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Buffy Season 3: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is also my favorite episode of season 3 so I enjoyed reading your thoughts a lot Grace!

I had no idea about the differences from the initial script. I definitely prefer what we got in the episode.

I think they their argument works well and it's so satisfying to see them talk it out and be mature. Also, the hand and forehead kisses are some of my favorite bangel moments on the show and Angel at his most affectionate, I love it so much!!!
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 11:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. Overall thoughts on this episode?

I also very much love this episode. It's definitely up there for me. I love love love the idea that Buffy does not need a man to help her and she is the one saving Angel most of the time. But honestly, its kinda sweet to finally get Angel be able to do something for Buffy. To go and fight the demon and come and feed her the antidote. To see him care for her and concerned for her. Its extremely endearing and to me it shows that, it doesn't always have to be Buffy taking care of him. They can take care of each other. Have each other's backs. When one falls the other one picks the other up. Smile

Buffy looks BEAUTIFUL in the scene where she goes to Angel's mansion to talk. Her outfit is so great. And did she like skip class to go see Angel? I feel like it's mid day and she's like "I can read minds" and then she rushes over to Angel's to try and read his mind and he seems to be asleep so I think its pretty early. Anyway I like this tidbit that it's the first thing she thought about.

Buffy's Insecurities

Sometimes Buffy is so me its almost painful to watch. This episode is one of those times. I think I have grown up alot and I've grown into my own skin and I'm alot better now than I was in my youth but I was very insecure and sometimes it played out just like this. When I loved or cared about someone I would analyze it to death because I was so afraid they didn't love me. And its not logical. Angel clearly loves Buffy. We can all see it. Buffy clearly knows it but that self-doubt creeps into your head and it sets up camp and it just blows things out of proportion. So, I understand that it seems almost rude for Buffy to presume that Angel would want to be (if even just physically) with Faith considering she is a murderer. But I understand that sometimes these feelings are less logical and so much more emotional. I am glad that Buffy did the smart thing and went to talk to him, instead of letting it simmer. I think they resolved so much in this episode.

The final scene:

I will say that what I didn't like about this episode was the final scene. There were some things I liked so I will say what those are first: I like that Buffy doesn't go and start beating the crap out of Jonathan or try to restrain him but tries to reason with him. I like that she seems to care and empathizes with him. What I don't like is what she tells him. Buffy isn't a trained professional so I give her a pass, she is just trying to do the right thing but -- when someone is depressed such as Jonathan is communicating in this situation, its not a great thing to say "Every single person down there is ignoring your pain because they're too busy with their own." The whole - other people's lives suck argument too is usually lost on people who are feeling down on themselves. But AGAIN, she is not a trained mental health professional so I give her a pass. Just - isn't the best way to handle the situation in my opinion.

2. Anything else you want to talk to yourself about?

See me talking to myself above. Wink

But also - can you all believe that on live run this episode was pulled so that if you saw s3 live you didn't see this episode until after the s3 finale? From buffy.wikia:

Quote:
This episode's subject matter, in conjunction with the mass shooting at Columbine High School (which occurred a week before the intended airdate for this episode), led the WB to postpone this episode's broadcast. The episode finally aired September 21, 1999, two months after the Season Three finale (which was also delayed, as the final scene includes the destruction of Sunnydale High). Due to the long delay, "Earshot" was aired in other countries before it was shown in the United States. Sarah Michelle Gellar lobbied hard for this episode (which she considers one of her favorite Buffy episodes) to be released on schedule. She thought it was great and would help those affected by the Columbine tragedy.


If you had been watching live - you would never have seen this progression of Buffy and Angel's relationship which was very significant. But also, I completely understand the need to pull this episode due to the shootings.

3. Favorite lines/scenes?

Quote:
ANGEL Hey, I won't let anything happen to you if I can help it. No matter what, I'll always be with you. Hey, I'll love you even if you're covered with slime.


(Even if Angel is a liar liar pants on fire)

Quote:
OZ (thought) I am my thoughts. If they exist in her, Buffy contains everything that is me and she becomes me. I cease to exist.
OZ (V.O.) No one else exists either. Buffy is all of us. We think. Therefore, she is.


Because Oz is just always so insightful.

And I mean obviously ---

Quote:
ANGEL I mean, there's no comparison. In two-hundred-forty-three years, I've loved exactly one person.


This quote means the world to me. It really does. In all of his time he has only loved Buffy. That is so special and meaningful and still it carries so much weight.

