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janas
Dark Avenger


Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Sat Nov 01, 2014 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elle, who is now the pessimist here? Smile

Speaking seriously though, I must say that I quite agree with you. View a preview of the last comic, I have no hope that the writers are able to treat AR in the right way and this is disconcerting, just I wish it would stop with this whole "Buffy as a feminist icon" because more they are trying to tackle argument and the more I feel that they are losing completely the real point of the story.

To Buffy is taken away also the possibility to feel angry about the AR, since many Spuffy fans think she has repeatedly used hurtful language towards Spike when they referred S6. It seems that these comics are written only to appease these fans, that continue to threaten the DH on Twitter and this is simply absurd.

PS: thanks for the message on twitter (I read it) and I'll answer here with a pm.
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elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 11:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Does anything in the comics even make sense anymore?


After seeing the preview of latest BTVS comics, yeah, nothing makes sense anymore !!!!
Except perhaps to a consolation feeling that B/S really fits the name of BullS*it!!!

I don't want to pass judgement to those girls or anyone who patronizes or encourage B/S; so I just extend my utmost sympathy to a fictional character, namely Buffy, who, in her teenage years showed how a young girl struggled to balance her life in between her family, friends, monstrous high school, forbidden lover and her obligations as the CHOSEN ONE. Her role as The Slayer is both a gift and curse at the same time. A GIFT because she's the ONLY ONE in her generation who possessed strength and power that any helpless girl could ever dream of. A CURSE because she DIDN'T ask for it. She didn't ask for cemeteries as her hang-out place during nighttime and most definitely, she didn't ask for vampires and demons to spend her time hanging around with. But she managed it all through. She survived H.S. Why? Because she has her Family and Friends...Much Bonus, was fighting along with the MAN she HAS LOVED UNCONDITIONALLY!!!!

Those people in her life gave her enough LOVE and AFFECTION to keep her mind sane in spite of the crazy world she lives in . And loving a MAN...a vampire, nonetheless, whom she didn't expect she'd fallen in love with. A man who was physically flawless and whose beauty was stunningly incomparable, but inside, he was also someone who has struggled the same thing as she did. He was CURSED. He didn't ask for it, yet a soul was cast upon him to punish him for eternity. Eventually, that very same curse would turn out as a GIFT, as he would be eventually chosen to redeem troubled souls. He's like a REHAB Guru. The PTB has fitly chosen because, who could better relate with those people who have demons inside, than HIM, who has been battling his OWN DEMON, for hundreds of year.

The slayer knew what he was before, but she had never faced the evilness of THAT demon until his curse started to kick in, at that special moment when a girl started let go her inhibitions for the very first time to give everything to the man who makes her life happy. A man she had no hesitations of saying "I Love You".

Then, a catastrophy happened. The demon got loose. Then, it turned out that the demon couldn't handle his "confused" feelings to slayer, so he decided to make a shortcut to END his confusion...Sending everyone to Hell. Then, the girl, even with hesitations, she fought him, until, the tragic twist of fate came in, that demon was brought back to his cage too late that the window of hell was already opened and the blood who opened it was also the only way to shut it down. Well, since, she didn't know how much blood was needed, she decided, his whole body must go through with it too. At the end, she told him she loves him. Then She KISSED him. Then, as she quote, she "KILLED" him.!!!

Then the world was safe and everyone lives as if nothing big happen. But no one knew, except her, how BIG she had to sacrifice so the world could go on living!!!

Then..well, after HUNDRED YEARS of Hell torment, he came back. She didn't took him back, right away. She fought hard to stay away from him and he also stayed away from her too. Then the First Evil confused everything! He was told TO KILL the slayer so HE COULD LIVE IN PEACE. But then, when it comes to HER safety, He'd rather die to see her suffer in his hands again. So, again, HE DECIDED to go suicidal, but this time, he didn't think of sending everyone to hell, anymore. Because, he has a soul again, and his mind is VERY LUCID, he thought, it was his responsibility to erase himself He thought, NO ONE wanted him, anyway, why bother to live???...then, the slayer came in to the rescue...admitting, She still Wants him. And they had, again, the MOST heartfelt conversation on convincing him to stay alive! He didn't want to listen to her because he thought ENDING his life was the RIGHT THING to do, until the PTB made snow rain which was VERY UNLIKELY to a place where there had never been snow before. That's when HE knew, that someone from above still wanted him alive! And the girl's fantasy of redeeming her lover came true, at Christmas time!

But, then the girl's fantasy was cut short because, in reality, vampires and humans can't live together normally. And she was a just girl who STILL HAS THE FULLEST OF LIFE to live for. And HER MOTHER, who was the closest person in her life, the one who solely raised her to be RESPONSIBLE at her young age, had slammed the REALITY CHECK to that vampire with a soul. The truth bit him that a certain point, HE HAS TO LET HER GO. WHY? because of this motherly advice:

Quote:
Joyce to Angel: You're all she sees of tomorrow, but I think we both know that there are some hard choices ahead. If SHE CAN'T make them, YOU'RE GONNA HAVE TO. I know you care about her. I just hope you care enough.


Then, after he joining her to their last battle, HE WENT AWAY. But he didn't say GOODBYE.

He got a job in LA. Gained a family with members who were individually capable of living alone. Got depressed because he after his life-and-death trial, he still failed to redeem the soul of the ONE who damned him. He slept with her soulless form, and AFTER ONE NIGHT of letting go his FRUSTRATIONS, he had a CERTAIN CLARITY on the difference of happiness and depression. And he sent her away. But then, the PTB decided that the reward of trial is a SON. You think the PTB likes him so much he would be given the SHANSHU reward??? NO..His life has not really run smooth. At the end, he came back to where he was...ALONE. A demon with a SOUL!!!

As to the girl, she moves on with her life. She gained a sister who wasn't their before. Had a human boyfriend, who had insecurities issues. Then, she lost her mother! Then at the brink of losing her sister, she made ANOTHER SACRIFICE...This time, her life! Then her friends couldn't live their lives without her, she was brought back. She didn't like it and pulled off a Michael Corleone's Godfather 3 quote "Just when I thought I was out... they pull me back in."

But then, instead of showing her disgust to her friends, she decided to PUNISH herself by making out with a demonic maniac who previously expressed his desire on her "to be beneath him"...Then, ALL the slayer's sacrifices, dreams and hopes by her family and loved ones, were overshadowed, by the the dream and desire of THIS MANIAC by showing her the darkside and how it felt good! Nourishing her darkest desires....here sexual desire to be dominated by a monster. To by enslaved by sexual passions. And she enjoyed the acts while she hated herself!!!

Gosh..I'd wish to continue, but I guess, everyone here already knows what happened to this girl! Besides, I'm afraid that I could not rephrase her supposed-to-be-romantic-story with that maniac with much gusto as I could with Buffy and Angel..I couldn't stomach it.

I guess, at the current rate of her story in BTVS comic (which I presume she still has the titular name as "BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER" and NOT "Spike as The Vampire of "The Slayer") ...her life is becoming NORMAL. Is that the kind of "normalcy" the writers would give her after she had done before? ...Are the writers dumb to think that Buffy's next sacrifice her "damning" herself, so someone as Spike could have his EPIC REDEMPTION??? SPIT to those writers!!!

I couldn't see anything SPECIAL to that girl anymore. Regardless if she would or wouldn't choose Angel in the end...And to Angel, is there something to look forward to his future?...I guess, the writers really didn't like him at all.

