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When The comic writer of B/S lovefest compared Bangel to B/S

 
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elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 8:42 am    Post subject: When The comic writer of B/S lovefest compared Bangel to B/S Reply with quote

Some of you may be confused why I put this topic under General Show instead of the Comic Forum but personally, I really want to avoid the comic forum since I felt that forum is merely about B/S now and I have no intention to read all the threads about B/S neither about the dismaying portrayal of Angel in his "revival" comics.

I was also thinking about putting this under B/A thread since Bangel has a huge part in this topic but I am afraid that I will infest that thread of furthermore talks about B/S, as the trend now on BtVS fandom, we can't talk Bangel without talking about B/S. Sadly, it seems Bangel and B/S are mutually inclusive topic since PTB tolerated the ship war arising from TV series continued up to the comics.

Anyway, I already declared on social media that I would try to move on and away the btvs fandom. However, there are moments I read some things online that have kept me coming back, one of the reasons is about Bangel. Another is when I see some btvs writers (tv & comics) glorify Spuke and B/S as if it were the greatest thing happened on tv.

Few days ago, a twitter friend sent me a link about a convo which started by Steven DeKnight. Here's the link;


https://twitter.com/stevendeknight/status/889878539033468933

in case anyone has trouble in opening the link, Steven DeKnight quoted a tweet from a James Masters' fan which showed the B/S rape scene. That JM fan captioned the scene "The Buffy Episode That Changed the Way We Talk About Television".

Steven DeKnigth quoted that tweet and said "Marti Noxon and I were on set, if memory serves. A tough scene all around, but Joss never shied away from exploring difficult issues".

Before I go to my main reason why I decided to post this topic, I would like to tell my initial reaction when I saw the tweet. I was surprised,hurt, speechless that the people behind the rape scene, though acknowledging the "toughness' of it, seemed proud that they did it for the sake of "exploring difficult issues".

Don't get me wrong but Rape Scenes shown on books, tv and movies are NOT something "new". Many directors and showrunners have already shown such scenes in different genres. I'm not sure what this JM fan meant when she said about "that Buffy episode that changed the way we talk about television". Knowing which side she's on, I'm pretty sure she pertained to the "controversy" it brings between the assaulter and assaulted. Most rape scenes I've seen so far, apart from this Buffy ep, the assaulter is NORMALLY punished!!!! The one who was assaulted is the VICTIM!!!!

So this JM fan, it's either she hasn't been exposed in rape scene or she meant that in this case, Spuke as the "assaulter" was GIVEN MORE SYMPATHIES OVER THE VICTIM, who is Buffy, and that means the rape scene is not ENTIRELY to be blame to Spuke, but instead, Buffy should take blame too.

Whatever it is, the reaction from different twitter users after Steven DeKnight quoted that JM fan's tweet, made the convo interesting. Few to highlight are these:

Quote:
Marion Delaunay‏ @DarthMarion
Except he didn't fully explore it. Didn't he make it all about the male character?


Quote:
Hallwayhighway‏ @hallwayhighway

Marti should never have written that scene followed by romanticizing the relationship and having Buffy say she loves him. It was disgusting.
If they were writing an abusive relationship it should have been seen framed as such, it should not in any way have been romanticized.
I was shocked the other day when I saw stills from the new comics showing what looked like Buffy with Spike, how is this even okay.


It's not clear if these users were Bangel fans. But it's much better they are not, because that goes to show that even if someone is not ship motivated, they can see what's wrong with B/S that these so-called "creative" writers can NOT see.

And if you continued to browse on the convo, you could see that the comic writer responsible for the B/S lovefest, (the one I personally called idiot and a jerk) Christos Gage commented too. Remember that I was blocked by Gage so I couldn't see his tweet and neither he could with mine, not unless we signed out from twitter or opened the link using different browsers such as Chrome or Safari. I can't link his tweet but here's are his response;

Gage response:
Quote:
Gage: "I wrote that comic, & respect ur viewpoint too. Honest Q: if Spike w/ soul is responsible 4 his soulless actions, how is Buffy/Angel OK?
"

Quote:
Marion responded:
"Yeah Angel/Buffy was highly problematic too. Honest question: why bring it up? It had absolutely no part in the conversation..."

Gage responded:
"Trying to take temperature on whether Buffy/any souled vamp is problematic or just Spike b/c of attempted assault. Understand probs w/ both."


Obviously I couldn't respond directly to that assh*le as we both blocked each other. Though I commented on the convo just to air my viewpoint. A buffy fan replied to me, asking me why I argue and of course I replied in a manner that I think she could easily understand. I also get that she was hurt I called spke as Spuke as she told me that's a bit immature, and so I replied that the ship war drove me crazy and brought me to the level of immaturity because as Spukey fans bashed every Bangel fans they know, up to the actors themselves, I made my keypad automatically replaces "i" with "u" in spke's name, as a payback to piss off some spukey fans. Mr. Green

Oh I also said:
Quote:
None of this ship war would happen if only the writers were careful enough on writing storyline that they knew wld create "controversy"


that tweet was noticed by Steven DeKnight as he quoted as a reply to me:

Quote:
Steven DeKnight‏Verified account @stevendeknight

I respect your opinion, but again, I can only speak in depth to the reasoning behind decisions on shows I actually ran.

https://twitter.com/stevendeknight/status/891346728112107521

Of course I replied to him as courtesy:
Quote:
I know & thanks. Those who are responsible in doing it shld take responsible in taking the criticism why btvs and ats fandom are toxic now.


that tweet is intended to those writers who deliberately made the Spuke's redemption arc which for me I consider as the MAIN REASON why BtVS and Ats fandom are divided, infested and ruined by Spukey worshippers.

Of course I was hoping they would react, but I guess I was not as important as those B/S fans whom they could show how PROUD they are in "ruining" Buffy. I was expecting Noxon would join the convo, but I guess, she is busy receiving "accolades" on her new projects, how the male partner is always the suspect in killing women, along her rants against Trump's "disgusting" behavior. Rolling Eyes

Geez...Marti Noxon, the woman whose captions in her twitter profile info says "I ruined Buffy and I will ruin you too".

