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Angel Season 1: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 428
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Sat Mar 17, 2018 4:47 pm    Post subject: Angel Season 1: 20th Anniversary Rewatch Thread Reply with quote

Season 1 Rewatch!



CALENDAR
March 20: 1x01 City Of
March 27: 1x02 Lonely Heart
April 3: 1x03 In the Dark
April 10: 1x04 I Fall to Pieces
April 17: 1x05 Rm w/a Vu
April 24: 1x06 Sense & Sensitivity
May 1: 1x07 Bachelor Party
May 22: 1x08 I Will Remember You 
May 29: 1x09 Hero 
June 5: 1x10 Parting Gifts 
June 12: 1x11 Somnambulist 
June 19: 1x12 Expecting 
June 26: 1x13 She 
July 3: 1x14 I've Got You Under My Skin 
July 10: 1x15 The Prodigal 
July 17: 1x16 The Ring 
July 24: 1x17 Eternity 
July 31: 1x18 Five by Five 
August 7: 1x19 Sanctuary 
August 14: 1x20 War Zone 
August 21: 1x21 Blind Date 
August 28: 1x22 To Shanshu in L.A. 

No pressure to post on Tuesdays! Any time in a given week is fine.

Feel free to jump in for just an episode or a few at any time. We encourage any amount of participation! 

PROMO VIDEOS 
Season 1 Fan-Made Trailer 
The WB Promos for Season 1 

TRANSCRIPTS AND SCRIPTS 
BuffyWorld 

REVIEWS AND ANALYSIS 
The Watcher's Diary (taaroko's reviews) 
Noel Murray at the AV Club 
Passion of the Nerd video guide 


Last edited by Grace Newman on Thu May 03, 2018 3:03 am; edited 1 time in total
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 428
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1x01 City Of
Written by Joss Whedon & David Greenwalt
Directed by Joss Whedon
Original air date: October 5, 1999



1. Overall thoughts about this episode? How does it compare to other Angel season openers?
2. What did you think of how Angel's character was (re)introduced to the audience? How about Doyle and Cordelia?
3. Do you like the noir style of Angel? Did you like the contrast with the brightness of Buffy or did you find it too dark?
4. Favorite lines/scenes?
5. Did anything stand out on rewatch?
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
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Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Overall thoughts about this episode? How does it compare to other Angel season openers? City Of is definitely up there for me in terms of AtS season openers. It might be my favorite, though I haven't seen them all enough times to say for sure.

For some reason, my heart absolutely melts when Angel hands Tina the dishtowel to dry her eyes. That moment really stands out for me.

Another little moment I love is when Doyle says, "I'm just the messenger," and Angel responds, "And I'm the message." It's this great little full-circle moment. When Angel showed up in Welcome to the Hellmouth, he was just a messenger, too. He delivered his helpful hints to Buffy and then disappeared. He wasn't jumping into the fray. But now he's got his own messenger in Doyle and he's finding his own mission.

What did you think of how Angel's character was (re)introduced to the audience? How about Doyle and Cordelia? This is such a great episode for Angel. He kicks ass but shows his flaws, too. He cuts himself off from people and he struggles with his "drinking." But he's willing to work through those things to help. He'll even do computer research for this one time! On three computers at the same time!

Cordelia doesn't make a wonderful first impression, at least on me. But the later scenes with her are great, particularly with Russell.

Doyle *also* doesn't make a great first impression with the whole "lazy sow" thing, but on the whole he's very likable. I especially like him ramming into the gate.

Do you like the noir style of Angel? Did you like the contrast with the brightness of Buffy or did you find it too dark? I love it! I think they go a little overboard with trying to be "adult" in some of the clunkier Season 1 standalones, but overall it's a perfect match for Angel the character, and it's part of why the first two seasons are my favorites.

Favorite lines/scenes?

"Let's get to work." (Slightly different, but fun that he uses basically the same line in the first and last episodes. It's obviously a favorite of Joss'!)

"Can you fly?"

Did anything stand out on rewatch? I definitely yelled, "The Dark Avenger!" when Angel popped out those wrist stakes for the first time. Lol.

Every time I rewatch this episode, I'm reminded of how brilliant it was to make the visions painful.

Also, I nodded in agreement when Oliver said, "I like the whole thing." I LIKE EVERYTHING ABOUT ANGEL, TOO!