I think I get now, what JW wanted to happen. He didn't like Angel. He doubted that as handsome as him would become hero. Because he had this painful experience in H.S. that those handsome guys were the guys who would beat him up. JW sees himself as Spike. And JW sees "Buffy" as his road to redemption. Angel was just a sideline. A character that wasn't supposed to be big..because it's actually the fandom who "responded positively" to this "Boreanaz fellow", (as he JW quoted)

JW wanted B/A to depict the tragedy of Romeo & Juliet. But he NEVER like Romeo & Juliet as couple, in the first place. That's why, time and again, he COULD tell and admit to B/A fans that Buffy IS REALLY IN-LOVE with Angel, because it's really a FACT and the TRUTH that Buffy is in-love with Angel as Juliet is in-love with Romeo....Unfortunately, there's a certain character that Joss wanted Juliet to be with...Someone in between Hamlet and Iago. A protagonist and antagonist. Someone he could explore the complexities of a mad man with full of insecurities..and then redeem him by having a love of his life as an inspiration...Gosh...I think, Joss has some issues of his own. It shows on his works.

Quote:
Joss sacrifices characterization for the 'cool' moment constantly, and IMO it did nothing but hurt his show.


I guess you're right, jr24tw!

I have too much rant to say...but I don't want to bother anyone anymore.. I think, I'm done. I'm just full of heartaches now, that for years of holding on that Angel and Buffy would reunite and redeem each other, has now come to end.

yes, janas..I'm an outright pessimist now. I guess, people who encourage an act of sexual abuse and making a romantic gesture out of it, so a MAN can renovate himself as hero would never get how traumatic and disgusting it is for a girl or someone to be used as a mere pleasure to satisfy a sexual desire. And I'm not saying that Angel as Angelus, didn't do such act..No, I won't pretend to ignore it. And the B/S camp could say whatever bulls*it they wanted to say about "Angel's losing his soul and making Buffy's life miserable is comparable as to Spikes's attempted rape, but spike is a better vamp because he got his soul voluntarily for Buffy" crap!!!

Those rants are rant of people who seemed to forget that before spike realized he wanted a soul, HE WAS FORCED TO BE DOMESTICATED BY THE CHIP ON HIS HEAD. The chip was a comical metaphor on Angel's cursed SOUL. The next step for Angel's redemption is SHANSHU...means his HUMANITY !!! That's those B/S camp should compare...but I guess, it won't be because, as those stupid writers make of Angel...they didn't want him to deserve that REDEMPTION.

WHAT A CRAP...

I'm letting all my frustrations here...I'm sorry to the moderators. Really I am...But THIS IS THE LAST. I GUESS, I'M FINALLY SAYING GOODBYE TO THIS FANDOM.

I'll just enjoy myself continuing Buffy and Angel's story thru David Boreanaz and SMG's eyes. These actors' interpretation of the story couldn't be denied. They are the ONES who brought these characters alive. Not Joss' writing. WHY? It was a movie before, and everyone saw it was CRAP....Then the fans saw the chemistry between David and Sarah and they were hook...Shallow Reason to watch a series? Yes, but it IS A FACT. Their audience were mostly teenage girls , who doesn't give a crap on vampires..But those girls tuned it everyweek because as normal as it is for them to dream of true love, they were slowly inspired by the message and inspirations Buffy gives to them. And I'm of those teen girls before and now a grown-up woman who prefers to watch "The Buffy" who sacrifices her happiness and her life so SOMEONE MUCH MORE WORTHY could live than "The Buffy" who prefers to keep alive the ONE who represented everything SHE hated and sustained his desires to her so he COULD be the ONLY ONE who UNDERSTANDS and STAYS with her at the end...CRAP

Now I know, why Sarah felt "degraded" doing B/S scenes and I don't wonder anymore why David refused to be associated with this fandom. David was hated half of this fandom because he was Angel. He was still bashed by spike fans who were on JM's panel and JM seemed to like it...CRAP!!!


Ok..goodbye. Janas, thanks again. I think, as I depart myself to this fandom, I gained a B/A friend. I would only be back, if there's something WORTHY to be back. But, I would continue to be a fan of David and Sarah...They maybe just the actors compared to Joss' writing... Well, I guess, those actors know how Buffy and Angel deeply love each other and believe that their story is ETERNAL. It all boils down to , "ACTIONS SPEAKS LOUDER THAN WORDS"... or Joss words,...There's nothing believable anymore to that misogynistic man who clothes himself as feminist.

Bye, everyone!

Oh, wait..i forgot something! :

I wished Buffy staked Spike when he sang that whiny REST IN PEACE song during OMWF, because that's the most obvious thing to do, for his sake!!....but then, it would be horrible for JW because that musical episode was treated as one EPIC TV Moments of all time...But, honestly, take away the music and dancing...that episode was nothing but "WHINING" of every characters in it.STILL FULL OF CRAP!!!..the only lyrics that made sense to me was Giles' song because he was REALLY concerned about her...but then again, B/G camp had romanticize it, which created different "incestuous" issue...so yeah..I'll stop.

I guess we have OMWF to thank for bringing us a legacy of Glee Club (hey, Marti Noxon was there..thank God, it will end this year..) then, the horrible Fringe musical episode...which, is JJ Abrams reflection of jealousy to Whedon.
Ok..OMWF was good at the surface..but underneath..it was crap!!!

I don't want this long post to be full of crap..so, seriously, I'd go now..for good. Laughing
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sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Sun Nov 02, 2014 5:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

http://iwry-marathon.livejournal.com/


You have me bawling, both from sadness and understanding, and a terribly wild sense of happiness--you really do understand the "story" and I feel like I've been under the ocean, as poor Angel was, trapped for so long--people finding stories to kill something so beautiful, so true, and so holding to the actual WORDS and SHOWING every promise of them finding their way to each other.

Sorry, Dorothea. I can't help the all caps. I mean them.

I agree season 1 through 3 told the story, but gave us every reason they'd survive the pain to figure out 'what counts' and what 'do the right thing' even means. It also means that they had the love, faith, and simple brain power to trust each other, to learn not everything "written in stone" stayed true--even the Watcher's Council as a near eternal institution got things wrong with the "unseen" and the "failure" and "wild card" Rupert Giles.

We know they woulld "figure it out'--that's what Buffy would do. Never, ever question that curse--are you even kidding? Angel may have felt he deserved that misery, but Buffy sure as heck wouldn't allow him to suffer like that--she said so! And she also said he didn't have to do it alone.

I know most of you guys don't accept season 9 as I saw it--another rape of Buffy Anne Summers--the actual graphic experience of what it really feels like when it happens--the tearing away of self and split into "I'm okay" and "robotic" disassociation from what's actually happening. And that was Andrew, her "pet" doing her the "favor." Anybody else agree with Fury--Rape Rape Rape. Over and over?

"Growing up" as a psychological force upon your experience is ever being shown as rape. I'm fully sick of it and I'm really sick that B/A are both shown beat up, finding solace with each other, as if a crime, evil or just some juvenile escape to untested and wild hormonal swings of 'puppy love' or belief first love was nothing more than a wish fest and surge of fantasies and, worse, that the human need for the nurture of kindness, shelter, tenderness, requires punishment in literally being torn apart, sent to hell, and then to blow past it with another MOW or to forever after drag around in a coma of psychoses--too ill to use a straw, let alone, save anything.

There is a justifable rage I have with this stuff that was making me sick, and I had to stop--why? Because I do know I love and am loved and that alone would level the world of stupid this woman is continually asked to wanly smile through in ever mounting abuse.