I remember a B/S fan tweeted her and told her "she didn't ruin Buffy and she definitely did not ruin her (b/s fan). Saying Season 6 was her fave BtVS seasons". I remember Marti Noxon "liked" that tweet.

Gosh...as I read her tweets in support of "anti-violence against women", I can't help but to VOMIT as I wonder how she could post tweets that show she supports women and she is a feminist, while she GLORIFIES her work on Season 6 when Buffy took the crap from an abuser w/c later on Joss fully supported as "better relationship" over Bangel?!!!

And Joss Whedon....I know I hurt the feelings of some joss' fans here. But sorry, no matter how you defend that guy, you can't refute the SIMPLEST FACT that HE APPROVED B/S, especially its evolution as "romance"!!!!!

You even believe that he was NO PART of Marti's mess in Season 6. Read Steven DeKnight's tweet. Go back to Joss' declaration that "there's no part on his shows that HE DID NOT APPROVE". How can you still spare him of the Bullshits that is B/S????

I'm not here to argue with any Bangel fan. Like I said, I already declared moving away from this fandom. I haven't re-watched for months any Btvs/Ats episode be it Bangel-centric or not . But I admit, every now and then, I miss how I fangirl Bangel. How can I not? I spent time and efforts in cheering it, fighting for it, spreading its story for so many years. I know some of you did it too. It will take some time for me to be detached from Bangel.

I am already acknowledging defeat, as a B/A fan. No matter how I encourage some Bangel fans to continue commemorating Bangel's love story, I can't deny the fact that Bangel is just a thing from the past. . A tragic love story that was destroyed by people who don't have ANY IDEA what Bangel MEANS!!!! At least in Romeo & Juliet, both died in order for their loved ones to SEE and to UNDERSTAND what their love means despite of the war involving their family. Bangel ended with PTB making a third party that's so GREAT, his story is considered "MOST EVOLVED" by the "creator" himself. And his evolution started the war and his VICTORY over his rival and the girl he wanted to be "under" him WOULD end such war and eventually would also end the GREATEST LOVE STORY Joss will ever write....Fuck you, Joss!!!!

The reunion for btvs 20th anniv, though provided me with some joy, is not enough motivation for Bangel fanbase.

Like I said, Joss saying Bangel as the "greatest love story he will write..and all blah, blah, blah" while he also said that B/S is better in "long-term" (long-term his ass Mad) is another EPIC fail from him. If he intended to CONTINUE such GREATEST LOVE STORY, he won't allow the likes of Scott Allie and Christos Gage to RUIN it by making the B/S lovefest!!!!! Gosh, at least in Cangel, David Greenwalt NEVER INSULTED Bangel the way these bunch of eggheads mocked and ruined Bangel!!!!

Okay, sorry for the rants (again, can't help it. I'm so emotionally hyped now)

What I'm really trying to say....for those Bangel fans who still lurk time to time on this forum. I beg all of you, to please GIVE ONE LAST PUSH for Bangel love story. I know all of you move on from whatever real life you have now. But visiting this place, means a part of you misses this.

We can confine ourselves by rewatching old episodes, but it will never erase the pangs everytime we think about the direction the series continued in a "canon" world blessed by Whedon.

I'm not asking you to attack the writers or joss. I'm ranting as I usually do, but I'm not asking you to imitate me. I know most of you are better in explaining things than I do. That's why I am begging you, to USE your mind and voice to reason out with these writers.

These writers obviously don't visit this place as the way they write dialogues and how brainwashed their minds are, it's obvious they visit places where Spukey fans dominate. They are NOT familiar on how we VIEW Bangel as opposed how B/S fans do.

I ask you to use this opportunity to reach out with these writers. Say what you want you to say without resorting to things B/S fans trademark offensive tactics. The more they see Bangel supporters, they would probably realize their mistake.

I'm not sure what we could get as validation of our cause. Personally, I want Joss himself, to retract everything he said about B/S being better than Bangel in long-term. Long-term means "VISION", a "FUTURE". Joss never talked about Bangel in "LONG-TERM" aspect. That's why I assume he NEVER REALLY wanted to CONTINUE Bangel as for him, Buffy/Angel together means his STORY is OVER. Such crappy thing to say from someone considered by many as "genius".

I don't know what most of you want...but, again I say this. If you CONTINUE to be SILENT, how THEY WILL KNOW that you STILL CARE?

Rewatching is good....but it only makes us nostalgic about the PAST that we don't have at the PRESENT, and NOT SURE if we can have it back in the FUTURE.

I honestly don't know what we will get if we air our side. I consider the comics as HOPELESS. Like I said, if ever they brought back Bangel in the future, I doubt that they could make a better story about it especially if it means that we had TO SWALLOW EVERYTHING they DO on B/S now in order that their future story for Bangel would come into fruition.

But seeing a Bangel fan re-tell Bangel's story in their own way, is such a pure joy for me. Imagine if we could see it from old-timer Bangel fans who are prolific writers.

I don't know what we can get now, but from what I learned from a TV guy in early 2000's as I watched his show religiously every week, including re-runs, he said:

If there is no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters, then all that matters is what we do. 'cause that's all there is. What we do, now, today. - Angel

I'm hoping that quote still means something TODAY not only for Angel fans, but for Buffy fans who value her story with Angel.

Good day to everyone. I gave you the link earlier, it's up to you if you would click and do something.