Script Changes

I feel like Buffy comes across a little nicer in the clear the air scene with her at least taking notice of the fact that this was hard on Angel by putting her head on his shoulder and saying Thank you. Wish they would've left that there.

The lips v. forehead kiss: where did I read something recently about how forehead kisses mean deep affection or caring something like that. I can't remember. Anyway, I tried to find it but I can't. It was probably some silly magazine article. Either way I'm glad we got a forehead kiss.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 1:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@dcai I get what you're saying about the final scene and I've seen so many people criticize it for the exact same reason but I think we have to remember that Buffy has no idea that Jonathan went there to kill himself. She thinks he wants to shoot people. So I understand her being a bit less empathetic than she should have been towards a suicidal or even just normally depressed person.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

True Mylie- it’s more bejng annoyed af the writing than at Buffy. And your right she thinks he is going to mass murder not kill himself. It just hits an uncomfortable nerve for me.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 5:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mylie wrote:
Also, the hand and forehead kisses are some of my favorite bangel moments on the show and Angel at his most affectionate, I love it so much!!!


I just checked and the hand kiss was not scripted either. So that's likely DB / the director's choice, too. Smile

dcai0830 wrote:
But also - can you all believe that on live run this episode was pulled so that if you saw s3 live you didn't see this episode until after the s3 finale?


Just in case it's interesting to you, Mark Field says: "When I look at it today in context, it seems to me that Earshot contains important elements leading to the season finale. The empathy we see Buffy develop (see below), in particular, strikes me as crucial for understanding both the behavior of her fellow students in The Prom and her own actions in Graduation Day. That said, those of us watching it live must have filled in those blanks because I don't recall thinking that something important had been left out. That's a sign that the story arc was strong enough to carry the conclusion."

Sadly, Buffy and Angel's relationship was so confusing and on-off during Season 3 that it probably didn't seem weird to a lot of people for them to suddenly be back on again after taking a break.

Also, I understand what you are saying about Buffy’s insecurity, dcai0830. I think part of my dislike is colored by the fact that Buffy has deeper issues that could have been used instead. Enemies obviously brought up the bad feelings from the second half of Season 2, but they glossed over that in Earshot to go heavy on the Faith thing. I would have much preferred the conversation in Earshot to have focused on what Angelus said in Innocence after they slept together. If he can summon up Angelus so easily, then on some level were those really his thoughts? I can headcanon that that is part of the source of Buffy’s insecurity and that she just couldn't bring herself to go there, but I would have preferred it to be explicitly mentioned. This might be asking for a Marti Noxon conversation in a Jane Espenson episode, though. Wink Or, probably more accurately, this season was about Faith/your dark side, so they wanted to keep bonging that gong, even if to me it would have worked better to continue the focus on the Angel/Angelus echo of that theme.

I also would have loved to see Buffy’s "killing" of Angel addressed as a possible source of Buffy's insecurity. The idea that I know I would have had in her place that Angel must on some level secretly resent her for sending him to hell to be tortured for 100 years. I really wanted that conversation!

dcai0830 wrote:
This quote means the world to me. It really does. In all of his time he has only loved Buffy. That is so special and meaningful and still it carries so much weight.


OK, this is part of the reason I do not like Spike's speech in Touched. I always get in trouble when I bring that up, but I feel like maybe I'm OK to do that here? Like, having a *second* vampire tell you that in his whole long life you're "the one" is just *eye roll*. And then he uses the same phrase that Riley does with the "hell of a woman" thing. I understand why people like the speech -- it's better written than just about any other romantic speech in the show and the sentiment is quite nice, of course -- but it treads so much on previous ground that it annoys me. (I know there's even a Spuffy shipper who agrees the "hell of a woman" callback is clunky!)

dcai0830 wrote:
The lips v. forehead kiss: where did I read something recently about how forehead kisses mean deep affection or caring something like that. I can't remember. Anyway, I tried to find it but I can't. It was probably some silly magazine article. Either way I'm glad we got a forehead kiss.


It was in this Tumblr post. I remember reading it too! Smile
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
True Mylie- it’s more bejng annoyed af the writing than at Buffy. And your right she thinks he is going to mass murder not kill himself. It just hits an uncomfortable nerve for me.