Hit the road, Jack and Jack-asses all! Sorry, it's 'dumb-asses' all.


I just wanted to point out IWRY is going and give it a try. I told you I am doing a novel and I'm late, as sure as I am wading through the world of Joss, with zero improvement, because I have to accept all of this garbabe is what is cannon and keep on making the same garbage to eventually fulfill the promise--and I am sorry, but that means completely reversing the reality of 'Buffy as an avatar" and the reality of two slayer lines completely glossed over for wallowing in let's have a rape party, fa roach coach in flying saucers, "just kidding" for an abortion story--and she was right to weigh in in having one--there were HUMANS to have jailed, gods that were evil are all pals, while the single guide to some sort of balance iwithin a life and the importance a single life has in the big picture (Whistler) is turned into a GOD, while GOD is turned into the DOG of Manson's delusions, while throwing in mythologies, flipping them around so chaotically and treating Angel as EVIL INCARNATE, when the "Serpent" is actually "the way to know" and GROW THE HECK UP AS SELF.
(aka normal/ aka shanshue/aka "perfect happiness!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

But we needed to have Buffy saying F*CK paradise, yet remain a god until she BETRAYS herself. Uh....Because she still loves ANGEL????

Season 10 actually is better and also worse. I don't care. I look at the care * comic * shares in bringing us pictures of people I found deeply moving and turned into "creeps"--I like Xander in season 8 with Dawn, but that all keeps Buffy an eternal avator of the female principle "warrior guide" everyone has within, to engage the unknown or dealing with issues that just don't stay dead until you "deal"; and that includes Death. (aka Angel?) Which is Buffy's gift. GET IT?

And that, my dears, is how exactly I am gonna do it, but also have to kill my own sense of how the story REALLLLLLY should have turned out because I am too stupid to figure out any other way with regard to the Fray ville. Sorry. Horibly, deeply sorry.

I will post the novel here. If in time or worth anyone's effort, the whole thing can be 'stolen' and again, put elsewhere, e.g. IWRY, or B/A accepting places, if anyone thinks I should.

P.S. I have zero Spike, except one line and you'll know it and he is not the one to say it.

THANK YOU, my dearings who are alive and sane and actually very, very wise and kind. Thanks for so much generoisity--even in all the exasperated rants--I truly have felt give me hope in at least some thing like the "happy" --jeeze once in awhile--that comes after the "ever." Despite Joss.

HUGS!
sybil
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bonnaleah
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Jun 2010
Posts: 323

PostPosted: Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elle, I've been trying to finish this post for days....sorry it took me so long.


Quote:
Assuming that Joss' intentions ONLY is to show the cause & effect of "addiction" and it's up to the audience to choose for a solution, then tell me, what the heck did they want the audience to think about S7 when Buffy still continue to have a certain "affection" to an ensouled spike? What have she learned on her "self-punishment" actions on S6?


I don't think what Buffy felt for Spike in S7 was affection, but an enormous sense of responsibility. She knew that she was the reason Spike now had a soul, because he told her so. Contrary to the belief the Spuffy's hold that Spike sought out a soul for altruistic reasons, it was spelled out clearly that he had done it for Buffy....so that she would love him. And now here he was batsh*t crazy and it was because of her.... .I think because of that, that Buffy felt Spike was now her responsibility and that she was obligated to take care of him. That's how I saw it anyway. And too, Spike was now a souled being....and she knew what a difference that made because of Angel/Angelus.
The separation between souled Spike and unsouled Spike was also addressed in the last comic when Spike apologizes for the attempted rape. Buffy tells Spike that she can't hold what he did against him amymore than she could blame Angel for the things Angelus did. Because he's a totally different person now.

Quote:
It's the writers fault! They REALLY made Buffy a fallen heroine.

Amen! Having sex with a souless demon is something 'Real Buffy" wouldn't have done in a million years, no matter how depressed she was. I still believe that storyline came solely from Marti Noxon's twisted brain while Joss was busy playing with his new Firefly toy.....but shame on him for letting it happen. Buffy's story spiralled out of control under Marti's direction and I've always felt the whole reason for Spike showing up with a shiney knew soul in S7 instead of Spike without the chip was that Joss was trying to minimize the mistake of Buffy having sex with an evil demon. I don't believe for a minute that the plan for S6 involved Spike seeking out a soul.....the episode...the shooting script....it all screams that Spike went to have his chip removed...Joss can say all he wants that he was trying to trick the viewing audience but I just don't buy it. I think while planning out S7 he realized that Spike losing the chip would make Buffy's S6 actions look even worse than they already did.....and so tried to salvage what he could by making her the inspiration for a demon to want a soul. Marti put him in a lose/lose situation and we're left with lame ass explanations like, "Spike was always kinda good even when he was bad", and Spike retained part of his soul after becoming a vampire.

Quote:
That's humility...As to Buffy, well, what she did is self-humiliation. And what's worse, the writers want us to think that Buffy rectified those mistakes by keeping Spike alive until he made that "ultimate sacrifice" of saving the world, which would not happen if Angel didn't give the amulet. If Angel didn't come, all of them would die and the B/S camps would rejoice because B/S would be an epic love story because Buffy and Spike died together in saving the world. And of course, before she died, she would tell him she loves him...then B/S transcends everything after all!!! Oh sucks! I guess, there's still something I have to thank the writers for not letting that became canon!!!


We can thank Joss. He wrote and directed "Chosen". He wrote for Angel to bring the amulet...for Buffy to fall into Angel's arms for her only kiss in S7....and for Buffy to still think about a future with Angel. Joss wrote for Spike to say, "no you don't, but thanks for saying it"...and then he wrote for Spike to burn to a crisp...He was still cleaning up Marti's mess and I shudder to think what we'd have ended up with if Marti had written "Chosen" instead of Joss.

Quote:
I'd rather like the writers to make Buffy say, that she was not in the proper state of mind, or she had problems on adjusting her consciousness from death to being alive again, or she was possessed by an evil being, rather than making her admit, once again, that she KNEW it was a mistake. Self-awareness of your mistake IS never an act of innocence; therefore, only made Buffy accountable on what happened to her.


I do think the writers were trying to show that Buffy wasn't in a proper state of mind and that she was having trouble adjusting....she certainly wasn't helped by Spike taunting her that she had come back wrong......She believed that for a while, and didn't even care if she lived or died. I think the self awareness of her mistake was only clear to her after Riley came back....before that she was so majorly depressed that she didn't care about anything. I don't have any experience with major depression but I think even a bad case of feeling the blues can temporarily bring on those same types of feelings. So I think even though Buffy knew at the time that sleeping with Spike was wrong, she was too messed up mentally to have a true awareness of the mistake she was making. And I do think the series tried to show that. Not that they did a good job at it, but that's what they were aiming at.

Quote:
To Buffy is taken away also the possibility to feel angry about the AR, since many Spuffy fans think she has repeatedly used hurtful language towards Spike when they referred S6.


Spuffy's want it both ways. They want the AR brushed aside because Spike has a soul now...but they also want the Spike who was responsible for the AR to be the Spike of the "mature love story" they imagine happened in S7. It just doesn't work that way. In the same way that Angel isn't the Angelus that snapped Jenny's neck, the Spike who showed up in the school basement in S7 wasn't the Spike who tried to force himself on Buffy. Spuffy's don't understand that the S6 Spike deserves all the language used against him and that he is a different person now that he has a soul......in the same way that Angel is a different person from Angelus. Buffy isn't going to hold "current Spike" accountable for things S6 Spike did.....and I don't have a problem with that as they aren't the same person.