Heart


Last edited by elle2 on Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:02 am; edited 1 time in total
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sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where are we 'clicking'? Luddite and half blind. Sorry, 'elle

I understand your difficulties with “what happened” to what was called an “epic” story told in B/A, which turned into changing the narrative into the “Redemption of Spike.” (

This change was “justified” by its very roots in his first appearance of BTVS, which makes currently makes him a “pal” in the anime featured “re-do” of BTVS—and some fans have Spike in love with Buffy before seeing her, because he was drawn to Sunnydale by her power (snort)—in the current comics—but sticking with tv: in this “victimization” of Spike and the love he was just “dying” to give, as rooted in and taken from his loyalty and passion for Druscilla, further “explained” as “real” and “real world” by the Judge that he still had some remnant of humanity. Actually he was written by writers who are human who “had fun” in giving him power AND pathos in FAILURE. That made him “sympathetic”—which once belonged to B/A, who actually were TRAGIC, because they did not fail. They gave Spike the “full soap opera” complexity that had not been revealed in Angel UNTIL Angelus was shown. The writers gave the VIEWERS an “instant” power into and OVER, the “world of Spike,” that was well dressed in rebellious youth, quixotic emotions of a human being, and the “job” of a soap opera star to create “complexity” by mostly sleeping with every possible creature dumped into plot, all the while, working out his “true love” of the main protagonist ALL with HUMOR. Which is another word for ‘surprise’ and the emotional release/relief in laughter, that makes liking him, whether a fool, or failure, or evil, into wanting him to actually win everything he wants. That made Buffy “an object” from the start. And THAT is why “Spuke” is mostly a disgusting ‘ship, to me. His greatest compliment to Buffy is that she is “’a hell of a woman.’” But what was SHOWN is that obtaining this object—grail—through rape—MADE HIM A HUMAN BEING: he changed and went looking for his soul.

What ‘canon’ once upon a time said that vampires have no soul—the conscience, at least, if not more—made such an ability to CARE that he hurt Buffy an impossibility.

That he himself in hell said, “I'll take anything you can throw at me, if it'll get me what I need to take care of the Slayer. Give her what's coming to her.” Doesn’t mean what is said in the tone of his voice that is angry, vengeful, but means “the opposite” in how deeply HE cares for her and wants to give her what she “really deserves” aka HIM. This is vaguely realizing the “ONLY” difference between him and Angel is “the soul.” So! Angel’s “reach” is long, considering he hasn’t been on the show in years. But mostly, it “shows” how DESERVING Spike is to “win” what HE wants. Which is Buffy. Buffy’s love of course will flow forth as Spike declares she has felt “all along.” And these fans often feel they have been “waiting” ever since ‘Fool for Love” to have this resolution be shown as the “true love” that can stand the “heat” of the very worst of themselves. Well, Buffy never killed Spike, as she did Angel. So this “worst”means a rape is something “to get over.” And that is what the comics tried to do, but AGAIN—GOD DAMN IT!—it was about Spike getting forgiveness from Buffy. And that makes her A-OK. THEN! They actually have Angel “endorse” this relationship, as the Judge made about himself and Buffy: “it’ll never last.”

Spike here speaks to obtaining “the torment” of a soul for himself—that he has to fight to get, and HE thinks is the “ONLY” difference that counted in Buffy choosing him over Angel. After all, he had “courted her” with the very things she “needed”—Spike didn’t abandon her, Spike fought her and with her and against her to suit HER mood (it is often claimed: she needed HIM, an EQUAL)—yet he demands to be “what I was.” He was never an ensouled vampire, so I have no idea what any of that “transition” to “Spike the White” means.

I just want to end on a positive note, that “the epic story” remains and all the perversions of it, simply aren’t going to erase what every honest person knows (and believe thee me, I do particularly notice those of faith in this because of the experience of coming to faith and knowing it to be as true as anything they can know) Buffy and Angel are first love, true love, forever and forever moment love. Spuke is basically dragging around what the “jaded” writers make to be true. FAILURE wins. Why? Because they are “the adults” and “they have experience” and “story” is not “real life.”

THAT to me, in a nutshell, is the biggest FAILURE of all: failing the story you would tell because YOU no longer believe what your characters ACTUALLY believe. It is why most “first love” stories just turn into a lazy Susan of lovers and soap opera to create some plot for commercials to be sold. It is the “re working” of the story “out of necessity” that the REAL story can’t be told on a show being cancelled with “the correct protagonist” unavailable—even in his own story, also screwed up with yet a third story (Firefly) that was failed before it was even aired in proper order. You’d think these writers “would catch a clue” that they keep doing the “same thing” and “using the same kind of ending in every show out there and it is

BORING.

They can only write what they call a real world CLICHÉ. How is that “epic”?

They want to show FAILURE is “what really happens with ALL love stories. What they didn’t show is that TRAGEDY is outside of the lovers; “failure” is BETWEEN the lovers. And every fan knows it isn’t only illogic about Spike’s romance with Buffy, it is the simple fact that “the problem” is a. he is a vampire; b. she is a “superhero” slayer (who no longer has to slay with thousands in the world, and by their own choice…after the fact of “being called;” c. THE CURSE. His AND hers.

It is “sentimental” to write a love story that doesn’t FAIL, except with the win of “wisdom.” The problem is that what is TRUE and WE STILL KNOW IT, is only a “wish” that never came true for these writers, for what they themselves can never have.

It simply isn’t “mature” to believe otherwise. (and yet many actually have some religious faith !)

And that is why I still hold Joss’s feet to the fire, to NOT BE the cynic and “show what you know” because B/A is the ONLY story that can “tell the tale” and “not exalt the teller” over the “point” of telling the tale in the first place: To weave a lie to expose the truth.

This IS the horror genre, after all, but Buffy and Angel need that third death to show achieved the goals of the story in which death is “the gift.” (Becoming a. normal and b. mortal)

AND WHY death? Because that is the sacrifice (give up childhood). No more vampire. No more slayer. All is internalized—we have our avatars and guides within, just as we have our instincts and learning, as having learned what “the father” would have made clear in those lessons of learning. But the third death also provides (horror) “the keys” to the kingdom of adulthood: each other: first love, true love, forever love won in that “forever moment”—death—to be transfigured to life. Human life. Expressing their both their humanity in pure love (joy and peace are the accomplishments) with their own free will.

