ridge was a rich kid while Brooke was a caterer and came from a working class family.

There is Spinelli and Maxie. Spinelli is like this super sweet geeky dude who is too cute for words and is a millionaire and has created his own video game and published a book. Maxie is a self-absorbed diva with abandonment issues that cares more about fashion than humanity.

There is Will Ryan and Gwen Norbeck. When those 2 got together, Will had just gotten out of prison for killing his uncle's fiancee and Gwen was a waitress that was pregnant with the town detective's grandson.


I could name so many couples that remind me of B/A that it is not even funny. But these couples remind me of B/A because of the following things:


-The guy and girl come from highly different backgrounds(Buffy was basically a heiress of sorts and Angel was a rat eater.)

- There is always some psycho villain trying to push his or her into the relationship(Much like Faith in S3.)

-The guy left the girl to give her a better life multiple times(Much like Angel has done repeatedly.)

-The girl keeps trying to move on from her love but with lackluster results(Um...Buffy has done that with at least 4 guys and she is not married or knocked up by any of them and most of those relationships barely lasted a year much less a month).

- Years and Years could pass but the couple will still love each other and still speak highly of each other(I.e Buffy's little speech in "selfless" and Angel's little temper tantrum during the nightclub scene in "TGIQ". This couple has loved each other for nearly 20 years but they were only together for 3... that is a love that stands the test of time.)

- The fandoms have crazy fights just like ours although I can't repeat some of the words that I have seen posted.





I cannot watch "scandal". I did it one time and it was creepy as hell.

Same thing with "Vampire Diaries". I watched it one time and it looked like a supernatural version of one tree hill and I love one tree hill. Smile

I was going to watch the originals but too much vampire shows nowadays look like they are from the disney channel. The best vampire shows to come along in recent years were "True Blood" and "Moonlight".

I only stopped Watching "True Blood" after the whole russell edington thing. I did not need to see that man tear a dude's heart out of his chest while doing the weather report.

I tried and tried again to get into Twilight but oh it was just as boring as "Avatar" and I fell asleep multiple times while watching that.



Luke and Laura were a pretty cute couple although I think Luke belongs with Holly but that is another story for another day. LnL's wedding was pretty highly rated and had one of the best fight scenes I have seen on a soap opera between Luke and Scotty, still brings a tear to my eye.

I was not born when Luke and Laura got married. I actually was not around until they came back to Port Charles and ended up dealing with the Frank Smith/Roseanne Drama. Yes, THAT Roseanne was on GH. Luke and Laura were really destroyed by the last writing regime and that pissed off a lot of longtime fans. Even now Luke is going through his own mess and people are wondering where is Laura. I do not think Genie Francis will ever completely come back to GH and I do not blame her. GH is really dumb right now.

The only other couple that I can think of who got married after a rape was EJ Dimera and Sami Brady from Days of our lives. The rape happened during a snowstorm and EJ was blackmailing Sami about something that happened and the only way that she could keep the secret was to sleep with EJ. Sami ended up pregnant with twins and then had another child with EJ the following her and tried to kill him repeatedly and sadly did not succeed.

I have no idea why EJ was married to Sami at the time of his death but I hope it gets retconned. Rape for some reason is not a huge topic in daytime american television and then again daytime television is not really known for hitting controversial topics nowadays. Like the only case of marital rape on the soaps with Roger Thorpe in the 70's, now he raped both of his wives. Yes, there was a time when you could not go to jail for raping your wife and Guidling light hit that topic head on. American soaps try to stray away from Controversial topics nowadays whereas the british ones will hit them head on with full speed.



If I were to tell you to watch soaps so you could see what I see, I would say B&B for the american soap and I would say Coronation Street for the british one but that is just want a good ol soapy fix.

If you were really want to see what I see when it comes to the comparisions of B/A, youtube all of those couples that I mentioned in this post. Tess and Nash(Tash), Bo and Hope(Bope), and everyone else. You will not be disappointed.



I do not support "Cangel" and "Nangel". I slightly support Frangel because I feel that Fred and Angel are on the same wavelength intelluctally.

If Buffy had stayed dead or married the immortal or did something that make it nearly impossible for her to reunite with Angel, I would ship Fangel.

Mainly because Faith and Angel come from the same tortured background and they respect each other and there is already a bond, although the brotherly/sisterly thing is nice too.

I do not support "Cangel" because I think that happened primarily cause Angel was confused and in a lot of pain. This guy had lost the love of his life, had a baby, watched the baby mama die in the rain, watched the kid get kidnapped into a another dimension and then seen the kid come back as a crazy hormonal teenager, and all of that happened within the course of a year.

Angel loved Cordelia but as a sister and as a friend but nothing more. I think that Angel was lonely and sad and not thinking straight because of all of the aforementioned. I have no doubt in my mind that even if Cordelia had not died in "You're Welcome", there was no way that "Cangel" was not going to happen. Cordelia always knew that Angel's heart belonged to Buffy. Maybe "Cangel" would have been together for a short time but there was no way that they were going to be endgame. Actually when it comes to Cordelia, I always thought she still loved Xander a little bit and when she heard about Anya and the wedding, maybe it broke her heart and caused her to do really stupid stuff. Love makes you go wacky.

As for "Nangel", I never supported that. I thought it was ignorant, forced, and completely sad. I still believe that to this day that Wesley should have wonked on the head for encouraging that hot mess to happen. Nina was ready for Angel to make a committment to her after 2 or 3 dates, can you say clingy stalky clown? Cause I can. When the big stuff was about to go down, Nina would mysteriously show up. I still believe to this day that Nina was a secret mole for Wolfram and Hart along with Eve. I actually believe that Nina was in cahoots with the immortal because her behaviour during the beginning of "Power Play" was super suspicious. Nina was no more a werewolf than Wesley's father was a cyborg. I believe that Nina was feeding information back to the circle of the black thorn and that is what caused them to make Angel sign over his shanshu as a sign of loyalty because they knew he was going to screw them over. I believe that Angel was going to send Nina out of town because he was suspicious of her and did not want his final plans to leak back to the senior par
tners. I just feel that if the WB had not screwed us over and denied of a season 6, oh my suspicions and theories would have came true. I would have loved to see Buffy come back and whup Nina's ass just for betraying Angel. I am talking out in the middle of the street, jerry springer, trailer park trash, take off my ear rings type beatdown. I was reading "After The Fall" for a while until the site stopped getting paid for so I do not know what happened between Nangel. All I know is when I started reading the issue of S8/ATS when Angel goes to see Connor, Angel did not want to talk about Nina and definitely did not care that she was married. So I am guessing that they had some kind of a beef or a falling out.

Angel would have NEVER slept with Nina in "Power Play" if he was not heartbroken and upset about Buffy and the Immortal. I love Angel and he is a very smart guy but when he is angry, he tends to do really dumb stuff(I.e most of season 2 and Connor's conceivement). Plus sleeping with Nina was really stupid because he could have risked losing his soul.


As for that sexual morals stuff, I hope that if a BTVS miniseries is ever made, it is on HBO or Showtime or Netflix. I hate network censorship with the fire of a thousand suns.

Soaps have not changed much since the 50's. There is still a lack of realism. There is still not a lot of minorities on a soap opera. The sex scenes are very tame and boring as hell compared to something like Orange is the new black.


I had no idea that Buffy was having an orgasm when I first watched that scene with Angel biting her. I just thought that her eyes were rolling in the back of her eyes and she was dying. I didn't find out that juicy tidbit until years later.

It does not even look like an orgasm until somebody explains it to you.