Quote:
After seeing the preview of latest BTVS comics, yeah, nothing makes sense anymore !!!!

Yeah, I'm curious to see the rest of that conversation. Spike of course is quite right when he says that "No, he didn't really love her without a soul"....S6 souless Spike was all about Spike's self love and wanting what he wanted regardless of how it was hurting Buffy.....real love is what Angel expressed by walking away so she could have a chance for a normal life.....and then giving up his humanity so she would continue to live period. So I think Spike is spot on in admitting that what he felt in S6 wasn't love. But I can't fathom Buffy thinking that Spike wasn't really so bad after all.....all of a sudden she's the one talking like a souless person.....what's up with that? Reminds me of Spike trying to make Dawn feel better by telling her that he was evil and he wasn't so bad.
It will be interesting to see where they are headed with all of this. Are they going to cement in the mythology busting idea of Spike retaining a part of his soul, as one of the writers said happened in a dvd commentary, [I can't remember which writer or which episode]....or is Spike going to become a victim of the soul sucking demon? And if he loses the soul would he still be "fluffy vampire Spike" doing anything and everything in the hopes of winning Buffy's heart? Or would he revert back to his evil ways now that he believes he has no chance with her? Wonder if they have the guts to do a story like that?
Quote:
I think, I'm done. I'm just full of heartaches now, that for years of holding on that Angel and Buffy would reunite and redeem each other, has now come to end.


Are you reading the comics? Because there is nothing in them saying that Buffy and Angel have come to an end. Joss just reminded the entire fandom in S8 that these two love each other more than anyone else. I think it's a mistake for B/A fans to lose site of the wonderful gift we were given in S8 just because of the ending. Buffy and Angel will always have obstacles thrown in their path as long as Angel has his own title. But that doesn't mean we'll never have the proper ending to this epic love story.

Quote:
I'm letting all my frustrations here...I'm sorry to the moderators. Really I am...But THIS IS THE LAST. I GUESS, I'M FINALLY SAYING GOODBYE TO THIS FANDOM.


Aww don't go. I think we all share your frustrations but the fat lady hasn't even started to sing yet. It's easy to become discouraged when the only voices you hear are the Spuffy's proclaiming that all the signs point to Spuffy. But they've been saying that every season and it hasn't happened yet. Plenty of time to throw in the towel if that ever comes to pass. I don't think the B/A fandom is the only part of fandom that isn't up for another round of Spuffy. Sales are already steadily declining and a return to Spuffy could be the final straw for more people than us B/A fans.
Don't you at least want to hang around long enough to see the Buffy/Angel reunion this season? The coming story may yet surprise you.

Oh, and I very much enjoyed your rant. Very Happy
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elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Sybil & bonnaleah! ..The moment I read your posts weeks ago, I had thought of coming back just to say "thank you"...But I was hesitant to post again because I made A promise of not coming back. And my stubbornness got a hold on me Laughing

Anyway, forgive me if a "grateful thanks" wasn't worthy enough for me to post again. I really do apologize! Sad

I'm still active in B/A fandom, though. But I don't consider the present storyline in comics as canon. I only stick on TV series. I'm also a little bit active in twitter and found some new B/A friends to discuss somethings about B/A. Recently, we had random discussions and I thought I tagged @martinoxon and @janeespenson. I didn't really expect them to reply. I just thought that if they read our discussion, they would be reminded that not all audience of BTVS enjoyed the B/S crap..

My tweet:
Quote:
Stupid!! @martinoxon & @JaneEspenson pushed B/S in our throat to symbolize how a woman shld move on..A primitive move!!



then, a few minutes earlier, I just received this from Marti Noxon

Quote:
I humbly suggest that it was a phase that many young women go through. And then they learn.

https://twitter.com/martinoxon/status/532187655916638208

I don't expect her to reply with my "grateful" response. I just wish I was articulated enough to make her feel that while I love her other works, I have this lifetime bitterness on the B/S crap during S6. Smile

I thought Marti Noxon's reply was worthy enough to share here!!!
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Dark Star
The Powers That Be
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Joined: 10 Aug 2003
Posts: 1700
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PostPosted: Tue Nov 11, 2014 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elle2 said:

Quote:
I made A promise of not coming back. And my stubbornness got a hold on me


It happens in discussions and when emotions run high. We won’t hold it against you!

Quote:
I'm still active in B/A fandom, though. But I don't consider the present storyline in comics as canon. I only stick on TV series.


Amen to that. I don’t consider any part of the comics canon, which is why I normally let Kairos take part in the discussions here.

I would like to remind everyone that we do have other parts of the forum, where you can safely ignore the comics if you wish, and who knows? Perhaps it will encourage all the other anti-comic members back into our midst…
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sybil
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A heaping happy HELLO! too!

If I recall Marti Noxon's initial "inspiration" for sex with a soulless demon, it was because she was the one who forced herself on some guy. And she actually thought the jossian * reversal * of Buffy as "Male" aspect and Spike as "female" aspect --"the girl" therefore, beating him to a pulp, would be funny. Even feminist. Trouble was Spike was "under" Buffy, as she beat him, but was also clearly shown in the supposed "female position"
while she was being raped. And I don't say attempted.

She had already clearly, very clearly turned her head, completely having "experienced" the helpless separation of herself into grief, knowing her body was *ALREADY * VIOLATED and had been assaulted to be on her back and in a room that is clearly understood to be used in privacy.

The miracle of throwing him off is anatomically difficult for a female, and has nothing to do with "ripply muscles" not to mention she had surrendered to sobs, and slayer strength/indignation to say "lack of penetration" makes all the rest some sad misunderstanding of sex games, when NO! NO! and sobbing clearly indicate she isn't kidding and he is upon her for one reason and one reason only, takes all that "attempted" out of the picture for me. The entire series is fraught with "mind rape" to our very experience, which includes the physical reality of the body that makes "mind" material and possible.

"Flipping things around" as is done on the psychological plane or in myth or in fairy tale "works" as gender neutral--why a boy understands "how it feels" to be Cinderella within his own family experience, for example.

But trying to make clinical suicidal depression some sadomasochistic game of domination/submission the fun way of talking about self hate is sick. And why Buffy is self hating because she thought she was "done" and "accomplished" to find the world "hell" is HER failure? She wasn't around for it to have GONE TO HELL. Hello, next slayer? FAITH????


Buffy recognizing Faith didn't "step up" should of made her argue if taking on the burden was "just" or simply "the right thing to do" that Angel had to confront, as well. They have to mirror each other, yet remain "opposite."

If Buffy and Spike are both rolling in 'evil' and sweeping it under the rug...how is that a mirror to the self that the vampires are to Buffy? Where's the "opposition?" And Angel's burden in IWRY to return to be an ensouled vampire is correct, but DOES NOT COMPUTE for Spike never was an "ENSOULED" vampire to "be what I once was." I call real B. S.

The UPN years were the most heaping helping load of stinking carp going nowhere ever until the finale and even Angel was turned into a sniveling child--what saved it for me was the use of the "gate" and mission, plus mission-mission until we actually get the finale in which Angel DOES NOT TURN HIS BACK, as he leaves her.

BTW, IMO, the disservice to "Spike" as a character, "evil truth teller" was kicked to the curb. "Hell of a woman" with a woman putting herself in hell doesn't "humbly" work for Buffy who "lived the real deal" when she killed Angel and actually went to a hell to save Chanterelle's boyfriend and many others. Even if social mores and propaganda make "many girls" feel "less than fresh" and "victimized." Maybe because they actually ARE VICTIMIZED by real live rape and zero regard for their humanity--even the completely "devoid of humanity Angelus "did not rape Buffy. Quite the opposite. He shamed her for her now awakened body, denying her sex.