I don’t tweet, and the writers are told to tell a story. Never mind canon—even their own—and don’t ask any questions other than what “marvel” or ‘dc” would do with their superheroes. “The job is the soul” and that means the hero is tragic and boring and done.
The writers and artists don't want to create crap, but comics are different than tv and showing B/A was an entire issue of love making, which most felt boring because sex itself is "chunga chunga" and that is all that is be spoken of that is the "forbidden" to them, while what is the real barrier is never EVER addressed to "keep grinding out more for the sake of "more."

DeKnight is interested in violating flesh in as many ways as possible. See his first show on ATS had Angel covered in more blood than the entire show up to then. That is his idea of "horror" and "true life" in every show he is used or chooses to write.

JOSS knows horror in heart stopping truth. It is not just some creepy, "rising damp" but a real SHOCK AND YOU NEVER FORGET IT.

That alone is why his choice at season 7 to keep Buffy as the slayer is simply "too bad."

Why? Because “good” IS pure and simple and has no "drama"--read failure--in their minds--which is IRONIC when I spoke of ther own cynicism that is exposed BECAUSE they are artists. (And considering what comes from their hands: cynicism, sentimentality and easy outs.

See Ducks write 400 pages of love that never fails itself. It can be done, with interest, humor and power.
Hugs!
sybil
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elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil, it's okay if you dont have twitter. Your words are enough to give me some ideas. If you don't mind, I'm planning to use some of your words and post it on my twitter page.

There was an article from Movie Pilot, which sentiments echoed ours. Here's the link:

https://moviepilot.com/p/buffy-how-spike-undermined-the-show-s-message-of-female-empowerment/4245685

the title itself is self-explanatory and already a warning for B/S advocates that they would not like what they would read on it. Never mind the comment section, it's already unsurprising that B/S fans would defend their idol.

Here are some bits in the article we already discussed before:

Quote:

"The return of Spike's soul seemingly served as a plot device to essentially absolve him of his horrifying actions. It ignited sympathy and undeserving mercy towards him from Buffy and many fans of the show. Somehow, attempted rape set Spike off on a journey of self-discovery that eventually led to him saving the day in 'Chosen' without ever having to pay for his sins. That was the big take away".


and here's the one I've been trying to POINT OUT ever since we talked about Whedon's favoritism for Spuke:

Quote:
"Girl Power Saved the Day, But Emotional Abuse Won the War"

The series writers validated Spike's abusive and manipulative behavior right up to the end. As Buffy told Spike she loved him while the Hellmouth crashed down around them in 'Chosen', he told her how she really felt.

- In that moment, when Buffy told Spike the one thing he wanted to hear so badly, regardless of how genuine it was, the abusive monster within could not tolerate someone else being in emotional control. While most would have graciously accepted Buffy's sentiment, Spike told her that she did not actually love him. In their final moments together, he was unable to produce pure or genuine love for her. For Spike, it was a game of control to the end...


Those abovementioned points were and continually ignored by PTB and Spukey worshippers. These people are defending and praising Spuke as a character and his "relationship" with Buffy, but they forgot giving the same respect to Buffy as a "character". They praise Buffy as a "show" but they give praises to Spuke as the "best character" in the show. What does it tell us?!!!! Simple, Spuke PREVAILS at the end.

Buffy saying his name as her "last word" in the TV Series, is I consider a symbolical INSULT. So much consideration given to Spuke that the whole S7 is nothing but a tribute to what he has done and what he could sacrifice for Buffy, so HE COULD GET WHAT HE WANTS.

If Tim Minear did not write that plot where Angel was given the amulet that WOULD SAVE the day for Scooby Gang, who knows what Joss would come as "dramatic" plot to fully show that Spuke was a hero?!!!!

Btw, sybil thanks. I miss reading on Duck's Babble Board. Is Ducks still alive? Has she changed her mind about Bangel?

We are stuck in the past...in old gold days...can we move on from this drama of ship war without giving up our fascination for Bangel? Maybe, but there will always be a part of us asking and wondering, "What If".

And asking "what if" without getting THE answer, is the saddest question we will live by.

But that's just me. I don't know about the others.
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sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
Posts: 861

PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, ‘elle! I can barely make sense of what I wrote, with the kind of mistakes I made in typing it. I apologize to you and all that I should have taken the time to edit or not write at all.

Thank you, too, for posting that link. It was so good of you to share it to those of us who love the characters, the structure of the “epic” tale given to both Buffy and Angel, not to mention, writing that has literally changed the culture, even added to the measure of “girl power” in that culture.

It is good to see that the failure of the show (and comics) is not in those “crazy bangel” upset with Spuke and Spuffy, but actually has objective, factual bases, in Buffy NOT changing and growing and why.

As I said, Joss actually showed the necessity for learning in a story of “becoming” (adult) and the fact that the third death (and even the mythic union of opposites offered in B/A, and shown, over and over) also offers the costs and consequences of becoming (normal, which includes mortality) adult, and may include an implied promise of “happily ever after.” The story we are watching is actually “the after.” And it hasn’t been told or completed and I will perish from this earth before it ever is. But then, I have the myths from which it sprang and not some forgettable soap opera that can hardly be called “epic” when even the titular character is an object and “never changes” and thus, she only defines neurotic.

I have described the flaws in the redemption of Spike story that "forgot" the point of the story,(becoming) actually shown in season 3, except for stepping over the mutual curses of Buffy and Angel, that provide an implied promise of the greatest power of all: enlightenment. And that simply means, "knowing what to see." as offered by the father figure, Giles as the guide to living strong and responsible, with compassion, (her unique gift of mercy includes herself) in the world.

Because these writers really don't know how to empower Buffy by Buffy herself, the failures continue and "attacking Spike" is both exhausting and note even the point for failing the story that hasn't been told to completion, in favor of this monstrous effort to breathe life into paper dolls, bearing the burden of plot and our entertainment,, which will never be defined as "epic" no matter how much blood is splashed, eyes oogle, or heads roll, tossed into some battle scene, dragging Fonzie and the shark with them.