A lesbian relationship and kiss on screen might have been controversial in 2001 but it is not now. You had Noah and Luke on ATWT. You have Will and Sonny and Paul on DOOL. You have Lucas and Brad and Felix on GH. You have Cosima and Delphine on Orphan Black. You have the entire prison population of Orange is the new black. You have the Logo channel. You had Sophie and Sian on Coronation Street. You had Olivia and Natalia on the Guiding Light. You have Jamal and his boyfriends on Empire. You had Oliver and Fish on OLTL. I could list so many examples but basically LGBT is more prevalent on Television than ever before. None of those couples were somebody's male fantasy.

Alyson Hannigan and Amber Benson probably have no idea of how much that first kiss of Willow and Tara really opened the door for LGBT couples and characters to be on television. Maybe it was not accepted in 2001 but it is here to stay in 2015 and the LGBT ain't going nowhere. Smile


The only thing in soaps that even remotely reminds me of Xander's love of his teacher is Schulyer and Starr on OLTL. It was a really disgusting storyline that thankfully did not last long.

I love "IOHEFY" and that is one of the most beautiful episodes of Season 2.


Usually when a soap character has a one night stand, it usually ends in getting knocked up with someone's baby that does not belong to their husband or boyfriend or the mailman. It always amazed me that Buffy never got pregnant. I mean Buffy was not a massive whore but condoms do break but I guess the whole slayer not being able to have kids things kind of play into that.


Sybil, I am a phone sex operator. I can tell you this that it is possible for a man to fall in love with a dog and not in the cute way that you think of....let's just put it that way.


Public sex between Rupert and Joyce? I can see that and I will be washing my eyes out for a week. Actually that kind of thing just happened on GH with Julian and Alexis. Alexis is living with Sam because her house just burnt down and well Sam and Patrick walked in on her having sex with Julian. Bleech.


I think BDSM and I think 50 shades of Grey. I am glad that Noxious never took spuffy that far in season 6.


I have never been able to understand the buffybot. The buffybot is probably the dumbest robot that I ever seen in my 21 years of being alive and watching television. I would think that if you are designing this robot to have sex, what's wrong with putting an electric brain in her? Like seriously?


I would have liked to see Buffy have a baby. I think a baby would have probably matured Buffy and that is something she needs to really do. I think seeing the house and the spare room for a nursery and an office kind of made Buffy think about the future and that is something that she really does not want to face.


Is it too much for me to hope that maybe Buffy kills Spike since he will probably lose his soul and open the gates of hell? Oh wait where has that happened before?


Luke and Laura stopped having the great love years ago. The writers completely destroyed that couple and are doing more damage to them now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger
sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 871

PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 5:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Last note first. No. Angel didn't risk his soul with Nina. He found out that losing his soul with Buffy wasn't about SEX. He lost it AFTER sex. Trying to lose his soul, he failed; Darla and Cordelia--he shouted BUFFfY, for she is the deepest part of himself.

RECALL: First his friends apologize, he goes deeper and next he fixes things with Connor, then he fixes things with Cordelia, and finally faces he (secretly) wants the normal things a man wants--love, giving it and receiving it; and though he was using the fantasy of Cordy--it was his own REVEAL to HIMSELF that BUFFY IS THE EXPOSED TRUTH. SHE is the deepest wish for himself and proof of fulfillment for himself--he got HER, it would ALSO mean he got his "amends." The reality? He didn't. He would lose his soul. The entire point of "the plot" that would bring that about. IF he DID NOT lose his soul, then what Buffy is to him is actually false.

Thanks for the full rundown, babytesse!—I didn’t mean for you to have to do all that work; I just needed the names of the shows to start the “research.” But “ye old youtube” should have been another obvious choice

The fact you have “so many” I honestly think that B/A and “epic” happens pretty regularly and transcendent seems to require aliens or witches suddenly show up with the infinite cup of coffee on the eternal living room couch or in the “bedroom” that mostly takes place in a hospital.

However, I cannot argue “the events” you described as completely bizarre regarding the year in a life of Angel. But we were warned that this is a vampire with a soul inviting discussions of heaven and hell as dimensional “other.”

I would venture that your interest in soap is the emotional that drives sexuality and not a whole lot more. I just happen to think a baby isn’t a plot twist to insert into things—after all, there is a choice about that, even if the only gender that actually has the “consequence” of sex, like it or not, is female.

I’m thinking of “Mad Men,” a kind of soap opera, in a historical context, showing intelligent men (drugging their own sense things in the world really are not “balanced”) are self absorbed and entitled with assumed control—even more flagrant is the WASP only perspective that confines their lives unnaturally, in a “provincial” landscape, for supposedly such great “sophistication,” even as Peggy Olsen, ditches her baby for a career—and it hasn’t been dragged back in to “use against her rising power.”

And there it is. Women have the babies and “naturally” are the caretakers from their own siblings to babysitter of others, and then their own child/children, and then their own parents, spouses, exes, and friends and also DARE not (question) “disrupt” the “arrangement of “efficiency” defined by (white) men or religions that seem to place men only as the “deciders” for a male god. (And BTW, male nurses are also paid much better than female nurses) So that “era” has really NOT passed and neither has. E.R.A. So tell me how all this soapy sexuality has any MEANING?

Showing a dick on HBO isn’t remotely comparable to what is required of women to actually show and CARRY in the action. And that penis isn’t EVER erect, even though actors “can’t help” erections and the lack thereof from sheer tediousness of “showing sex.” However, the “butt shot” to be so “daring” rather makes both gender assignments seem “neutered” to me. And the hermaphrodite never gets the “butt shot.”

It is the “the human face,” that “tells me” what all this coupling is about and IMO “Joss” did superbly on network tv.

Well, except “ConCord” (a giant plane that really…please laugh. Charisma was so pregnant “Connor” was lying across a chair in a completely different “plane” above her—“that” had to be three feet long to reach her.

I didn’t see Luke and Laura—I read about it, too—am I even old enough—and you are only 21—Jakers! Well, that show is” ancient” . HA! But, at least, I knew the name of the show. Wah wah. Consolation booby prize. Hee.

“Scandal” IS utterly creepy, because people are relating on a lot more complicated levels than “just sex” or “domination indulgence”—the mental brinksmanship of power is highly charged (emotionally for them AND the viewer) in why these people are (sexually?) screwed up! Ha! Which, I gather, is why so many of these ‘dominators’ end up as megalomaniacs or want to be “submissives” and are either entitled or ashamed of it, as far as TV goes. “Normal” is actually shown to be “stolen” and “dangerous.” Yeah. That’s “real”—that is emotional “cheating” or “self justification?”

I guess I don’t see “coupling is me” OTHER than “spiritually” and that is also what B/A is about for me. (Also Willow/Buffy in “the mother whore” fecundity of all life’s children shown in “triggering” the potential to actual slayer(s). Which done with two women makes it so clear to me, that the “union of opposites” is not about gender or sexuality, but one’s own inner “balance” of principles.

And Freud isn’t all there is, ya know. SEX and the physical proximity of sexual drive-id-in the brainstem is next to that of “thantos”/death) as the ONLY force that affects our drive toward the “little deaths” that create “individuation” is too primitive, even for the most primitive of peoples. There are “shadow worlds” that are universal, and reveal themselves in dream, whether one has ever heard of a sphinx or gryphon, just as there are ‘higher’ planes of experience—but even these are “expressed” in lowly creatures—self sacrifice for the one or the group, for example.

However, these worlds of opposition, of the development of character, individuation from authoritative powers of control, whether familial or institutional -hevean and hell right here on planet earth, for example, is why B/A MEANS something to me. And the “show” of it is JUNGIAN, not Freudian, IMO.

I feel that your interest is in “the emotional” that drives sexuality (and that is individual in my sense of it versus gender assignment and/or general group label) and for me is not the emotional POINT of sexuality’s expression.