"There is nobody left that I care about." And yet, that phone call...Poor Angel.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 5:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

City of

1. Overall thoughts about this episode? How does it compare to other Angel season openers?

I have a deep appreciation for "City of" now but on first watch or even second I was a bit iffy on it. I think Judgment, Deep Down are leaps above "City of" so that puts this in the middle of the pile for me. But because I know and love the show now I think it elevates this episode for me.

2. What did you think of how Angel's character was (re)introduced to the audience? How about Doyle and Cordelia?

I love the introduction to Angel. I think they hit it all the right beats. They show him still quiet and broody and socially awkward. (Socially awkward Angel is my favorite)

Everytime I see Cordy for the first I'm like - holy sunless tanner batman! But I like their little exchange. It sets up their dynamic. I don't really like Cordy here but then again I didn't like her on BtVS too much. She sorda is who she is. I like that she's like "you're nobody" and walks away from him. And I like Angel's acknowledgement that Cordy's still herself. Because of course it sets up the arc of "Cordy working on being a better person on AtS."

Doyle is hit or miss for me. Some watches I like him some I don't. He seems a bit too "boys will be boys" for me. When he says lines like "pretty little blonde thing” or “stiffner,” it stricks a nerve for me. But I know he has a good heart so I try to give him the benefit of the doubt. It's always nice to see Doyle and Angel together, I think they have a good chemistry and dynamic from the very first episode.

3. Do you like the noir style of Angel? Did you like the contrast with the brightness of Buffy or did you find it too dark?

I think at first watch I found it a little too dark. Now it feels all together Angel and it feels perfect. It’s hard to explain. I think that it's interesting that s4 of btvs is the brightest season, literally the screen lights up, everything is so incredibly colorful. S1-3 were not like that and s5 isn’t like that either. I think it shows a good contrast between the two shows. The yin and yang.

4. Favorite lines/scenes?

Two scenes stick out to me in "City of" and I find them ICONIC. The first is when you think Angel is drinking away his Buffy woes like a loser and then the people pass behind him, his face turns serious and he LOOKS like Angel (so you know he was putting on an act before) and he turns around and walks like a badass out of the bar and the music plays and your like oh yeah this is gonna be good.

Then of course the second scene "Can you fly?" He makes this look good.

5. Did anything stand out on rewatch?
Angel is so hot this season. Just drool worthy. So that ALWAYS stands out. Smile

Is Angel wearing his Claddagh ring at the bar?? Does anyone have a good screenshot of this?

Hulu's closed captioning says that Doyle says to Angel about leaving Buffy " he can't be anywhere near Miss young puppy thighs without endangering them both. Umm no HULU it's "Puppy eyes" and gross.

Script comparisons and observations:

One interesting thing to note that I had never picked up on is that the original script calls for the "blonde girl" in the bar that's in trouble to resemble Buffy.

Quote:
One of the guys gets behind one of the women (JANICE, who may resemble Buffy) helping her line up a shot.


I'll let you all decide if you think the blonde girl looks like Buffy.

The original script had Angel drunkenly shooting darts and then starting to make some douchy comments about women. So I'm glad they changed that:

Quote:
ANGEL
(continuing; to folks at bar who ignore him)
Yeah, women, they're just…
(loses his train of thought completely)
…what? So round and comfy and then
they say "oh, could you pass me that
fork, honey…? And your heart, too,
come on" and then they -
(POUNDS pretend fork into heart
on the bar over and over)
I'm not bitter.


Script also called for a number of close ups of "drugs and bums" a number of times so I guess that was an aesthetic they were going for that was changed.

Script called for Whistler instead of Doyle in "City of"
Quote:
SPINS AROUND FAST, grabs WHISTLER (youngish, loud dresser, would live at the race track if he could)

ANGEL
(recognizes)
Whistler.


The script varies significantly here. Whistler doesn't do the whole "lets recap Angel's life" bit. There is no "Once upon a time..." but Whistler does point out he is worried that Angel's distance from people will make him revert to his human drinking days. Buffy doesn't come up in the conversation with Whistler.

Again the script is very different so I'm just tryiing to highlight the main differences.