Buffy, after 20 years, is simply embarrassing, whatever these writers are doing with all the busy and "professional" claims. They are not "continuing" the story I was shown, structurally, and in fact, with ONLY an eye toward "keeping her alive" by turning Buffy into the very creature she no longer slays, anyway. But stupid. A lot.

I won't address again what has been chosen for Spike or Angel, as they are unbelievable, from any POV I can manage to interpret, as given by others, as well. And "the implied promise" has to finish dealing with the curse, which isn't said clearly to "just kill Giles, " but does destroy childhood. And that, structurally requires the third death.

I didn't write the rules for this, and the balance of heaven and hell cannot be merely "life is pain" so Buffy in pain is good Buffy. It is first love, true love, forever love in the forever moment holding transfiguring power over what it is to be human--as shown , mythically, in season eight by tantra/zen union of opposites, in Angel and Buffy who became gods, (enlightened to themselves and having compassion for the world) I have no idea what else would do it, since sex was the device used to "divide and conquer" in a story that is joyfully, positive, and is The Odyssey, and promises "happily ever after" for having "become" and "learned the lessons" to do so. It is the "after" that is that story we see.

So, thanks, but I like the “what if” story of the girl Joss started, who can empower herself and others, with the special gift of mercy that can heal others, but seems to be denied herself: and that, people, is the real “girl power” in every human that ever was or will be. And why? Because she really can learn and “save the world a lot.”

Angel? In his own story, is stuck, in guilt that controls his free will; and his only true freedom (that requires the greatest responsibility) is in loving Buffy; and he has to understand why “soul boy” knowing is not enough. Angelus isn't going away, just because Angel dies, the third time to become human—he can’t. (Don’t just cast some spell or drug him clueless!) The fact is "the union of opposites"--in all the measure of "all about Buffy" or "all about Angel"--is that their own natures are in opposition and that is what their lesson is to be understood : this division of self, in union , provides both the means to learn and the strength to endure the learning. That is what Angel’s existential rant is about: “life is struggle”—not ! “life is pain.” That's all folks!


Hugs!
Sybil

P.s. Edit! Still mistakes and no time to fix it. Darn and Sorry! Ducks does write her own stuff and also helpful articles, but she doesn't participate in the fandom, because the boards blew up, over and over, and she, as an artist, and knowledgeable about story, was utterly sickened with what happened to it. After all, Ducks, is from Spike, a character she enjoyed, when his "purple passion" for Druscilla was "epic in his own mind" and thus, showed the great difference in what love is, what is can cost, what it can power and why B/A is truly epic in all the "forever" of nations' understanding. I know she suffered with health issues, but I am in hopes they didn't actually cause her passing. I don't know, even if I miss her, wish there was some way to tell her her work is still treasured, as is she, even if the pain of speaking about those beloveds that inspired her, too is too painful. I would only wish, like me, she is forever grateful to have actually seen Buffy and Angel materialize that which is only dreamed and believed in, without any easy to see proof.

She, too, got me interested in myths that will cross "old religions" in the way of seeing the world work. I just feel happy-sad about Ducks, as happy to know she is a real person who loves Buffy and Angel, and proved it, and sad we can't visit and just talk about Lughnasagh (today).
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elle2
Dark Avenger


Joined: 28 Aug 2014
Posts: 269

PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 6:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sybil wrote:
Thank you, too, for posting that link. It was so good of you to share it to those of us who love the characters, the structure of the “epic” tale given to both Buffy and Angel, not to mention, writing that has literally changed the culture, even added to the measure of “girl power” in that culture.

It is good to see that the failure of the show (and comics) is not in those “crazy bangel” upset with Spuke and Spuffy, but actually has objective, factual bases, in Buffy NOT changing and growing and why.


It's also a relief for me to know that there are non-shipper viewers who noticed the things we do about the wrongness of B/S. I remember being criticized of one-sidedness about my rants against B/S which I never really denied I favored Bangel. But like I said before, I had been a fan of Ats before I became a Bangel fan, and there was a moment I had favored Cangel over Bangel; I had enjoyed soulless Spuke's hilarious failures on BtVS pre-S6; I had enjoyed watching OMWF; I had thought that some B/S and Briley's sex scenes were hot and I had fantasized shipping Angel with Faith. I did try to be open-minded on whatever plot the writers had written for both BtVS and Ats because I was thinking "what possible harm those plots could do to my young mind"?!! So, I had waited and kept waiting until both series wrapped up on tv. Back then, I was sure I didn't like Angel S5. I was just afraid to pinpoint what went wrong on Ats S5 because I loved the show so much that I was afraid to be critical about its flaws. But I was sure, missing Cordelia as part of the Angel Inc. was one of the reasons why I PERSONALLY considered Ats S5 as the WORST season for the show. Yes, despite of some noteworthy eps (Smile Time & You're Welcome) S5 is worse than S4, imo. And I already thought of that before I went amok and began hate-rants against joss.

Yes, I'm upset and maybe crazy. So I guess I fall into that category of "crazy Bangel fans" upset with Spuke and B/S.

That's why I enjoy being comforted that I'm not the only one who thought the way I did. Because despite of such "craziness" and "upsets", I know that we are not stupid people who just went into bandwagon and give praise to these writers to show how "devoted" we are to the franchise that no longer gives us satisfaction.

But of course, for Spukey fanatics, for those "buffy fans" who think B/S is okay, for those who think they "understand" and "make sense" of B/S in the comics, I assume that the comic narratives still give them satisfaction, especially they get to see GRAPHICAL and VISUAL demonstration of B/S fanfics that long ago only existed in fanfiction world. It must be a wonderful feeling for them to see a kind of fanfic AUTHORIZED by Joss Whedon himself. Such authority TRANSFORMS such fanfic into CANON version. As disgusting as it is, we really can't judge those kind of fans.