And since SEX is evil in this world, it "put the egg" on Buffy's face in all the cruelty of "blame the victim" ironically twisted, with out a touch. Not to mention, she kicked his "magic eggs" and buckled his body, making LOVE shared with Angel "not a game" nor "merely" sexual union, but true union of opposites.

HOw does any of this square with "some humanity" magically retained in Dru and Spike and statements that they had any single CLUE what love is?

I sprained my eyeballs rolling them again. Sorry.

HUGS!
sybil
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janas
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 12, 2014 11:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:

The UPN years were the most heaping helping load of stinking carp going nowhere ever until the finale and even Angel was turned into a sniveling child--what saved it for me was the use of the "gate" and mission, plus mission-mission until we actually get the finale in which Angel DOES NOT TURN HIS BACK, as he leaves her.


I'm glad you said that, because I always saw the scene in Chosen as a reflection, like a mirror, from the first time that Angel leaves Buffy in Graduation Day. In Chosen Angel didn't turn his back, and Buffy admits that sometimes she thinks about a future and that future is with Angel.

Sometimes is something.

edit:

Oh, and all that talk about the future is a reflection of what Buffy said in Bad Eggs.

ANGEL: So you don't think about the future?
BUFFY: No.
ANGEL: Never?
BUFFY: No.

They are grown, they lived other experiences, they are changed, but what remains unchanging is their love. You still my girl? Always.

Angel, when I look into the future, a-a... all I see is you! All I want is you.
I know the feeling.

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elle2
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 6:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In Chosen Angel didn't turn his back..


janas, I had never noticed it before! How could I miss such symbolic gesture? Shocked Angel walked away as he was facing her until he was covered by darkness. I'm not sure if it was intentional, but I like what it could stand for. It was a simple gesture of telling her that "yeah, I'm going away because you told me so..but I want you to see that I'm not gonna turn my back on you"...It was clearly the opposite in Gd pt2 when He was the ONE who decided to leave, but before he left, he let her see him and then he walked away...I don't think the way he "turned back" connotes the usual meaning of abandonment..He didn't leave Buffy "just" like a normal ex-BF would turn his back...He sees her first. He's got watery eyes..then, he turned his back to walk away...That's not abandonment nor a "total-I-leave-you-alone" gesture...He's such a coward to say "goodbye" to her, because deep inside, he really didn't want to bid farewell. The "parting ways" of B/A with all the smoke around, is parallel with the way Magicians vanished themselves using smokes. It's a fancy way of saying, "you may not see me now, but any moment I could appear in front of your eyes"...yeah, basically the same how Angel has managed to be in Buffy's life in TV series. (except S6 which the only reason that made sense why Angel wasn't able to be in her life, was because of the breaking of the fourth wall! Because if Buffyverse was REALITY, Angel SHOULD HAVE BEEN THERE WITH HER and HE WOULD BE THE ONE TO HELP HER GET THROUGH HER DARKTIMES!!!)

Quote:
If I recall Marti Noxon's initial "inspiration" for sex with a soulless demon, it was because she was the one who forced herself on some guy.


sybil, how true is this? I don't know how to feel for Marti if it is so. I don't want to judge her because I don't know her circumstances...But if Buffy's state of mind mirrored Marti's situation then, I have to say, she could have avoided all of those abusive stuffs if ONLY she chose to avoid it. I know depression is a BIG deal...I experience it too...we try hard to live in a denial that we are still in control of things we like to do, when in reality, our excessive fascination towards a particular thing already controls our lives. I have experienced to be obsessed and addicted to some things. I'm not a mental expert and I don't intend to present myself such, but I know that engaging a series of sexual act to a "known maniac" and becoming a sex addict yourself, is different than engaging yourself to excessive "playing video games", "shopping", "reading books", "cleaning your house", "gossiping with your neighbors", or at some extent, "smoking cigarettes and pots" ...because these kind of addiction, it only involves ONE Self. You don't need to USE other people and share your addiction.!!!

Now, let's go back again on Buffy's self-punishment act on S6. Buffy from previous seasons was already "mature" mentally. If she wasn't she wouldn't be the BUFFY we love. She had series of unfortunate events that tested her emotional strength and mental toughness before Season6...She lost Angel! Yet she managed to move on and make a relationship with a normal guy. She lost the normal guy and probably regret something because she might have lost the ONLY guy who could bring her "normalcy". And yet she managed to live through. She learned her sister wasn't really a NORMAL sister and yet she managed to love her dearly. She lost her mother, that devastated her...and yet she still chose to live another day, until she made a decision to sacrifice her life because she couldn't bare to witness another death of a LOVED ONE, even if Dawn's existence is just an IMPLANTED MEMORY....Buffy LOVES her and seeing Angel's and her mother's death were already traumatizing enough that Dawn's banishment would be TOO MUCH for her to bear. That's why Buffy's so-called "suicide" on The Gift made it more NOBLE & HEROIC than any heroic acts of any superheroes of DC & Marvel combined!

Then S6 came...she felt low, understandable! She lost her father figure; yeah it caused her deep pain...But, she still have her friends...but then, wait, she HATED them, but she didn't REALLY want to hate them. She just hated what they DID of bringing her back without her consent (which probably the fact that they couldn't ask her for consent while she was dead, added to her frustrations that bringing her back was THE ONLY WAY to resolve their needs), and so she DIDN'T trust them anymore so she just SHUT DOWN her emotions to them...But, she still have her sister, whom she sacrificed her life, but, wait..Dawn acted strange and become whiny without really having a big reason to whine...so Buffy was left the feeling that she DIDN'T HAVE SOMEONE to trust her emotions of sadness....SHE DIDN'T TRUST HER OWN FAMILY, but thankfully, there's "someone" left who DESIRES her...who said HE LOVES HER...and since, she lost the feeling of pleasure of heaven, she thought, hey "I WANT TO FEEL SOMETHING GOOD, I GONNA F*CK THIS GUY WHO WANTS ME"..."AND BESIDES, DEMONS IN SUNNYDALE BECOMES BORING AND WEAK SO MY NIGHTLY PATROLS DIDN'T GIVE ME A GOOD CHALLENGE SO I JUST SPARRED WITH THIS MANIAC AS OUR FOREPLAY OF A FEEL-GOOD SEX"....but tells the maniac, "BUT SO WE'RE CLEAR, I DON'T LOVE YOU. I JUST LIKE YOU AS MY HUMAN VIBRATOR. I'M SO POOR, I CAN'T AFFORD TO BUY SEX TOYS...AND SINCE YOU'RE WILLING TO BE USED, THEN FINE, WE GIVE EACH OTHER HAPPY FEELINGS"......Is these the kind of humble suggestion from Marti Noxon that she thought a phase that most young woman go through and learn something from?.... I'm afraid I have to bring back my rant of CRAP! CRAP! CRAP Razz

Sorry for extreme vulgarity....S6 storyline Is SO vulgar, that it was't even made of metaphors...It's a direct and an explicit displays of a person's "hidden desires"...the only episode of S6 that was told figuratively was OMWF, because, Joss needed "to bring back the good feelings of the series by covering the garbage storyline with good music and dancing choreography"....very cheap strategy to fool the audience, but hey, what can I say, it worked. And most fans hailed that episode as TOP 1 BTVS episode of all time!!! It cringes me to think, what kind of audience did BTVS attract these years???