Also “thinking about things” is never the same as ACTING upon thoughts. So “no,” thinking a hateful thought does not equal “murder” as proclaimed by some (religions)—hateful thoughts do more to harm you materially (body and mind are both material). That’s a proven fact.

Which is why THIS “show” of Buffy—not actually “showing” the sex—is so upsetting—even if I am supposed to recognize that the “show” that “didn’t show” means it is “hinky,” going in and out. But they really are telling me that Buffy and Angel have ALWAYS been inappropriate, season 8, as shameful, and finally as “awkward” and “silly.” Thanks. I really NEEDED to take all that into account when Angel discovers Buffy has changed and Buffy is actually “happy.” And Buffy went to Spike to have it. What’s Angel got to offer. Love? Who cares? Love wanes, love changes, love fades, love turns into hate, love is whatever any one decides to call anything EXCEPT what LOVE actually is.



HUGS!
sybil
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kairos
Forum Gargoyle
Moderator


Joined: 22 Oct 2009
Posts: 1419

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 1:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just popping in to remind everyone that you can always start up a new thread. If you're cool with this one that's fine, there's no rule against megathreads or anything, but it may be easier to keep track of the conversation if you split it up here and there. Smile
_________________
But there the silver answer rang: not Death, but Love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website AIM Address
RomancexGirl
Warrior


Joined: 05 May 2013
Posts: 175
Location: Arizona, USA.

PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2015 6:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonnaleah wrote:

See I think it's exactly the kind of thing Joss would do. Look up "dishing out cruelty" in the dictionary and there's a picture of Joss Whedon. While I don't agree, a lot of fans think the S8 storyline was cruel to B/A fans. Back in the day Cordy/Angel fans wanted Cangle about as much as Spike fans want Spuffy....The WB even had a big poll up on their site asking "Should Angel and Cordy take the plunge", and the comments were as heated as anything you'd see on a Spuffy vs Bangle poll. Imo "Waiting in the Wings" and the Cordy/Angel sex was a way to satisfy that part of fandom without really giving them anything. The make-out session during the ballet only happened because they were under a spell and of course the sex in "Awakening" never happened at all.


True ... but Joss's record's with adding misery to his couples aren't that simplified. The Cordy/Angel thing never even got off the ground---at least officially. Spuffy wasn't much different, that is until now. IMO, that makes it taken at least a little more seriously. I guess I can see how writing in the book might cause Buffy/Spike to be together, but that said I don't think Buffy's feelings are made up. Exaggerated possibly, influenced maybe, but if the book does anything it probably makes her act on any unresolved feelings or thoughts for Spike she may have. This would fit in the give and take category. Giving the fans what they want but at the same time not really. Gives Spuffy a chance and has real companionship between them, but was brought about by forced circumstance. Not to mention it has the blend of "free will" and "outside influences" trope Joss loves. Now this argument I can get behind. Regardless of our differing opinions on the depths of her feelings for Spike, there's one thing that we can both agree on and that is it's highly unusual for Buffy to take the next step with Spike. Her character always hated running towards dead end relationships, at least since Angel. If this season is supposed to be about maturity, then wouldn't her leaping straight into another impossible relationship be the opposite?

bonnaleah wrote:
If fans want something badly enough they usually get it....only not really. Heck the Spuffy of S6 carried the warning "this isn't real but I just want to feel". So while I'm not pinning my hopes on it, when I looked at the season as a whole instead of just focusing all my attention on the Spuffy of it, I came to the conclusion that there's way more going on here than Buffy's love life, or if she's unattainable or not. Someone writing in the book would make sense of the nonsensical...and just out of practicality would answer the question of why writing new rules in the book has been highlighted so heavily this season if no one is ever going to write in the book.


I feel like I know Buffy's character well. It just doesn't feel like her to pursue Spike seriously this way. There is so much character evidence for that ... but at the same time, I don't want to be one of those people oblivious to the possibility the actual character is different than your interpretation. It's not like we have a lot of information for this theory yet. Maybe I was just wrong?

I also agree that it still makes no sense to me for anyone to be supporting Buffy being with Spike, not when it has no future in the long-term. But again, who are we to say they're just trying to be supportive? Maybe they're tired of seeing her lonely. I can see Willow possibly vouching for that at least.

bonnaleah wrote:
Why for instance is it a plot point? Why all the reminders about forced love not being real? Why waste limited page comic book dialouge on something of no importance? These are questions I have.


I'm not quite sure how "forced love" has been a huge plot point this season. It's only had a few lines of dialogue from what I've seen. Hardly enough proof for a plot point ... but maybe to something related. Perhaps not "forced love", but maybe "forced relationship". I'm not saying this will definitely happen, but I'm more open-minded to that possibility.


bonnaleah wrote:

Yes you're right, it is only a theory but imo there are more reasons to entertain the "book writing theory" than to entertain the Buffy is "unattainable girl" who always chases what she can't have, and will now fall madly in love with Spike theory".


It certainly makes more sense, but I'm not sure anymore if the writers even have sense. Again, I strongly believe this idea of Buffy acting on being with Spike is jarringly against her character, but what if the writers don't care about her character? What if they're just giving Spike a purpose this season and pleasing the Spuffy fans, bending Buffy's characterization to get there? That possibility is my biggest complaint. I'm perfectly fine with whatever Buffy's reasons are for being with someone if they stay true to who she is, but I'm not getting that vibe here. I don't want Buffy to be plot-driven rather than character-driven. OCCness to her main heroine to this degree for the sake of pairing is a no no.

Whatever is really going on here, I can guarantee Spuffy will crumble this season one way or the other. Joss never keeps couples happy for long and if it's not the book theory causing problems, something else will. Spuffy never striked me as the "long run" couple. Maybe a couple arcs or so at most, regardless of whether or not it's going to negatively affect B/A.

bonnaleah wrote:
I don't think the person writing in the book is aware of what they are doing or have done.....so I don't believe Xander is knowingly writing in the book.....I'm speculating that he is being manipulated, or is perhaps under thrall or something.


Xander might be seen as the weakest link of the group and is being used to get to Buffy. He's been under a lot of stress since Dawn was "reset" and he has no superpowers so it would be easy for an enemy manipulate him (especially with how easy he is to thrall). Particularly if he's having therapist sessions. I think I remember it was said in an interview S10 would focus a lot about Xander so, on this at least, I am in complete agreement with you.

bonnaleah wrote:
Xander has undergone some radical personality changes since being in therapy with Dr. Mike.
Who is Dr.Mike? Why have we never seen him? Why is Xander so taken with him? Could Dr. Mike be a daywalking vampire? Could he be Dru?


What are the radical personality changes again? I'd like to line them all up. You know, other than the fact Xander is rooting for Spike all of a sudden. Because seriously, frenemies or not, what the hell. Xander may tolerate Buffy being in a relationships with vampires, but he never supported it.

bonnaleah wrote:
All this stuff has to tie in together or why include it in the book. My speculation is that it all leads back to Xander and the mysterious Dr Mike.....which in turn affects Spike since he rooms with Xander and they are now suddenly best buds....and then Buffy because of her new relationship with Spike.


Every bit of evidence you used in your argument for Xander being under thrall or manipulated makes complete sense. I have no doubt this is all tied in somehow for his story. But my question is, how exactly would this affect Spike and Buffy? If Xander's the target, then what could possibly be written in to cause the Spuffy side-effect? It can't be very specific, that's for sure. And if Buffy/Spike being together really are a product of writing in the book, then how come we haven't gotten enough hints for that? Wouldn't this already be implied? Is it too soon?