All we could do is WONDER how they can STOMACH seeing Buffy being "UNDER" Spuke whose character's purpose is TO GET WHAT every "COMPLETE" person has - LOVE, RESPECT & FREEDOM. Spuke having a choice of "asking for a soul" is REALLY an OPPOSITE ATTACK against Angel's curse of having a soul as Angelus' "CAGE & IMPRISONMENT". Spuke got such FREEDOM that was deprived from Angel. And as we said it AGAIN and AGAIN, a soulless Spuke making a "CHOICE" to do "GOOD", EARNED him award, sympathies and forgiveness, without REALLY SUFFERING from all the sins he committed as a soulless demon.

Well, if suffering means "emotional suffering" of being rejected by Buffy is enough punishment for spuke or likewise for "short-term mental torture of having a soul"; then how about centuries of mental torment Angel suffered ALONE and hundred years of mental and physical torment in Hell Dimension, plus emotional torment that he can't HAVE PERFECT HAPPINESS with anyone for fear of unleashing evil to those he loves???!!! Seriously, how can any Spukey fan got the balls to call Spuke as equal or better than Angel?!!

If the amount of sufferings equates "BETTER STORY AND RECOGNITION", how spuke is deserving of AWARDS better than Angel???! (huh, joss /scott allie/christos gage?!!! Mad )

B/S fans always defend Spuke as someone DESERVING of Buffy's love. The guy that Buffy DESERVES, as we can't help but recall Spuke's request to give "THE BITCH WHAT SHE DESERVES".

I know, we are just repeating what we have said before. And I also feel tired doing it. Ranting the same things. It's really insane. Doing the same things expecting different results.

But what is crazier?...is that despite of repeated words and rants, why those "creative" writers CAN NOT SEE, what we see? Why Joss and the rest of B/S fans still prefer B/S ????!!!!

Sometimes, I also question myself if I were in the wrong side?

But then seeing words such as these;

Quote:
Because these writers really don't know how to empower Buffy by Buffy herself, the failures continue and "attacking Spike" is both exhausting and note even the point for failing the story that hasn't been told to completion, in favor of this monstrous effort to breathe life into paper dolls, bearing the burden of plot and our entertainment,, which will never be defined as "epic" no matter how much blood is splashed, eyes oogle, or heads roll, tossed into some battle scene, dragging Fonzie and the shark with them.


It's comforting to see, that even if we use different words/ phrases / statements for different reasons, we share similar sentiments. Of course, I'm not disregarding a possibility that a B/S fan would also have the same sentiments as ours, but so far, I haven't seen one. They enjoy whatever stories they are told, as long as Buffy and Spuke are "together".

And such sentiments is the most pathetic thing to happen for us Bangel fans, If and IF in the future, these comics suddenly decide TO FLIP things around towards our favor, bringing back BAngel together, in a condition that we HAVE TO ACCEPT that Buffy/Spuke had a "healthy" relationship but thought that they couldn't be together because Spuke suddenly realized that "he is not deserving of Buffy's love" or that "she deserves someone better other than him" or with every reasons why Angel gave up Buffy before.

Like I said, it'll be horrible to see BAngel together AFTER Joss granted what every B/S fans wanted to see and that is to make B/S love story as "pure" as Bangel.

That's why for me, THE ENDGAME in comics would be just BULLSHIT after B/S lovefest. I mean, what could be better than WORST? Would that be "less" worst and that means it is just "WORSE"??!!! Rolling Eyes Regardless of superlatives, it never erases the SIMPLE FACT, that worse came from BAD. So, Bangel story, AFTER B/S lovefest, WILL NOT BE AS GOOD AS IT USED TO BE.

Unless, the writers make a BOLD statement of Buffy MAKING HER OWN DECISION to dump Spuke. Which such case, as WE ALREADY HAVE DISCUSSED BEFORE, would be catastrophic for the writers. These writers are not that strong to face wrath from a fanbase that earned its reputation as notorious and savage. So such concept is already scratched even before it materialize.

Then of course the "dream/nightmare" storyline, that many speculated before. But then again, "dream sequence" to FIX things is always meant that "the whole story is bad we wished it's just a bad dream."

Yeah....I'm just repeating myself.

So I end my repetitious rants now.

P.S.

As to Ducks, yeah, I read her post before that she used "ducks" because she heard Spuke speaking the word and that she was a Spuke fan and enjoyed watching him.

I used to enjoy Spuke too, back in the days I was not yet into ship war. His failures was humorous due to the fact that we always laugh at failures of people who has bad intention against someone. And Spuke was not even a "good" bad guy on a scale of being "THE BIG BAD". And that's probably why the audience kinda connected with him, because his lack of badness as a SERIOUS VILLAIN made him somehow a "likeable character" that any moment can be transformed into "one of the good guys". Pretty much the way Cordelia was with the Scoobies around BtVS S1. Cordelia's presentation as "Queen B" earned her annoyance and hate, but her mistakes and failures made her sympathetic that viewers suddenly realize that Cordelia was not a bad person and somehow still redeemable.

Still, Cordy is human. She has a soul and always redeemable....

.Spuke was a soulless demon. Giving a soulless demon a soul so he could show the heroine what he is capable of HAVING only makes Spuke a POSSESSIVE person. Highly in contrast with Angel's, as his soul was given up during the happiest moment of his entire existence and he gave up his humanity to give the woman he loves time to live her life.

I don't still know why others don't see who among these two is willing to give more than what he could receive.

And of course Buffy.....despite of my ship preference, I am sad to see that her choice in life is limited to being a "vampire slayer" and a "vampire lover".

Whenever I read comments and feedbacks that they love Buffy, I sometimes wonder if they really love her for who she is or they only love her for who she is with?

I used to love her....but her "RUINITION", makes me not care about her. And it's sad for me to say it. Because I am beginning to feel the same for my Angel as this stupid comics continue to RUIN him.