Yes, I get that. It's uncomfortable when looking back at the content they are dealing with here. And it certainly feels weird coming from a character like Buffy who is normally full of empathy (except maybe in Beauty and the Beasts) and who later on also suffers from depression and suicidal thoughts.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 8:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:
Mylie wrote:
Also, the hand and forehead kisses are some of my favorite bangel moments on the show and Angel at his most affectionate, I love it so much!!!


I just checked and the hand kiss was not scripted either. So that's likely DB / the director's choice, too. Smile

dcai0830 wrote:
But also - can you all believe that on live run this episode was pulled so that if you saw s3 live you didn't see this episode until after the s3 finale?


Just in case it's interesting to you, Mark Field says: "When I look at it today in context, it seems to me that Earshot contains important elements leading to the season finale. The empathy we see Buffy develop (see below), in particular, strikes me as crucial for understanding both the behavior of her fellow students in The Prom and her own actions in Graduation Day. That said, those of us watching it live must have filled in those blanks because I don't recall thinking that something important had been left out. That's a sign that the story arc was strong enough to carry the conclusion."

Sadly, Buffy and Angel's relationship was so confusing and on-off during Season 3 that it probably didn't seem weird to a lot of people for them to suddenly be back on again after taking a break.

Also, I understand what you are saying about Buffy’s insecurity, dcai0830. I think part of my dislike is colored by the fact that Buffy has deeper issues that could have been used instead. Enemies obviously brought up the bad feelings from the second half of Season 2, but they glossed over that in Earshot to go heavy on the Faith thing. I would have much preferred the conversation in Earshot to have focused on what Angelus said in Innocence after they slept together. If he can summon up Angelus so easily, then on some level were those really his thoughts? I can headcanon that that is part of the source of Buffy’s insecurity and that she just couldn't bring herself to go there, but I would have preferred it to be explicitly mentioned. This might be asking for a Marti Noxon conversation in a Jane Espenson episode, though. Wink Or, probably more accurately, this season was about Faith/your dark side, so they wanted to keep bonging that gong, even if to me it would have worked better to continue the focus on the Angel/Angelus echo of that theme.

I also would have loved to see Buffy’s "killing" of Angel addressed as a possible source of Buffy's insecurity. The idea that I know I would have had in her place that Angel must on some level secretly resent her for sending him to hell to be tortured for 100 years. I really wanted that conversation!

dcai0830 wrote:
This quote means the world to me. It really does. In all of his time he has only loved Buffy. That is so special and meaningful and still it carries so much weight.


OK, this is part of the reason I do not like Spike's speech in Touched. I always get in trouble when I bring that up, but I feel like maybe I'm OK to do that here? Like, having a *second* vampire tell you that in his whole long life you're "the one" is just *eye roll*. And then he uses the same phrase that Riley does with the "hell of a woman" thing. I understand why people like the speech -- it's better written than just about any other romantic speech in the show and the sentiment is quite nice, of course -- but it treads so much on previous ground that it annoys me. (I know there's even a Spuffy shipper who agrees the "hell of a woman" callback is clunky!)

dcai0830 wrote:
The lips v. forehead kiss: where did I read something recently about how forehead kisses mean deep affection or caring something like that. I can't remember. Anyway, I tried to find it but I can't. It was probably some silly magazine article. Either way I'm glad we got a forehead kiss.


It was in this Tumblr post. I remember reading it too! Smile


Good point about how the conversation would have been better if they had adressed the stuff Angelus said etc.

I dislike the Touched speech but for a different reason. I'm not a fan of Spike's obsession with Buffy being the slayer. I feel like that's how he sees her first and that speech feels very untrue to me. I also find it very cliched and I much prefer simple demonstrations of love. I put more stock in silence (what is unsaid or difficultly expressed) than words (which is ironic given my love of dialogue and theater). The speech feels too rehearsed and theatrical for my taste and I cringe whenever I see (or even read) it. But this is a problem I have with James Marsters's acting in general.

I think this is why I appreciate Angel's declaration in Surprise and this one here a lot more. It feels honest, it's said simply and you can tell that he doesn't need pretty words to express something that is clearly apparent to the both of them.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Those are all good reasons to dislike the Touched speech, too. Wink

I definitely agree that it doesn't ring true. The fact that he's using sentiments that have already been expressed by other Buffy love interests just makes it feel more hollow to me. I'll be interested to see how I feel after rewatching Season 7, but it just doesn't seem like he makes enough progress during the season to be able to express this and mean it.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I always tell people I love the Touched speech and they get so excited like "great come and ship Spuffy" - but no. The speech is good but it isn't deserved from Spike. Spike, the demon really hasn't seen much of Buffy's best. Maybe you could argue Buffy Season 5, her sacrificing herself but Buffy's best her strongest moments were s2-3. He wasn't around for that he ran off in s2 with Dru and in s3 he came in for some drunken banter. s4 he wasn't really paying attention to her strength or her courage he was trying to help her enemy destroy her and failing at it.