In the script Cordy doesn't say she should be talking to people that are somebody:

Quote:
Course if you were bad you'd say
you were good - and if you were
good you'd also say you're good so…
(takes a step back)
Let's call ya' good. We should grab
a bi - have a drink sometime. Good
to see ya'… it's all… good.


Another line I'm very glad they changed. Tina and Angel in her apartment:

Quote:
TINA
You don't want to…?

ANGEL
I might want to but I'm not going to.
You got enough people taking
advantage right now.


The script calls him for having spoken “perfect” Spanish to a guard at the library. That would’ve been cool to see.

Quote:
GUARD (IN SPANISH, SUB-TITLED)
Hey, what are you doing here?
Angel stops, says in perfect Spanish:
ANGEL (IN SPANISH, SUB-TITLED)
I'm not here…
(turns, holds out envelope)
Which is why you didn't see me.


That’s not that important but I personally would have loved to see Angel speak Spanish Smile

Interesting that the script calls for Russell looking like an atypical vampire.

Quote:
MORPHS into a HORRIBLE VAMPIRE, much more demon-like than your average Joe Vampire.


The scene where Angel finds Tina was supposed to be much more gruesome with blood and even more interestingly Angel was meant to have an almost replace/or a more evident struggle with Tina’s blood.

Quote:
ANGEL - trying hard to get his breath, makes himself walk up to her, makes himself look around this room in hell, makes himself kneel down next to the girl he couldn't save on the floor.
He reaches out, strokes her face… he hangs his head to cry or vomit… he looks back at her and sees the BLOOD ON HIS HANDS NOW.
He stares and stares at it - until he can't stand it anymore and suddenly thrusts one of his hands in his mouth, lapping up the blood ravenously, instinctively - until he utters some deep, inhuman sound and rips his hand out of his mouth.

INT. TINA'S APT. - KITCHEN SINK - DUSK
Angel furiously washing his hands; scrubbing them nearly raw, sickened by what he just did. Behind him on the floor, Tina's body is a silent witness.
TELEPHONE NEAR TINA - As Angel picks it up, his eyes never leaving her.
INSERT HIS (now clean) hand - as it dials 911.


So I think they meant him to struggle more with this. And also, it reminds me of the Orpheus flashback. Again, another thing I’m glad they changed.

Lindsey was not in the original script!

In the original script Angel grieves over Tina at her funeral. He feels extremely guilty and distraught over not saving her and he is kind of dramatic about it burning himself with a crucifix. This is a pointed line:

Quote:
ANGEL
I got involved and I made it worse,
that's what I do.


The Buffy call is not in the original script. In fact, nothing about Buffy is in the original script. It’s rather devoid of any part of her story in Angel’s life. Interesting.
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
Posts: 428
Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 2:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
I have a deep appreciation for "City of" now but on first watch or even second I was a bit iffy on it. I think Judgment, Deep Down are leaps above "City of" so that puts this in the middle of the pile for me. But because I know and love the show now I think it elevates this episode for me.


Deep Down was the one that stopped me from declaring City Of as my definite favorite, but I've only watched it once. I'll have to see on rewatch. Then again, no Buffy in Angel's hallucinations kind of ruins it. Smile

dcai0830 wrote:
Everytime I see Cordy for the first I'm like - holy sunless tanner batman!


Ha, yes. My notes say: "I dislike Cordelia's hair and dress and tan." Ouch. The subsequent scenes are so much better. I think she looks great in Russell's mansion.

Quote:
Is Angel wearing his Claddagh ring at the bar?? Does anyone have a good screenshot of this?


I looked really hard but they just look like silver bands to me. http://atscaps.piwigo.com/picture?/136938/category/97-101_city_of

Thanks for noting all the script changes! I'm glad they toned things down and added in the Buffy references. It would have been weird to have no mentions of Buffy in the pilot, I think.

Apparently, Angel tasting Tina's blood was actually shot, but they cut it:

Quote:
As Minear relates it, there was an intriguing moment written into the script that was actually filmed, but ultimately cut. 'Angel goes in,' he says, 'finds her dead body, cradles her and sees her blood on his hand. He lifts his hand and, I think, he actually puts his finger in his mouth. Originally, that was, for Joss and David, the point of the episode; that this guy is really on the edge. He's struggling. But that moment just didn't work, and we ended up cutting it from the episode. It was dark enough that he didn't save this girl. I don't think you needed him licking her dead body. It was very cool, but that's often what happens. The thing that you thought was the point of the story, ends up excised at the end. You try desperately to save it, but it just isn't right for the show.'