I can't imagine what could possibly be written down in the book that would trigger a Buffy and Spike relationship, even as a side-effect. What would the enemy gain from that?

bonnaleah wrote:
I so totally agree. Way too many bizzare happenings going on to just blindly accept as truth....especially when we know and have seen differently. Things written in the book have to be worded perfectly in order to escape the Monkey Paw effect. Spike became enamoured with Dracula, as did all vampires after it was written that Dracula was the lord of all vampires, so I guess something could also effect all humans and their behaviour if it was written properly.


Just for curiosity's sake, if it turns out your theory's wrong and Buffy started this relationship with Spuffy completely without influence, would you be okay with that? I noticed before you seemed to see it as Buffy just choosing to see what kind of relationship she can have with Spike past friendship, but now you're leaning more towards the book argument.

I wonder what the other fans---neutrals for instance---think about all of this. Do they see it as weird too or is it just us Bangel fans? I'd check their reactions myself, but I vowed to stay away from doing that because of how prominent the Spuffy is this season. I don't need to check other forums to know Spuffy fans are probably overrunning every one of them and my B/A heart is too sensitive atm to read the negative Angel/Bangel thoughts. Embarassed
_________________
"Crazy or not, that kind of love never dies."
- Klaus, TVD (Perfect Bangel quote)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2015 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I'm not quite sure how "forced love" has been a huge plot point this season. It's only had a few lines of dialogue from what I've seen. Hardly enough proof for a plot point ... but maybe to something related. Perhaps not "forced love", but maybe "forced relationship". I'm not saying this will definitely happen, but I'm more open-minded to that possibility.


I don't think I explained my thoughts very well. I wasn't saying that forced love was a plot point, but that writing in the book was a plot point. So far everything has pretty much focused on the book and the new rules that will be written in it. Everyone wants the book and it's been stolen and written in twice...Xander wrote in it for Dracula and Clem wrote in it for Harmony. Andrew had the book and was going to use it to bring Tara back. D' Hoffran wanted the book. We have representives from all groups involved in negotiating what will be written in the book. We have text showing that all the characters except Buffy and Giles have been tempted to write in the book, and we've been told about the Monkey Paw effect. So I think "the book" and what gets written in in is a big plot point this season. After considering all that first, I think it's important that forced love has been specifically mentioned 4 times...unless of course they think the fandom is too dim witted to understand it the first time it was said. So my thinking is that since so much emphasis has been placed on the book... and so much emphasis has been made about how what gets written in the book effects the future of the world, that a lot of effort has gone into explaining the dangers of writing in the book, if that's not what is going to happen.

Quote:
I feel like I know Buffy's character well. It just doesn't feel like her to pursue Spike seriously this way. There is so much character evidence for that ... but at the same time, I don't want to be one of those people oblivious to the possibility the actual character is different than your interpretation. It's not like we have a lot of information for this theory yet.


I know exactly what you mean. I feel I know Buffy well too.....and yet she has done things I thought she would never do. My Buffy wouldn't have ever been in a sexual relationship with soulless Spike....she wouldn't have stolen, she wouldn't have sat nonchalantly in a car and watched people getting slaughtered, She wouldn't have slept with Satsu, and she wouldn't have hit on her sister's boyfriend. I'm pretty sure if I were one of those people that only started watching the series in S6 or 7 that I wouldn't love the character the way I do and I guess if the writers veer her off too far from what I believe her to be I'll probably stop caring and say goodbye to her.

Quote:
Every bit of evidence you used in your argument for Xander being under thrall or manipulated makes complete sense. I have no doubt this is all tied in somehow for his story. But my question is, how exactly would this affect Spike and Buffy? If Xander's the target, then what could possibly be written in to cause the Spuffy side-effect?


Good question. My ponderings haven't answered the question of who would benefit from a Buffy/Spike hookup, or who would benefit by something added to the book, but here's an idea.... since Dawn's memory or lack of, is also a plot point this season, maybe it's as simple as Xander wanting Dawn to remember loving him. It wouldn't be the first time that Xander did something that backfired. The spell he used in Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered affected everyone except the person it was intended for.

In the other thread Sybil had posted that those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, and it's wierd because Buffy has in fact made that same point earlier this season when she and Spike had the conversation about their S6 relationship.....either insinuating or outright saying it was a mistake. Then telling Spike that remembering your mistakes is what keeps you from repeating them. Why has she now forgotten that? In that same issue Buffy was saying how Spike wasn't so bad soulless....but does she really think that or have her memories been altered. Xander has apparently forgotten that he hates vampires...Willow has apparently forgotten that Buffy will get all old and wrinkly and die while Spike will stay young and handsome forever....

I'm not pushing Xander being under thrall or being manipulated as absolute truth, I'm just trying to figure out what's going on by using the things we've learned so far and then coming up with possibilities. Something is seriously not right though, and I do think Xander and Dr. Mike are the cause of it. Which means nothing really, since my speculation track record is very poor.

Quote:
I noticed before you seemed to see it as Buffy just choosing to see what kind of relationship she can have with Spike past friendship, but now you're leaning more towards the book argument.


Well the idea that someone had written in the book occured after I did a re-read of the season. Some things stood out for me that hadn't when I was reading each issue as it was released. I think it's hard to make sense of a story when it's dribbled out so slowly, so there's that. Buffy choosing to see if she and Spike can take their friendship to a new level is what was actually presented in text.

Quote:
Just for curiosity's sake, if it turns out your theory's wrong and Buffy started this relationship with Spuffy completely without influence, would you be okay with that


You know, I don't have the hate for souled Spike that many on this board seem to have. As I have said before I see him as a totally different person than S6 Spike. I also don't think it's very realistic or fair to expect Buffy to live her life like a nun. Buffy and Angel both have a big heartbreaking problem in that they love each other so much and yet now have to very much believe that there isn't a chance in hell that they can ever be together. After all the years of waiting for their someday, their someday happened, but at a terrible price, and I have to think they both consider the Twilight thing as "their last chance." You only have to put yourself in their place to imagine the sense of hoplessness they feel about their chances of ever getting to live their life together. So then what are each of them to do? Angel doesn't have a lot of options but should Buffy really be expected to live a lonely, loveless, companionless life because she can't have the person she wants to be with? I don't think so. All that being said, I won't suffer through another round of Spuffy if it turns into a love relationship. Even though I know in my heart it will always be Angel in the end, I'll probably say goodbye to the Buffyverse and only continue with the Angelverse.



Quote:
It certainly makes more sense, but I'm not sure anymore if the writers even have sense. Again, I strongly believe this idea of Buffy acting on being with Spike is jarringly against her character, but what if the writers don't care about her character? What if they're just giving Spike a purpose this season and pleasing the Spuffy fans, bending Buffy's characterization to get there? That possibility is my biggest complaint. I'm perfectly fine with whatever Buffy's reasons are for being with someone if they stay true to who she is, but I'm not getting that vibe here. I don't want Buffy to be plot-driven rather than character-driven. OCCness to her main heroine to this degree for the sake of pairing is a no no.


Well no one knows Buffy, or writes Buffy the way Joss does, and even though he doesn't appear to be very involved this season, he was at the sumitt where the season was planned out...so I don't worry about the writers too much. Especially now that Gage has taken over. And I truly don't believe this season is all about pleasing the Spuffy fans....pacifying? maybe.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^I'm aware I am not the one to answer this, but I'm tempted to give comment (again) on the following issues:

Quote:
I also don't think it's very realistic or fair to expect Buffy to live her life like a nun.