So again, sybil, thanks for everything. Till next time

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sybil
Oracle


Joined: 13 Dec 2010
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That is the nature of fandom and why “soap opera” is created to encourage viewer participation with these fictional characters. The thing is, I do feel that the writing for Buffy, for example, was revolutionary in the idea her choice regarding sexual partners was showing that females had a right to make such decisions for their own reasons that has always and only been afforded men in ‘sewing their wild oats.” That is to include pure animal pleasure aka “mutual masturbation.” Buffy mostly cared about her partners and her psychoses makes Spike the perfect MATCH, don’t you know? HA!

Actually “take on dangerous issues” would have been GREAT! If I actually SAW the VICTIM do more than flinch and then cuddle with her rapist, with no SHOW of her “providing her own power to herself!” It may be tough for a slayer to be “bested” because she is so depressed she can’t feel a thing and is angry she is dragged back into the same hell she thought she had given her all to save.

Imagine how EVERY female in many countries has to actually CONSIDER “rape does happen” and there is ZERO you can do about it, as the CULTURE will victimize YOU!

How is it to think that males of her own species are such deranged predators! Not to mention all the useless “band aids” that shape choices, e.g. all matters of HER DUTY to controlling her own hymen according to HIS rules—and even in marriage “rape happens,” let alone disease, pregnancy and actual death; clothes, time of day to have to go indoors, never be alone, always expect a date or a drink at the bar can turn out bad, etc etc, etc. and all for what COULD HAPPEN and DOES to one out of three in the U.S. Worse in other places.

But, in a nod to “order,” which is Angel’s wheel house, he did marry Buffy prior “consummating the marriage” in the old ways of his people in a form that specifically is how handfasting is done: to join the whole of his people to her forever; and he did so with the elements all present of the Goddess, as witness and blessing (also the “third party” of a marriage joining body and soul of two persons forever, as in any church—nature IS the pagan church; and this all is in symbols, of “three” that makes the Cladaugh so special. There is also the nod to the Goddess in triple aspect, and the idea of god, woman and man, forming “family.”

Also, that is why Angel wore his ring on the middle finger. And today from that: Father, Son, Holy Ghost, but also : Father, Mother (index finger—where Buffy should have put her ring, but she is American and ‘that works’ to bind 2 peoples and two persons, in 2 places and in different times, as “one” for all time) . The thumb is the child, meant to become a separate being and make her own family. (Matriarchy…remember (?) in the old times/ Patriarchy in Catholicism. It all works so beautifully to me!). That David’s beautiful hands naturally fall with his index and middle finger extended in sign of blessing (from catching a football with great expertise, as his first career wish) never stops grabbing my full attention. It happened even in the scene of consummating their marriage. Lovely. Just lovely).

And BTW, “man and woman” is not what I think is “family,” which to me has any and all and any how many in a public declaration to form it. That’s it.

Believe me, it is not surprising that Cangel or Faith was meaningful, when they saw Angel and Buffy say “working on forgetting” and “That’s it.” Just as Greenwalt dreamed up a lot about Angel and Buffy, he was enamoured with trying to create the same “epic” romance with Cordy, as she changed dramatically, and was even made “boogity” to better fit in this surreal and OPERATIC kind of story telling that better fit Angel’s story. After all, he has been around for centuries and “seen it” is a great problem for Angel to make “head way” in his own life.

I always thought Charisma had great comedic gifts and wished she would stop trying to be such a beauty and dramatist. I think “Modern Family” reflects such a vehicle she would thrive in.

Anyway, all these Buffy alums going to Angel, while doing this endless work to “separate the shows” for Angel to stand on his own two feet is exactly why such emotional bonds that had been forged to those fans who watched Buffy also added to the drama of a show ever on the verge of cancellation and unable to even keep a show runner for some stable “vision” of HOW, let alone where Angel’s story was to go.

Especially because the fandom itself had sorely divided into shipper wars (and Bangel “was still waiting.” ) The on line world made “instant polling” a reality and that means “advertisers” to keep a show on the air for two shows that were NOT mainstream on two networks CW many could not even get like UPN or didn’t even watch: Football is god here and “my shows” were endlessly pre-empted and aired at 1 a.m. or anywhere some infomercial hand not bought. Not to mention, twitter, et al didn’t even exist. Forums like this did to even find the shows.

Jeez I feel like I am describing the cretaceous life at “eye level” to a modern person. Maybe that is why waiting 20 years for “my story” makes me feel so old, and, seriously, shouldn’t Buffy, if not Angel, wonder when they are going to “get on down the road” with their own lives when all their choices keep on NOT working? Ha ha!


I have to (agree) and laugh in your making rants against Joss. After all, Ducks changed her name to ANTI-JOSS! Hee hee. So you are hardly alone. And that goes for many of the BFN’s of the best fan fiction ever written. Believe me, even professional writers dabble and/or became professional writings in the practice of making that good fan fiction.

I know this “anti-joss” makes Cheryl roll her eyes, as she adores Joss, and she is right to, in that Joss is gifted beyond measure—well some measure that work in “billions of dollars.” But he also really did make writers “rock stars”—I know I pay attention now, too. I like the man’s politics, but I HATE that he insists he can juggle three shows (plus be a “fix doctor” on other projects) and HE simply CANNOT. He BARELY can keep two shows on the rails, IMO, especially within the reality “stories” are not sold, but each year of production is pitched—it’s why so many shows “blow out the middle” and lose coherence under their own, bloated weight, let alone the other reality of “real people” having careers and lives, they have to guide, as well.

I know that many people enjoyed BTVS and ATS in “what you see is what you get” and any other “deep, significant or hidden meaning” was of no interest or not even observable to them. I also think that is the strength of the writing to entertain and engage so many POVs and even peoples from all over the world!