Quote:
If Buffy and Spike are both rolling in 'evil' and sweeping it under the rug...how is that a mirror to the self that the vampires are to Buffy? Where's the "opposition?" And Angel's burden in IWRY to return to be an ensouled vampire is correct, but DOES NOT COMPUTE for Spike never was an "ENSOULED" vampire to "be what I once was." I call real B. S.


thnx, sybil, for bringing this up...I admit, even I didn't see it before...B/S fans unashamedly slams Angel that he was arrogant not tell Buffy of his decision to be bring back time. Which is a total bullshi*...They had so little time, how could Angel know that turning back time was the ONLY SOLUTION?....IWRY is such a perfect episode that B/S fans want to ruin it just to throw garbage to Angel and his relationship with Buffy...B/S fans couldn't deal with the very main fact, that while IWRY didn't need humongous special effects and ridiculous music & lyrics, and the ONLY musical background NEEDED for that episode was the B/A theme by Chris Beck "Close Your Eyes"...IWRY PROVIDES MORE FEELINGS than OMWF....WAY WAY WAY..and SO SO SO GOOD FEELINGS THAN ANYTHING BUFFY FELT DURING B/S sex scenes!!!

And, as sybil, pointed out, Angel deciding to become an "ensouled vampire" against becoming human doesn't count to B/S camp but Spike's selfish soul searching is? ....MAJOR CRAP???? Angel's decision is SO MUCH HEROIC and SELFLESS and obviously beneficial to Buffy...Even she said it to Angel, "she understand" ...the only thing that broke her down to tears is that they did not have MUCH TIME!!!!...Of course we know, how Buffy would spend time with Angel if they still have one more time left Laughing ...She's just horny, we know it..But better she shares her horny-ness with someone she TRULY loves, whom is ANGEL, than spend it with anunattractive guy, that has overprocessed bleached hair...I SPIT TO THAT HAIR SO IT COULD BE SOFT!!!

If Angel was there in Sunnydale, (in Alternate Storyline) while Buffy is in depressed mode, I bet they could shag all time without risking his soul, because we all know, it wouldn't perfect happiness..But still, Angel could have helped her not to sink that LOW..if only the writers found a way of better storytelling...and of course, the NETWORK SPLIT....

...that's why, upto this day, I refuse to believe that S6 was a believable storyline for a great heroine such as Buffy...I always believe that the writers were forced to create a storyline that would fit to the kind of available of materials they had...Unfortunately, Angel was not an available material...
..that's my theory...or else...Marti Noxon & Jane Espenson had this disgusting desire to see JM/SMG slipping and sliding thru the sheets.....CRAP!

I have to go...I have to erase B/S visuals by watching IWRY again and enjoying SMG's unabashed claims of wanting Angel and still having hots for David Boreanaz...

Bye.. Mr. Green
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sybil
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 13, 2014 4:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You are so forthright and specific, it’s really refreshing and your take on things is very “real world” IMO in the sense of “self-explanation.”

I actually blame Joss for the brilliance of “needing to feel” and using sex specifically for SELF HATE. It all started, IMO, with the critically acclaimed “GENIUS!!!” of “Conversations with Dead People.” Yes. The use of evil as some “truth teller” is in place and is the convention established for Spike vs Angelus who also tells the truth, with a twist—he makes everything the other person’s “lacking”. However, the crux of Buffy’s new found self hate began with SUPERIOR/INFERIOR and that is all on Joss.

Second. Riley. Yes, he was cooked up to be the “perfect HUMAN guy” for our grown up girl of season 5. I do say she was grown up. She NAMED her loves, her mother, Angel, her family to show she had “INTERNALIZED” the lessons she had to in order for her to “transition” to adulthood, according to the “dramatic platform” of the piece, which is death. THAT means she “became” an adult.

The “shadow” aspect that holds truth in the completion of a great work, which, BTVS largely is, there is a kind of relief in her own self acceptance that means her own death.
Her slayer burden/duty will also end within the greatest love/sacrifice she has to give her life. Her lessons were to live, forgive, love. She did so.

As for Riley. Yes. The finale of season 5 was supposed to be the last. They were going to make him Angel “transfigured” as it were. The beautiful, feminist, strong male, friend and lover, all rolled into one. He was made “perfect” and that made him boring/cardboard. Joss is horrid with both good and good looking—as literature/horror genre require flaw and insecurity for dramatic existence in (commercial) notice.

I learned that blonde is good, dark is shadow and brown is “the gray blend” an actual human being is.

The vampires were only “mirrors” to Buffy’s own reflections. But Spike was placed “beneath her” to literally later “devour her.” Further, they began the march IMO to making Buffy the internal avatar and the “becoming” “normal” promise of the piece when season 7 also had only boogity humans, while she chased off the other humans. Recall in season 3 Graduation, the humans were allowed to participate in fighting for their own town, their own institutions, their own “right to know” and “choose.” Not so season 7.

However, simply, Buffy had “humans” in season 7 with her, while Angel’s finale was all “monsters” who may not be doing the right thing, but kept struggling. Or something. I pretty uniformly have problems with ATS because Joss believes he is actually good at juggling three projects at once and he most uniformly and absolutely is not.

Consumed and consuming are mythic constructs. Mental “zen” and physical/sexual “tantra” are means/disciplines to unite these opposites “quickly”—but not in the way of cycle e.g. the Ourobos consuming it’s own tail.
So! The comic books actually show “perfect happiness” was again achieved in season 8. Which is correct. They literally made a physical and emotional paradise of their love—the fact that “twilight” was also a god, who needed them to join in order to give himself physical reality in this dimension (how to birth the pre-existing self WHICH IS NOT STRANGE. You are “reborn” with every insight that you feel is tranformative).

So…the FACT is the curse is not undone with “evil sex” or “soul installation” by sex (Spike) so, IMO, perfect happiness remains not only achievable but is the actual PROBLEM. A curse’s undoing is within it. Also, FYI, white magic is the external exploration (shown as male and Angel’s ‘story’ when the actual journey is ALL psychological—the famous Jossian flip. It is how he has a son (brown hair—the real boy). It is how he had “sex” with Cordelia that NEVER HAPPENED. It is how it is completely OEDIPAL in its rendering and Angelus, used as evil truth teller EVEN SAYS SO.

Buffy’s journey is BLACK MAGIC shown in external events. Her ‘AVATARS’ are a brother figure Xander, her “witch” deux ex machine” Willow, her initiating trauma of father and guide made into ‘warlock Giles.’ Etc. However, Xander NEVER was boogity, because he is JOSS. NOT Buffy, whatever he tells himself, because Buffy is his own avatar/slayer/active female principle and guide within himself. So!

Right now, the comics flat out have Spike say he never loved Buffy. He couldn’t. He didn’t have a soul. HE IS NOW TWO PEOPLE. Like Angel/Angelus.

This is for Angel to “distance” himself from “Twilight” as “completely” possessing him. Which, IMO, fails because Buffy also could fly as a goddess, as much as Angel was a god—which is what happens when “union of opposites” happens—all illusions of the world are seen for what they are, etc. YOU ARE and YOU ARE NOT—paradox complete. (something like that “world falls away” when you both are perceiving the lover and feel the FULL SELF, yet you are not “there” and ARE the other, as truly seen/embraced? )

Some still argue, and that is fine—I do know why but won’t say—you actually were told in Darla’s death—that Liam is the host to Angelus who is the animus, the jerk, the lust of the body, shadow and id—while Angel is the soul/superego, the affirmation of mind, control, imagination, joy and pleasure of the spiritual-physical, etc. Essentially, LIAM loses connections between id, ego, superego and they become “persona” of Angel and Angelus, having full memory of the other parts of himself. Aka delusion. NOT true schizophrenia, which is different. Or even multiple personality disorder.