So if we take s5-7 - which is what Spike was really there for its not really Buffy's best times. She is pretty down in the dumps, doubting herself and some would argue she was giving up in the Gift (maybe not... I don't know how to feel about that ...). Maybe this is all based on her actions in s7. I still don't see a whole heck of alot of kidness (also curious if my opinions will change on this re-watch...)

The speech is good because it is true in the grand scheme of things. Buffy has good and bad. Throughout the series she shows kindness and strength. The speech should've been delivered by Willow or Xander or Giles someone who had been with her for the entire journey. It's unfortunate that the speech was given by Spike. I don't think the lines he delivers fit with the relationship they had in s6, or his resentment of how she treated his demon in s7, even if in s7 she does give him support and shows that she believes in him its not really enough to make the speech feel deserved.

The speech also wouldn't have worked for Angel though because he has been gone for so long. It would have to be reworked. I am resentful that the way the speech is written is so much better than what Angel got in helpless though because I think from a writing perspective its a better speech. Especially because the aim of the speech is Buffy and not Angel where as in helpless Angel tells her how he loved her, here Spike is saying its not about how he loves her but about all of her great qualities. Just doesn't fit the Spike and Buffy relationship at that point.

I can totally see Comic!Spike giving this speech. He really has seen her kindness and her strength, he has been with her for years (soulled spike has the memories of the demon but he has only been around Buffy for less than a year and half of that time he was out of his mind).
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@dcai0830

You're a lot better than I am. I can't even concede that the speech is good. I really really hate it. Spike being the one who says is a factor but it's not even the most important one for me. I truly believe that it's cliched and incredibly fake and cheesy.

So I wouldn't have wanted it for Angel. I would not have enjoyed it at all and I also think it wouldn't have worked with Angel's personality. So the spuffies can keep their speech. I'm not jealous one bit.

I agree that it fits comics Spike though!

oh, last thing... I always laugh at Buffy saying "I don't wanna be the one". I can't help it... I would be as dismissive if someone told me something like that and then run away for my life.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 10:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL - I always laugh whens he says that too Mylie. It's not something you want to hear. I know what they mean but it's funny.

Other evil thoughts I have in s7 include:

I wonder if when Buffy is holding on to Spike's hand at the end she is like "how long do I have to stay here so it isn't rude that I'm leaving him to die?"

Buffy smiling all hopefully at the prospect of a future when her supposed "love" just died for her juxtaposed to her face after Angel died in s2. Like yeah dude... total love of her life huh?

I know these are just MY thoughts that I'm projecting onto Buffy but oh well. Smile
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trust me, I'm also projecting a lot here... I do think there's something to what you've said. And her feelings when it comes to Spike seem to be closer to loyalty and being proud of him than actual love. Or it's another kind of love that I just don't get. That's also very possible.

I feel very childish at times because one of my favorite things about s7 is how Dawn never really forgave Spike for what he did to Buffy. It really broke their relationship. And her threatening to set him on fire always makes me smile!
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Heck yes! And how annoying is it that in the comics Dawn is just like magically cool with Spike again advocating on his behalf!? Grr.
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Mylie
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

That's not surprising though... everyone loves each other in the comics!

Which has never been the case on BtVS in any season ever lol.

When even Angel and Xander can bond, you know this is a brand new buffyverse lol.
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mylie wrote:
oh, last thing... I always laugh at Buffy saying "I don't wanna be the one". I can't help it... I would be as dismissive if someone told me something like that and then run away for my life.

dcai0830 wrote:
LOL - I always laugh whens he says that too Mylie. It's not something you want to hear. I know what they mean but it's funny.


Ha! I have to say I looooove that Buffy's first response in Earshot is to CONFIRM she's the one and in Touched it's to basically DENY she's the one. Makes me happy.

Mylie wrote:
When even Angel and Xander can bond, you know this is a brand new buffyverse lol.


It's all rooftop barbecues all the time in the comics!
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