If ATS is seen in isolation from BTVS, you root for those people on the show. It is probably common in fan fiction for “crossovers” of shows that may never be put together. They have quite a life—each show maintaining it’s own tone in the interaction of characters to provide the “reality” necessary to make that mixing both interesting and seem real. It takes quite the skill to do it, I imagine. And, for many, BTVS is a ‘kid’s show (being set in high school and the protagonist in the age of great self involvement vs. Angel who has the entire mythos of vampires behind him, not to mention the writing leaving half of what he says completely mysterious, unfinished, or open to many interpretations—which itself is part of “erotic, vampire romance.” )

And, it is true, Greenwalt had a lot to do with the execution of Buffy/Angel and trying to make “lightening strike twice” simply can’t work in that Angel has a history—and wasn’t that the curiosity that barely was scratched, even on his own show, and when he was always, always under some drug, mystical whatever—that even Cordelia said there was no getting over Buffy for Angel, even while making fun of it with Wes.

Not to mention, even Cordy fans noticed she really changed in her very “purpose” and that changed her character and many hated that, as she was “turned evil” as is usual in the Joss verse and even is tiresome when “possession” is the usual story, more than the “great reveal” we (humans) all can be quite dangerous and depressing. But that is simply “no surprise” IMO. How people “recover” tends to be “swept under the rug” and worse IGNORED. (Except Xander who could never stop riding Angel, as he crushed on Buffy for himself and I am sure Joss thought B/X was the ship that would “stand the test of time” showing HER humanity, or something, with Angel a bad boy “herald” to be killed off in the same episode. Well, that didn’t happen and aren’t we happy!

Cangel simply couldn’t be Buffy and Angel because “real Cordy”—not the Cordelia who is just “weird” to me, It is ompletely pathetic to me, c in this “forcing the issue” of some “grand hidden fated bonding “ of “krumption” to be “sold” as “the epic romance of the ages, “ let alone “get me there” in the horrific, nonsensical logic in the writing of“Birthday”. Even “Waiting in the Wings” eluded most people in Angel working over Cordy as a result of someone ELSE’s obsession. Ha! And JOSS wrote that awfulness to have * Fred * dance ballet; PAINFULLY AWWWFUL, trust me—even if the woman can act! I hope Joss does a ballet with someone who actually has a technique and doesn’t just throw their legs around their ears and stab the floor because they can’t get “en pointe’ on one foot; and I am looking at his darling from Firefly for that comment. Yes, I saw that length of arm waving, sliding all over the floor she called dancing. I am glad she does class, but she is an actress now; and dancing ballet requires EVERYDAY attention to do it. It is a performance art, not just “emoting” or folk dance or “tricks.”

I think that Spike’s killing of Collin, a child turned vampire and favorite of the Master, was pretty “vampire” like, or bad ass or shocking. However, “not a real bad ass” made “Seeing Red” so shocking. And! It is true, that Angelus is a Supreme Bad Ass and people LOVE THAT GUY! Ha!

And that really “does count,” doesn’t it? SATISFACTION for having devoted attention, time and care into a piece of fiction. That pretty much sums it up that there are fans who are simply not “getting it.” (And yes, neither satisfaction or understanding WHY NOT!

They have the right to vote with their feet and their silence after “upset” falls on deaf ears. The on going story is a different story, not just because of shipping, it is TRULY a different story because OUR story NEVER GOT TOLD TO ITS CONCLUSION.

If Joss really believes it has been told, he did his best to make Buffy SEEM powerful. But the comics repeat THE PROBLEM. It’s all about Spike. Let’s empower Spike, Let Buffy’s loins know furniture busting sex and call that as GRAND, as B/A iterally shaking the world to pieces! Ha! Hee hee.

Women, IN PARTICULAR, are told to “hold onto their faith” and “let prayer heal” and all matter of YOU do the work of forgiving EVIL, because, after all, YOU are a sinner TOO! And for someone who is walking around “clueless” or even “doing it again” NO! I will never believe this is the path. This is submission to acceptance to what has happened to you. And doesn’t TEACH anything other than to “dance all around, waiting for pain to stop.”

NO ONE—nutty Noxon OR ALL THESE MEN have ever faced the REAL issue of “forgiveness” after rape, or any grievous injustice regarding one’s autonomy and self- empowerment and real healing with REAL freedom in choice, IMO. And that is “female empowerment” in a nutshell, isn’t it?

And, for any bangel who noticed, Angel in that finale of season seven: he did not turn his back THIS time when he left her. THAT is proof the STORY IS NOT DONE!

After all, he planned to die at her side in order to help her, save his son Connor and use the ‘loop hole’ of his own death to prevent him from “taking over” W&H as CEO. Kindy thinky, for what many thought was a terrible episode (Home; the title I adored, as Buffy IS home to Angel).

So! “deserving Buffy’s love.” He can have it—Xander and Willow do, so do many of the slayers, even Riley and Sam now, but Buffy and Angel deserve each other, to have and to hold forever in “happily ever” We know all about the ‘after’ that makes their “deserving” true.

The big problem about “canon” in ‘COMICS’ IS THAT ANGEL IS UNFORGIVEABLE according to many fans and they feel repelled by Buffy loving this man, who tortured her for a year and she couldn’t even look at. Well, neither can we, as Buffy would have know INSTANTLY that Angel was behind the mask (knowing him to be there in WHATEVER form: she SHOWED this connection and we believe Angel found his way out of hell “seeing her” though he was blind), and NONE OF this stuff could have ever happened, ANYWAY!

So on that happy note: Spuffy and BANGEL can agree! Ha!

I see no reason for her to be sleeping with Spike OR ANY VAMPIRE anymore. I mean, SERIOUSLY? THAT shows she can’t learn, either and “story wise” should be to actually move the story FORWARD, for crying out loud.

I gotta run and I have enjoyed speaking with you, ‘elle more than the topic that upsets us both still. So! I have to take your lead and bead on why these writers do what they do because it completely escapes me. I can’t keep on being Gob smacked by the terrible that is acceptable nowadays that makes characters interchangeable.
Hugs
sybil
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