No one wanted Buffy to be a "nun"...as I understood about what others say about this, it's not "literally" converting Buffy to live her life as a "holy" spinster...In my interpretation, Buffy, being in a "grown-up" age, SHOULD act & think like a grown up, meaning being RESPONSIBLE. The issue of "regression" during S6 was admitted by Joss himself. So there's no denying that Buffy DID regress. Now after such "regression" we only expect her to be somewhere "opposite" of regression and that is "to improve"...Now, the MAIN question is, "IN WHAT WAY DID BUFFY "IMPROVE" AS A PERSON IF SHE WOULD CHOOSE BLONDIE VAMP AS A PARTNER FOR LIFE?"

This search for "finding" someone to love and be loved, in Buffy's case, has become the PRIORITY of her development, which my question would be WHY? Buffy has loved someone....Buffy is loved by someone...(or more.)... Gosh, when it comes to love or "romance", Buffy seemed to have an ABUNDANCE of it. Then why she was portrayed as if she's HUNGRY for love?

Going back again the comparison between Buffy and Faith. Faith's "journey" is NOT centered at ROMANCE. Like I said, this girl has a more "adult" way of view in romance. She DOES NOT have much expectations when it comes to her love life. She got a chance to have a "grown-up" and "normal" relationship with Woods. But I'm not sure what happened it didn't work out. Anyway, Faith's character is written around her "redemption" and how to "make" amends. As Eliza Dushku described Faith's current condition, "She is still learning to GROW-UP".

That's the essence of finding "self-love", "self-respect" and "self-worth" within ONE's self. Faith is doing that. Is there a manifestation that she wants to drown herself with someone and "live" happily-ever-after? I don't see any of it. In fact, Faith is MORE INDEPENDENT than Buffy has ever been. Buffy was just put in ISOLATION...but she's NOT INDEPENDENT.

The "nun" concept is about "enlightenment", IMO. It's not a literal concept that Buffy should be a spinster.

Truly, Buffy deserves NORMALITY as most of us girls aspire. If "normality" means MARRIAGE, FAMILY & CHILDREN. But to have it with blondie vamp?????? I don't have to reiterate my previous posts as well as others why blondie vamp's soul is "USELESS" and "NO DISTINCT RELEVANCE" on his personality and why her "continues" association with that jerk would ONLY dragged Buffy "downward" and "stuck" in regressed state.....C'mon, there are BETTER character to pair up with Buffy aside from that jerk, IF ONLY the writers WOULD DARE to pair her with someone else.

Quote:
And I truly don't believe this season is all about pleasing the Spuffy fans....pacifying? maybe.


As far I know, "to pacify" is synonymous "to appease"...or "to quell the anger"....

...In what way B/S fans needed "to be pacified"????
...Isn't it when you to try to "appease" someone, you have to "give in" on their terms?
...What are the "terms" of B/S fans for them to be "pacified"? Isn't it to see blondie vamp do ALL the following:

1) "triumphing" OVER Angel.
2) "making love" with Buffy. As in "LOVE" and NOT "CASUAL SEX".
3) "heralding" B/S as the BEST RELATIONSHIP in slayer/vampire verse.

Yes...we may have "early" speculations. Yes, this S10 might be another "could-have-been" plot for both B/S and B/A, as well.... But, IMO, more than the GRAPHICAL DEPICTION of B/S, the MAIN DISAPPOINTMENTS on this B.S. Storyline DID NOT MAINLY COME from seeing B/S "together" per se....But in seeing Buffy treated like a "bimbo" or "brainless" AGAIN by the writers. I mean, that's how I see it....

And I tried to answer it as "detached" with my feelings about Buffy/Angel. Like I said, B/A Season 8 was not my cup of tea, in general perspective. Though, as a B/A fan, it's NICE to see B/A "make love" again, even in graphic novel, because it's the FEELING of LONGING I have for these two that I would take "EVERYTHING" and "ANYTHING" that was all about B/A.
...It's only during the aftermath, that I realized that the sex between B/A wasn't felt RIGHT. It's GOOD to see...But that's NOT how I thought should have happened. Like I said on my old posts, it's NOT like IWRY where the "build up" or the "foreplay" to B/A sex was "properly" shown.

Now, IMO, unless I'm convinced otherwise, this "current" comic-version of Buffy is LESSER than Faith or with blondie vamp, himself, as far as MENTALITY is concerned....... In fact, if you could TAKE A LOOK a little CLOSER, you would see that blondie vamp (from S5 onwards) was presented (unbelievably) as someone who HAS MORE INSIGHTS than Buffy, herself. AND THIS WAS THE SAME SOULLESS CHARACTER WHO IN SEASON 2 WAS DECOY VILLAIN OF A LUNATIC DRUSILLA.

SO, as far as INSIGHTS is concerned, Dru was "greater" than blondie vamp. Blondie vamp was "greater" Buffy....therefore, THE LUNATIC Dru was "greater" than Buffy....Sorry but that was logic tells me, IF I was about to "follow" the storyline.

And I'm NOT comfortable by that logic. I don't think, anyone here would be.

ETA:

Going back to the issue of "pacifying" vs "pleasing"....if B/S fans were given the "terms" they wanted, wouldn't it "pleased" them by any means?
But, if they were not as brainless as I thought they generally are, they should know that Joss likes "pain". Now my hypotheses how "pain" shall be manifested in S9, are:

1) B/S "happy" state was ONLY a BIG LIE and FANTASY (created by perverts, IMO)

or

2) B/S "happy" state was GENUINE like B/A circa S2 and Buffy and Blondie vamp would have an EPIC ANGST coming in their way, as they realized that their "lovestory" is NOT MEANT TO BE.

OR....like I posted in comic section:

This could be a "change in formula", meaning B/S would continue the "happy" state without the "emotional" burden of pain/angst.

or

This could be a "change of lead pairing", in terms of LOVE STORY, and the lovestory tale of TRUE LOVE that we thought of B/A...is now being played by Buffy and Blondie Vamp.


I bet my life...the thought of B/S as the END-GAME is as horrifying as APOCALYPSE, itself. The ONLY TINY CONSOLATION I could get of that is the Buffy I admired on S1-S3 and (some of S5, as she sacrificed her life), was a LONG-TIME DEAD SLAYER. And the new slayer deserving to be paired with my Angel, is the ONE LEGITIMATE SUCCESSOR, namely Faith Lehane.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 3:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The issue of "regression" during S6 was admitted by Joss himself. So there's no denying that Buffy DID regress. Now after such "regression" we only expect her to be somewhere "opposite" of regression and that is "to improve"...Now, the MAIN question is, "IN WHAT WAY DID BUFFY "IMPROVE" AS A PERSON IF SHE WOULD CHOOSE BLONDIE VAMP AS A PARTNER FOR LIFE?"


Elle2 c'mon, don't you think you're jumping the gun a little bit? "When did Buffy choose Spike as a partner for life"? Because I've been reading this thing and that never happened. Buffy definitly regressed in S6, but do you really not consider S6 soulless Spike as a different person from souled Spike? I think if we are following the rules of the verse we must accept that Spike is a different person with a soul than he was without a soul.Without a soul Spike was nothing but a demon and now he is also a man. Buffy herself has separated the two in the same way she separates Angel/Angelus and I believe it is Joss' intention that we do too.

Quote:
This search for "finding" someone to love and be loved, in Buffy's case, has become the PRIORITY of her development, which my question would be WHY? Buffy has loved someone....Buffy is loved by someone...(or more.)... Gosh, when it comes to love or "romance", Buffy seemed to have an ABUNDANCE of it. Then why she was portrayed as if she's HUNGRY for love?


I don't see it that way. I think Buffy's lonely and horney. I think most people walking in her shoes would be lonely and horney too. I think Buffy is trying to cobble together some kind of normalcy and is trying to make due with the hand she's been delt. What she wants is a normal life but she doesn't think she's ever gonna get it. Unlike Faith, Buffy doesn't want a series of one night stands, and I'm sorry but I think Faith is the one with the problem here. Faith uses men without any regard to their feelings and then moves on. How is that more mature? Faith seeks redemption because she needs redemption. Buffy doesn't.