Connection is a big dealio with Joss, as it is how to recognize OTHER, and to INTEGRATE self. Joss is atheist so there you are.

Bottom line? They have made Buffy a psychological avatar, which is why the comics fail me worse, plus they will never deal with the reality of the curse, which “Spike’s congress” was supposed to indicate “snaps her out of it” aka her depression. AND the problem with needing to feel when suicidally depressed is that the pain is so great you BEG for NUMBNESS. You have to have a little moment of “feeling good” some kind of relief that your suffering could end, to get the actual strength to off yourself. Not yippee me and I will soldier on with gritted jaw and iron will, cold heart but functioning better than anyone else on the planet and all the emotional horror and grief handed off to Spike’s self mutilaiation and suffering—literally hanging off a cross (means crossroads, as well).

I’m not smart. I just like a little road to follow with a beginning, middle and end. These people get lost in the hedgerows with their own wow and cool factors, that they have made our heroine “stock paper.” Suffering any and all insult without comment or willy nilly creating alliances for some plot I can’t understand for the life of me I should care—cockroaches survive everything in homage to the rats of Douglas Adam’s and now Angel gets rats as “evil”—while Amy, an avatar of Buffy’s own “Ratness” is now evil witch incarnate and I will NEVER understand how a girl who was saved from an evil mother suddenly is drug dealer and mule, evil enough to twist a mustache—Amy is just all wrong. Period. Dark is NOT evil. Evil is ‘absence’ aka white in this verse.

Never mind. I just thought the update on Spike, to make it “okay” for Buffy to love Spike is supposed to be now settled.

Yeah. Buffy deserved to be raped. She’s all okay with it because she was flawed.

SPIKE the truthteller (evil, remember) season 7 YOU HATED YOURSELF AND TOOK IT OUT ON ME.

WHY does Buffy HATE HERSELF???? Joss did it with SUPERIOR/INFERIOR and the “shock” of self realization was NOT herself, but her evil truthteller TELLING HER TO EXPLAIN SHOWING HER in a PHYSICAL AND MENTAL SEXUAL ASSAULT/RAPE??

In season 5, she learned and internalized and acknowledged her mistakes, but her LOVE AND SELF ACCEPTANCE AND GRATITUDE.

REAL Buffy, always doing the stupid thing (sarcasm).


p.s. BDSM The "weaker" controls, the sexual excitement is for the other to fulfill the reason for "surrender." The need for abuse and getting it, is a. a crime b. sexually misplaced in the wrong party. An agressive woman forcing herself on a guy to stimulate his interest in her must know in advance that the guy clearly understands her domination will submit BECAUSE he responds. This dynamic back and forth is a sex game. but to aggress on any human in any situation, who wants no part of you even in locking eyes and raising a finger, is ASSSAULT by law in US. A single touch is BATTERY.
umkay?

HUGS!
sybil
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jr24tw
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Elle, sybil is in fact correct that Marti Noxon used her life story in S6 in the B/S storyline, including the attempted rape. That woman has some serious male/female sexuality issues. To such an extend that I'm of the firm believe she would have done the TV world a giant favor getting therapy instead writing/producing shows. You don't even have to look at the B/S story to get how effed up she is. She has only 1 writing credit for Angel (s1e13 'She') and that episode tells you all you need to know.

And the less said about Jane Espenson the better. That woman also belongs in the mental ward locked away. She's a writer on Once Upon A Time (I don't watch that) and there is a ship that she favors that is kinda her new Spuffy if you will. Though she doesn't just keep it to Spuffy. Her treatment of Xander in her episodes also makes me angry (he is either buttmonkeyed or emasculated or whatever). Get yourself a shrink woman.


Also I've already said this in the 'does spuffy threaten you' thread but I will never ever buy that Angel wasn't there for Buffy after her ressurection. Even if Buffy tried to keep how she really feels a secret, that has never worked with Angel. He could always see through her pretty easily. Also their history dictates that Buffy would confide in him. And I'm supposed to accept that the guy who made it his mission to save lost souls can't be bothered to help save the one of someone he loves so dearly? Yeah, right. Even if Buffy suggested he go back to his life and not worry abut her. Pft. Like that has stopped Angel before. And I know due to the 2 shows and network crap it couldn't have happened. But then they shouldn't have had them mention those 2 meeting each other halfway offscreen.

As to the comics I think it's just one giant joke that has already played itself out back in S8 (fan-fiction anyone?). The utter destruction of Angel's character in the Buffy title (not even in his OWN) is something I can't ever recover from. The one character who is somewhat on equal footing with Buffy when it comes to importance in the verse (he had his own show/comics after all) gets thrown under the mothership. Just no.

Now from what I can see they are doing a good job in the comics of getting rid of even more paying customers. Introducing non-canon characters and actually having the audacity to have Buffy of all people say 'He wasn't so bad.' in reference to unsouled Spike. Excuse me while I'm over here in the corner looking for my eyes because I think that's where they went after falling out of my head from all the rolling. Let's forget for a moment the 120 years of murder, rape and torture before the chip came along. This is said by the woman who personally experienced multiple murder attempts, betrayal, murder/rape attempts on her friends, emotional/physical abuse and attempted rape at the hands of said guy and words fail me. Seriously I can't deal with this verse anymore.

I'll stick to what I have already mentioned before. I reject the Dawnverse and all that entails. That verse is some twisted, upside down and inside out version of the actual Canonverse. So that's what we have been forced to put up with since S5. Either that or the Restless dream took some very weird turns and they all wake up at one point.

GAH.
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janas
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:
Right now, the comics flat out have Spike say he never loved Buffy. He couldn’t. He didn’t have a soul. HE IS NOW TWO PEOPLE. Like Angel/Angelus.

You can't imagine how much this pisses me off. It's contradicts clearly the canon, unless it here you do want to see this as Spike's evolution and actually I'm ok with that. But if it's true that he couldn't love her because he had not a soul, I would also like Spuffies to stop with the whole thing "I always thought Spike was a good guy even a when he was a bad guy"

Spuffy fans make a decision. You can not have your cake and eat it.
Quote:
Never mind. I just thought the update on Spike, to make it “okay” for Buffy to love Spike is supposed to be now settled.
Yeah. Buffy deserved to be raped. She’s all okay with it because she was flawed.
SPIKE the truthteller (evil, remember) season 7 YOU HATED YOURSELF AND TOOK IT OUT ON ME.
WHY does Buffy HATE HERSELF???? Joss did it with SUPERIOR/INFERIOR and the “shock” of self realization was NOT herself, but her evil truthteller TELLING HER TO EXPLAIN SHOWING HER in a PHYSICAL AND MENTAL SEXUAL ASSAULT/RAPE??

Horror in its purest form. In the last comics preview, it seems that Buffy blames only herself for what has happened in season 6. Spike was not to blame because he was without a soul. So, basically, Christos Gage gives Buffy all the blame, including rape. Really?

As for Marti Noxon, for a long time she has been object of bashing by a lot of fans. Here's what she wrote in her twitter.
I ruined Buffy and I will RUIN YOU TOO.
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sybil
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PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 2:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

About that "ruining you, too."

I guess she is right. We keep giving power to her writing with OUR, real live, human body and mind upset over a FICTIONAL CHARACTER.

I don't know the context, which is important--tweets can be sarcasm and meant to be funny. HOwever, If Marti is speaking to real people, with this tweet as a real threat, that is exactly the agression that reveals some serious "health issues" that inspired Buffy agressing on Spike in the first place (Jumping his bones AFTER she had returned from seeing Angel.

Obviously that "unseen visit" was the last straw for Buffy--nothing had changed with regard to the curse and all the love and comfort they wanted to share COMPLETELY with each other would have been denied. How that happened is for fic writers.

However, I do think Marti's worship of Spike, over Buffy, as I interpret her handling of Joss's mythology, was utterly backwards, misfired and other writers keep on dong it as "canon" would reference and it just keeps on being more horrible at every attempt to fix it and make Spike "worthy" of redemption with "true and pure love."

(Read sexless, of course). Buffy cuddling her rapist physically made me hurl at the time. However, while Angel had perfect peace, which occurred after sex, Spike was utterly terrified and Joss said "Fans can interpret if she slept with Spike or not when he had a soul (staring at each other in season 7 from opposite sides of the basement before going to war; and the cut "they could have"). But JOSS also said, she couldn't have sex with Spike and I quote, "'after that.'"

Thank you JOSS! Mr. Green

Marti has been described by other writers as the "whip and chains girl,"
as it actually is a rule of "good writing" to torture your protagonist, so you will suffer with them, root for them and find catharsis within the narrative in some way. She has been instrumental in some of the best stuff with Buffy and Angel, but JOSS WAS ACTUALLY THERE: also the reason season 1 through 3 are so very strong. 4 suffered with launching ATS and ATS went to hell in all sorts of flubs, failures, inspirations, and fixes.
Spike with a soul was hopeless. He had completed his journey and therefore could not be the "evil truthteller." He was just a "me, too" plot device regarding "tanists" and a blood v bond in "brotherhood." I think. Dunno. Yawn.

The thing is, the "metaphor" of "whips and chains, suffering" is literal in BTVS and Marti IMO, thought the strong heroine requires "beating up" the very female principle that makes her the slayer, as SELF HATE. Spike was "the girl" being beaten under Buffy! DUHHHH. so it's STILL a Male principle beating up a female principle??

But Buffy was the woman clearly "dominated" by a male body crawling over her when she said, "NO!" and surrdenerd to SOBBING! And suddenly Spike, clearly a male, by this act, gives our protagonist HER POWER back. uhhhh..... MISFIRE TWICE says to me, Marti has issues, even if she wants to "yuck it up" that it all was only a job for fictional people. No one is more naked in a piece than the writer and there is nothing on that stage without the writer.

My fav writer on ATS--even though Marti again involved with IWRY, IF I RECALL CORRECTLy-- was actually Tim Minear, but again, he will completely cross lines--(American Horror, seas 2 anyone?) without JOSS HIMSELF to control degree, pacing, and clarity of metphors. JOSS IS THE MAN, even if he is not perfect--especially when it comes to Angel. IMO.

I do think that Marti as show runner in season 6 shows me, "when in doubt" show shirtless Spike. CRAAAaaaashing bore. Even if it is actually true Spike wasn't on the stage more than Buffy--THE STORY was all about making Spike redeemable and sucked the life out of Buffy's own journey. Buffy's forgiveness and mercy (give, live, love) given to Angel was supposed to the actual avenue Spike "made the connection"--trouble was, a vampire seeking a soul he never had because he had this "stain of humanity" just doesn't track.

Those who believe soul is angel and souless is Angelus--and we have PROOF with the actual light coming and going in the two people approach--will never accept "this gray" of "stain of humanity" of the host holding Spike psychologically MORE COMPLEX between id and superego for a more developed "ego"--which is where all this "More mature" B.S. comes from.

The comics, in making all the characters standard paperboard, refute this now, but is to give B/Aers the "ammo"--see we were right: two people in getting rid of the overriding POSSESSION of the (evil) Twilight God on both Buffy and Angel--part of her self-betrayal in "screwing Angel" to heaven and back" for a love that is "clearly tainted" by evil Twilight.

HOwever, strong woman Buffy, "threw off her rapist" and said "F*ck Paradise" I want them! (the people and the world--NOT actually "evil Angel" who couldn't help himself, because HE IS THE GIRL birthing this new universe/Twilight into reality). See?

So, pass me the bucket. Marti wins. I get upset because B/A IS the story of becoming for male and female principles WITHIN every single human.
HUGS!
sybil

p.s. "sex and the single girl" simply is not what Joss was talking about, IMO

p.p.s. Sorry for all the mistakes--no time for fixing! Embarassed
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janas
Dark Avenger


Joined: 31 Jan 2011
Posts: 455
Location: Italia

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:

I don't know the context, which is important--tweets can be sarcasm and meant to be funny.

It is not a tweet, she wrote this under her icon. In that space, is typically included a brief description of who you are, and she chose to write that sentence.


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sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Fri Nov 14, 2014 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sneak, sneak

Humor is not universal.

The fact you ‘Don’t put “Baby” in the corner—“Dirty Dancing.” AND she is shown in a corner, of red cushions and all alone, looking up, as if she is in HELL, spoofing the apology for destroying the “Saint Buffy” of B/A “fascination.” AND the tables look like bars of a prison, she is saying, she can’t help it she’s evil. (like Harmony?) I think?

I would guess she is trying to be funny, even as she is saying she is so evil, anything she writes will destroy the innocent who venture there to tweet—it’s her in nature to be unredeemable, even if she tries to do good work,

OR: WE take it PERSONALLY.

She needs us to recognize WE have put her in hell with OUR vile commentary on not just Buffy, but on her “mental health,” “talent” and other very personal slams—it doesn’t matter she actually likes Spike over all others, (YES, ONCE he was great comic relief and unapologetic evil aka “fun” –eye roll) but she may feel she is professional enough to give the story what it needs, whether some fans like it or not. So, WHO KNOWS—humor is often hard for me anyway. It’s mostly cruel.

WHO CARES ABOUT MARTI NOXON? She makes a damn good living because of Joss, IMO. She has her place when on a leash—and doesn’t she just love “the bondage leather?” HA HA! Air in, hold, air out. (PFFT.)

Hair. Besides color, light, dark, and middle. “Helmet head” does appear to look like a “dick” –which is what Angelus really also embodies, but also means “control” on a character representing chaos or “now.”

And we know William was more “controlled” than addict Liam—who appears “straight laced and controlled” in appearance, but is actually wild, uncontrollable lust, etc—which is why Angel brushing Buffy’s stray hair behind her ear is actually making her “under control” in his image of her perfection. Yup. The famous jury of “some say” he is not taking her as she is, but has an idealized view of her. Yes. You got it. Spuffy.

Even if I disagree that it is one of the safer touches and “petting” he can share to “help” and show he approved of her completely, as Buffy did, in fact, used to be concerned how she looked “in the work place.” Ha!

I guess instead of softening my edges, I get more rabid and less tolerant of the great thunder and wonder of Spike at all. Why doesn’t he deal with Dru—Buffy had to face her lover’s face with evil spewing out of it? And, would Spike “sacrifice” himself for her? Yeah. I didn’t think so. Angel did for Darla. A lot even when he told her he never loved her and she damned him and she was perfect despair. Yeah…ACCEPT NO SUBSTITUTES!

Angel4Buffyforever!
HUGS!
sybil
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