Quote:
Truly, Buffy deserves NORMALITY as most of us girls aspire. If "normality" means MARRIAGE, FAMILY & CHILDREN. But to have it with blondie vamp?????? I don't have to reiterate my previous posts as well as others why blondie vamp's soul is "USELESS" and "NO DISTINCT RELEVANCE" on his personality and why her "continues" association with that jerk would ONLY dragged Buffy "downward" and "stuck" in regressed state


Buffy is never going to have marriage, family, and children with Spike because Spike is a vampire. Just like she's never going to have marraige, family, and children with Angel unless he shanshu's. I agree that Spike's personality seems pretty much the same but I disagree that his soul is useless and irrevelant. He is no longer evil.

Quote:
As far I know, "to pacify" is synonymous "to appease"...or "to quell the anger"....

Yeah, I know what it means. Mother's often give their babies a pacifier to stop a baby from crying...sometimes the baby is hungry when it isn't time to eat but just sucking in the pacifier satisfies them. Even though the baby hasn't been fed it is fooled into thinking it has been.

Quote:
And I tried to answer it as "detached" with my feelings about Buffy/Angel. Like I said, B/A Season 8 was not my cup of tea, in general perspective. Though, as a B/A fan, it's NICE to see B/A "make love" again, even in graphic novel, because it's the FEELING of LONGING I have for these two that I would take "EVERYTHING" and "ANYTHING" that was all about B/A.
...It's only during the aftermath, that I realized that the sex between B/A wasn't felt RIGHT. It's GOOD to see...But that's NOT how I thought should have happened. Like I said on my old posts, it's NOT like IWRY where the "build up" or the "foreplay" to B/A sex was "properly" shown.


I loved S8 and not just for the sex. I loved having everything the B/A fan had argued for years laid out in text as gospel truth. I loved an end to the argument that Angel and Spike were equal in Buffy's heart. I loved that it was true that both of them had been waiting and hoping for "their someday"...I loved that Buffy and Angel were each the best of their kind....I loved, loved, loved, that B/A isn't a fantasy and everyone knows it. And I love that Buffy named Angel the love of her life and the person she wanted to live her life with. The sex was just icing on the cake. I really don't see any less build up than in IWRY. Once their hands touched in IWRY they got to it pretty quickly.

I don't want to give the idea that I'm ok with Spuffy, because I'm not....and like I said I won't stick around for it if that's truly where it's headed. But I don't believe it is. I just don't have the worry that you have. I don't think Spuffy is going anywhere and I question if it's even real. I could be wrong of course....but I'm willing to see where this thing is going before I throw in the towel.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2015 5:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^um...I'm not sure if whether my limited english vocabulary skills is the reason why I think my posts was misinterpreted in some ways..

but anyways, what is clear to me, is that you still have an amazing amount of optimisms in spite of all the "apprehensions" I've got in this B/S storyline. And that's good, because, somehow it "balances" the "negativity" (as Kairos pointed it out before) brought by "ranting" posts, such as mine.

I'm not going to discuss other "response" u made to my quotes, because I felt, it was not the "way" I wanted to be interpreted. Except to this one:


Quote:
I don't see it that way. I think Buffy's lonely and horney. I think most people walking in her shoes would be lonely and horney too. I think Buffy is trying to cobble together some kind of normalcy and is trying to make due with the hand she's been delt. What she wants is a normal life but she doesn't think she's ever gonna get it. Unlike Faith, Buffy doesn't want a series of one night stands, and I'm sorry but I think Faith is the one with the problem here. Faith uses men without any regard to their feelings and then moves on. How is that more mature? Faith seeks redemption because she needs redemption. Buffy doesn't.


What "time context" are we going to compare Buffy and Faith? Because, I based my "comparisons" of these two characters, currently, and that includes the comic-version. That I did, to point out what I think is NOT RIGHT in the characterization of Buffy's character from S6 onwards.

Now onto the highlighted points:
1) Buffy being horny and lonely --> Yes...this is a FACT that has been CONFIRMED in Season 6 and based on my previous posts before, the MAIN REASON why she was "sexually addicted" to blondie vamp on that season...instead of the "PRESS RELEASE" or LAME EXPLANATION that it was "SELF-HATE" that drove Buffy to do such act.
Now, fast forward Season 10. I have no contention that Buffy SHOULD NOT FEEL HORNY nor LONELY. No. I'm NOT in the POSITION to say SHE HAS NO RIGHT TO FEEL THAT WAY. But, my point is...MUST SEX BE THE ANSWER TO LONELINESS???? With ALL the experiences Buffy has had, as woman and as a grown-up person, is this the ONLY THING she has learned all her life. That "sleeping" with someone would take away loneliness? Is that the writers want to convey on Buffy's state of mind? Um..sorry, but I don't agree with it.

2) Buffy's "wants" for normalcy. --> First, we have to settle, what is NORMALCY meant for Buffy? What the term "normal" in your context? How the writers defined "normal"? If we have a concrete answer for that, then I'd go back to this topic to discuss.

3)Buffy doesn't want a series of one night stands --> um, is Satsu not a one-night stand? Even the B/A sex on S8, is not a one night stand?....So, since Buffy doesn't want A SERIES of ONE NIGHT STANDS, it would be okay is she has "series" of sex with blondie vamp now, because "sleeping" with one person more than once is not a one-night stand, even if you are NOT in-love with that person? ..Sorry, another, vocabulary obstacle...I'm confused whether or not one-night stand is literally "once" or series of "casual sex" with someone whom you know you don't love.

4) Faith using men and disregard their feelings --> This was Faith circa Season 3. Is this the same way she "regards" sex nowadays, based on comic storyline?

5)Faith seeks redemption because she needs it. Buffy doesn't --> I agree with the first half that FAITH sought redemption because she HAS TO. But to say that Buffy DOESN'T NEED REDEEMING now, is.....um,....I'm sorry, I don't agree with it. Why? Is "regression" has a POSITIVE CONNOTATION in english word, that would make Buffy's action unnecessary for "redemption"? I'm confused. ..Sorry, but I personally believe, that a person who admits mistakes and acts to rectify shows MATURITY than a person who acknowledges mistakes but keeps doing it again and again.


I'm not trying to raise arguments. I'm just posting my sentiments why I think this current storyline in comics which the writers want us to believe is "CANON", has "detrimental" effects on THE LEADS' characterization. I'm talking about Buffy and Angel characters, of course and their relationship, as well.

It's a good thing that there are still B/A fans who find optimism on this current storyline. But I guess, it's not wrong either to have "apprehensions" as well. Especially, if there BLATANT and OBVIOUS "warning" signs.

We try to understand Buffy's POV...But, I'm sorry, I have a different lifestyle and views in life compared to her, so maybe I couldn't relate with her fully as what other's here tried to do. Besides, I don't see "the Buffy" I admired from S1-S3 on her for quite sometime now, except on the S8 issue#20....And, me being more of an Angel fan, I inclined to know what Angel's POV, instead of Buffy's.

Let's see. I remember an interview of DB when he was asked about how he think Angel would feel on the B/S story during S6. If I remember it right, DB first answered, "he would laugh"...then he clarified that, "Angel would laugh probably because of fear.."

It's interesting he said "..of fear", meaning DB didn't ignore the possibility that Angel might have "fear" or let's say "worries" about B/S. And I could relate to that "fear", now.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
RomancexGirl
Warrior


Joined: 05 May 2013
Posts: 175
Location: Arizona, USA.

PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 7:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

bonnaleah wrote:

So I think "the book" and what gets written in in is a big plot point this season. After considering all that first, I think it's important that forced love has been specifically mentioned 4 times...unless of course they think the fandom is too dim witted to understand it the first time it was said. So my thinking is that since so much emphasis has been placed on the book... and so much emphasis has been made about how what gets written in the book effects the future of the world, that a lot of effort has gone into explaining the dangers of writing in the book, if that's not what is going to happen.


"Be careful what you wish for" seems to be a big plot-point this season, that much is obvious. I fully expect something to be written in there to make everything go to hell with the book set up like that. It screams Joss. But as I stated before, I don't believe any of Buffy's feelings for Spike would turn out purely as a side-effect of the book. I more so expect, if your theory holds any water, it compelling her to act on those feelings or considerations of Buffy being with Spike. The Buffy I know would never so easily do this, even if she's thought about it once or twice. So if it's not a side-effect of the book, then I think Buffy's going through a phase in her life where she feels "doomed to doomed relationships" and is just so tired of being lonely that she's ignoring her better judgment. Which is almost just as bad IM0, because that type of motivation isn't the type that keeps a relationship running forever.

bonnaleah wrote:

I know exactly what you mean. I feel I know Buffy well too.....and yet she has done things I thought she would never do. My Buffy wouldn't have ever been in a sexual relationship with soulless Spike....she wouldn't have stolen, she wouldn't have sat nonchalantly in a car and watched people getting slaughtered, She wouldn't have slept with Satsu, and she wouldn't have hit on her sister's boyfriend. I'm pretty sure if I were one of those people that only started watching the series in S6 or 7 that I wouldn't love the character the way I do and I guess if the writers veer her off too far from what I believe her to be I'll probably stop caring and say goodbye to her.


Same. I started BtVS in S4 and watching the direction Buffy's character went from there, especially S6 ... is not easy for me. S7 was more passable after the dark crapfest of S6, but Buffy still never entirely recovered from that. She "embraced" the disconnection through her identity as Slayer which led to her codependence with Spike and her one-track obsession with defeating the Big Bad by any means necessary even if they were extreme. Same with S8, only this time swap Spike with Xander. Buffy isn't fully developed yet because she identifies herself too much with being a Slayer and "doing the job". That's why she sucks at everything else life-related, even relationships. She gradually forgot what it is to be Buffy and only knows now how to be The Slayer.

But I get it. Buffy's still young and hasn't become the "cookies" she hopes to be. Despite all of her mistakes and errors in judgment, I just can't hate her for it. She's had a difficult life, having to overload herself with responsibilities and apocalypses while sacrificing her own personal life like she does. The loneliness of that must be unbearable. Not even the most straight and narrow person can come out of all that unscathed. I guess that's why I can still admire her so much. She's very heroic, but at the same time very human.

bonnaleah wrote:

Good question. My ponderings haven't answered the question of who would benefit from a Buffy/Spike hookup, or who would benefit by something added to the book, but here's an idea.... since Dawn's memory or lack of, is also a plot point this season, maybe it's as simple as Xander wanting Dawn to remember loving him. It wouldn't be the first time that Xander did something that backfired. The spell he used in Bewitched Bothered and Bewildered affected everyone except the person it was intended for.


But the question is how could that be worded in a way to affect Buffy and Spike? "Remembering the past" doesn't seem to work because Buffy's relationship with THIS current Spike is very different from her old one. I was wondering that if someone is targeting Xander to get closer to Buffy, then maybe manipulating him to make Buffy and Spike to take it to a next level might be a way of distracting her. Maybe having a new, shiny relationship feeding her loneliness after gaining information from Xander about the Scooby Gang is a way of weakening Buffy's focus until they make their move.

But again, this is just theorizing.

bonnaleah wrote:
In the other thread Sybil had posted that those who don't learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, and it's wierd because Buffy has in fact made that same point earlier this season when she and Spike had the conversation about their S6 relationship.....either insinuating or outright saying it was a mistake. Then telling Spike that remembering your mistakes is what keeps you from repeating them. Why has she now forgotten that?


... And starting this thing with Spike is repeating another doomed relationship, a mistake she should've learned from. God, that's weird. It's like Buffy's being pulled in two different directions. I can understand why you're skeptical because if Buffy said something like that recently ... then that makes this B/S storyline have even less sense.

bonnaleah wrote:
In that same issue Buffy was saying how Spike wasn't so bad soulless....but does she really think that or have her memories been altered. Xander has apparently forgotten that he hates vampires...Willow has apparently forgotten that Buffy will get all old and wrinkly and die while Spike will stay young and handsome forever....


I actually found Buffy's speech for Spike mostly in character. She's stated ever since mid-S6 she believed Spike genuinely loved her, as much as he COULD in a soulless way anyway. But I will admit Buffy saying that Spike "saved the world" or "always had a good in him" was too far even for her. Spike was only kept in check by the chip, not any goodness or compassion. Soulless Spike unhinged might still "love" her and not kill any of her close friends, but he'd certainly kill strangers if he could and then lie and probably try to hide it when he sought her attention. So Buffy's idea of "good soulless Spike" is not only untrue, but it makes her look naïve.

The funny part is I thought Buffy had already learned Soulless Spike had no good in him. The AR may have been a plot device more tailored to Spike's story, but it was also the moment Buffy opened her eyes and realized she never should've let his monster get as close to her as she did. Buffy ignoring this lesson for the sake of building up current Spike's self-esteem seems like regression after such a devastating scene such as the AR.

bonnaleah wrote:

You know, I don't have the hate for souled Spike that many on this board seem to have. As I have said before I see him as a totally different person than S6 Spike. I also don't think it's very realistic or fair to expect Buffy to live her life like a nun. Buffy and Angel both have a big heartbreaking problem in that they love each other so much and yet now have to very much believe that there isn't a chance in hell that they can ever be together. After all the years of waiting for their someday, their someday happened, but at a terrible price, and I have to think they both consider the Twilight thing as "their last chance." You only have to put yourself in their place to imagine the sense of hoplessness they feel about their chances of ever getting to live their life together. So then what are each of them to do? Angel doesn't have a lot of options but should Buffy really be expected to live a lonely, loveless, companionless life because she can't have the person she wants to be with? I don't think so.


I'm so with you. I don't share the Spike hate either and I think if Buffy should be with anyone, it should be someone who cares about her needs, is willing to sacrifice, and be devoted to her. Angel and Spike have always had this in spades for Buffy and love her just as much so that's why I could never judge the Spuffy post-Spike soulment even while being B/A. Buffy deserves loyalty and support after all she's been through so who I am to judge that just because I'm a B/A or more of an Angel than Spike fan? I'm a Buffy fan first and foremost, no matter which guy she choses. I just want her to be happy and that's the truth.

bonnaleah wrote:
All that being said, I won't suffer through another round of Spuffy if it turns into a love relationship. Even though I know in my heart it will always be Angel in the end, I'll probably say goodbye to the Buffyverse and only continue with the Angelverse.


I'd put up with it if it became a love relationship, but if threatens or overpowers Buffy's feelings for Angel then I'd have to take a Buffy hiatus for a while where I get space to deal with it. Afterwards, when I accept B/A is over and can read without being overly upset, then I'll come back. I don't believe in quitting a series just because of pairings, not if the execution is believable and honors the characters in question. I just hope that if Spuffy comes out on top, the writers do something to make it up to Angel. I'd even accept him moving on to someone else if that'll give him any form of peace. I think I'd feel too bad for Angel watching him still love Buffy the rest of the series when she's already moved on to his rival.

bonnaleah wrote:

Well no one knows Buffy, or writes Buffy the way Joss does, and even though he doesn't appear to be very involved this season, he was at the sumitt where the season was planned out...so I don't worry about the writers too much. Especially now that Gage has taken over. And I truly don't believe this season is all about pleasing the Spuffy fans....pacifying? maybe.


Your optimism is refreshing. I myself don't know what to think yet. I'm still waiting for more information and just trying to keep my options open. I'm saving the pessimism or optimism when I have more tangible proof of a reason for it.

elle2 wrote:

...It's only during the aftermath, that I realized that the sex between B/A wasn't felt RIGHT. It's GOOD to see...But that's NOT how I thought should have happened. Like I said on my old posts, it's NOT like IWRY where the "build up" or the "foreplay" to B/A sex was "properly" shown.


I agree with you. It never felt right to me to begin with, even with the B/A sex. What exactly is there to be happy about when Buffy and Angel were influenced into screwing to create a whole another universe bent on destroying the world and nearly ended the world LITERALLY? Or the fact that Angel got screwed over in the biggest way possible and Buffy views her own sex with Angel as her "self-betrayal"? It wasn't right or very romantic, not to mention the storyline plot itself and characterization was all over the place.

If I want a story for Bangel, it's one where they aren't creating some damn apocalypse on the world and isn't spawned by some outside force like Twilight. Love the B/A quotes in there all you want, but you need show as well as tell. Buffy and Angel being around each other again, learning from each other, dealing with their remaining skeletons in the closet between them before becoming a couple ... now THAT is a real story for B/A. One I'd read in a heartbeat.

elle2 wrote:

Buffy being horny and lonely --> Yes...this is a FACT that has been CONFIRMED in Season 6 and based on my previous posts before, the MAIN REASON why she was "sexually addicted" to blondie vamp on that season...instead of the "PRESS RELEASE" or LAME EXPLANATION that it was "SELF-HATE" that drove Buffy to do such act.
Now, fast forward Season 10. I have no contention that Buffy SHOULD NOT FEEL HORNY nor LONELY. No. I'm NOT in the POSITION to say SHE HAS NO RIGHT TO FEEL THAT WAY. But, my point is...MUST SEX BE THE ANSWER TO LONELINESS???? With ALL the experiences Buffy has had, as woman and as a grown-up person, is this the ONLY THING she has learned all her life. That "sleeping" with someone would take away loneliness? Is that the writers want to convey on Buffy's state of mind? Um..sorry, but I don't agree with it.


Buffy said herself in S5 she didn't want to define herself by a relationship and again in the series finale she claimed she wasn't ready for "serious" because she didn't think she was done growing up yet. Saying Buffy has always been desperate for love is wrong. In S6 she didn't even want love. She wanted to have something that distracted her from her directionless life and the mindless passion of sex with a guy she could walk all over and NOT encourage her to be something she didn't feel like she was anymore. THAT was the "appeal" for her. I think Joss's explanation of being an act of self-hate made perfect sense. Buffy was doing what she'd never do because she didn't WANT to be who she was. It's no different than Angel with Darla and Wesley with Lilah. It was a brief distraction from what really mattered and going against everything you believe in because you're on a self-destruct path. If you're going to criticize Buffy for this, then criticize Angel and Wesley too. It's just Joss's storytelling technique, regardless of whether or not you agree with it.

And while you may not like me saying this, Buffy sleeping with THIS Spike is more of a "healthy" outlet for loneliness. At least it's not dripping in self-hate and violence. It's just trying to fill a hole, like she did with Riley. I won't excuse Buffy's choices with sleeping Satsu because there is no excusing it nor will I say I'm okay with her reasoning for being with Spike. Loneliness is a poor motivation in making desperate actions no matter what it is and in the end it will always come back and bite you, something I'm sad to say Buffy hasn't learned yet.

elle2 wrote:

Buffy doesn't want a series of one night stands


Because she doesn't. She didn't pursue anything with Satsu because she's not gay or Angel in S8 because look what happened in the process. Buffy does want committed relationships. She just makes stupid choices with the wrong people and never thinks about the consequences until it's already too late. That's what her "loneliness" does to her. And it's unfavorable on her, I won't deny it, but given the way her life is I can partially put up with it. Though again, like Bonnaleah, I understand Buffy's side much more easier than you do. Maybe that's why I'm not as critical about her.

elle2 wrote:

It's interesting he said "..of fear", meaning DB didn't ignore the possibility that Angel might have "fear" or let's say "worries" about B/S.


That's not surprising. Angel's always felt threatened by Spike and their respective relationships with Buffy. All the times he put down Spike and downplayed the Spuffy relationship so aggressively was him trying to convince himself as well as Spike. Which, btw, is another reason the upcoming B/A crossover when he hears of the Spuffy isn't going to be easy on him. It'll just reopen all his insecurities and private fears.
_________________
"Crazy or not, that kind of love never dies."
- Klaus, TVD (Perfect Bangel quote)


Last edited by RomancexGirl on Sat Apr 04, 2015 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 274

PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2015 9:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

^i guess...our level of criticisms about the characters and the story DEPENDS on how we see "pictures", in small scale or bigger scale.

Some of us TRY to interpret the quotes of characters as if they were NOT in flaws and contradictory from previous quotes. VERY CANON indeed.

Some of us TRY to interpret the symbols and meanings and the "metaphors" from the show.

I'm onto the latter. Like I said on my previous posts, and I recall I've been consistent about it...there were moments about the show that I'm unconvinced and I find hard to accept. That's why I criticized it, coz I saw something is NOT RIGHT.

It's not just me being critical or self-righteous, it's about me giving feedback. It's quite clear to me: BTVS and Ats are TV SHOWS. Buffy and Angel are the LEAD CHARACTERS. B/A tale is the TALE that CONNECTS this two. Their LOVE STORY is THE EPIC LOVE STORY TO BE TOLD in generations.

If I didn't make such distinctions, I would be prone to ACCEPT Buffy's character and Angel's character as it WAS, without QUESTIONS, without DOUBTS. But, what would it make me?

I respect each one's opinions here, and I apologize if my rants gave any meaning otherwise.

As a reply, I won't resort to "quote by quote" response because obviously, we have a different "focal point" of distinction. And besides, the discussion is just the same ALL OVER AGAIN. The response have ALREADY been posted. The ISSUE has been ALREADY discussed with the same posters. It's up to the interested parties if they wanted to RE-READ and understand further what the others' REASON of such posts.

So...I'm gonna take a break in posting here for awhile....If I saw MORE BANGELS fans posting here again, then, I'd be happy and convinced beyond DOUBT that many of us STILL BELIEVE the writers would give us the TALE we've been promised since 1999, the time when Joss was quoted "TRUST THE TALE, NOT THE STORYTELLER".

For departing words, I would post here the same thing I posted on twitter:





This was shown on Season 3..one of early seasons of BTVS which I believe still shows "METAPHORS" and "BALANCE" storytelling. The era which Buffy was the YIN and Angel was the YANG. She's the LIGHT, as He's the DARK.

ALWAYS & 4ever! ...It's Buffy/Angel Mantra. The same one which B/S fans ridiculed us B/A fans as cheesy...and yet they WANTED the SAME "cheesyness" for their ship. (hypocrites!)

Anyway..the symbolism it has for me, the word "ALWAYS" was handwritten by Angel as "4ever" was written by Buffy. If freewill still remains for both characters, it's written by them that Angel will love Buffy ALWAYS as Buffy believes their love will last forever.

I guess, this is one thing that would make feel better in spite of "distractions" and "stupid storytelling" by "who-knows-what-kind-of-understanding-comic-storytellers".

thank you
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Blood Roses Community Forum Index -> B/A Discussion All times are GMT
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3 ... 9, 10, 11
Page 11 of 11

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group