Source
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tim Minear - again showing us how he needs to be restrained.
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Grace Newman
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Joined: 18 Jan 2017
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 3:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Apparently, they all did! It sounds like the network had to rein in Joss and David, and then Joss had to rein in Minear later. Wink
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Grace Newman
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Location: Washington, DC

PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1x02 Lonely Heart
Written by David Fury
Directed by James A. Contner
Original air date: October 12, 1999



1. Overall thoughts on this episode?
2. How do you like the Angel/Doyle/Cordelia team so far?
3. What did you think of the introduction to Kate?
4. Favorite lines/scenes?
5. Anything stand out on rewatch?

I've got song lyrics for this week's AtS episode, too! Touched by VAST is one of the songs used on AtS that stands out the most for me, and I feel like at least some of the lyrics fit B/A well at this point, especially considering "I'll never find someone quite like you again" plays over an image of Kate searching Angel's apartment. (Forget it, Kate! You'll never measure up! Laughing)

Touched
You say that I am too
So much of what you say is true
I'll never find someone quite like you
Again
I'll never find someone quite like you
Like you

The razors and the dying roses plead
I don't leave you alone
The demi-gods and hungry ghosts of God
God knows I'm not at home

I'll never find someone quite like you
Again
I'll never find someone quite like you
Again

I, I looked into your eyes and saw
A world that does not exist
I looked into your eyes and saw
A world I wish I was in

I'll never find someone quite as touched
As you
I'll never love someone quite the way that I
Loved you
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elle2
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Joined: 28 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grace Newman wrote:
Apparently, they all did! It sounds like the network had to rein in Joss and David, and then Joss had to rein in Minear later. Wink


Correct me if i’m wrong but the idea came from Joss and Greenwalt. I dont think Minear had been involved with Angel on its first episode. If i’m not mistaken his name started to appear in episode 5 Sense and Sensibility. So i dont think it’s right to presume that Minear was responsible for that gross idea.

But i agree that joss, greenwalt and minear collectively made Angel. When Minear came in, that’s when joss sidelined himself as mere consultant. As much i have an ongoing dislike for joss nowadays, i like how he worked so well with Greenwalt and Minear in writing stories for Angel, more than the “ON” combo comprising of whedON, espensON and noxON.

Anyways, glad you are making the rewatch for Angel. Sadly I decided not to do the same, nowadays. Probably I will just lurk at some moments and only reacts if I deem it fit to do so. But for now, thanks for making this thread.👍🏽
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Grace Newman
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

elle2 wrote:
Correct me if i’m wrong but the idea came from Joss and Greenwalt. I dont think Minear had been involved with Angel on its first episode. If i’m not mistaken his name started to appear in episode 5 Sense and Sensibility. So i dont think it’s right to presume that Minear was responsible for that gross idea.


Yes, sorry, my comment was confusing. Minear was talking about something that was Joss and David Greenwalt's idea. The network obviously had some issues with some of the early ideas for AtS (like the Corrupt episode where Kate is undercover as a prostitute and becomes a drug addict), so that's what I was referring to with the network asking them to tone things down. And then later, Joss made Minear tone things down, like when he wanted to have Angel rape Darla and then stake her in Reprise.
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elle2
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^ “rape”? Not sure about the term. He wanted Angel to lose it all by using Darla, as we saw on tv, but i am not sure if Minear wanted Angel to “rape” Darla. Though i agree that Minear wanted Angel to stake Darla as they were having sex and make Angel say the line “was it good for you?” to her, but joss interfered, because he wanted Darla to come back.

And joss “restraining” Minear is not really accurate, when you fast forward to Waiting in the Wings episode, where Minear told joss to cut off Wesley’s daydreaming of him and Fred dancing ballet. Joss made that episode mainly for Amy Acker to show off her ballet skills, but due to time limit, Minear suggested to joss to cut it off as that scene would not fit in the episodes’s story. And joss agreed with Minear.

What i mean, joss learned to CONSULT with other people which he did in btvs woth Greenwalt. And brainstorming to people who ACTUALLY CARES for the main characters is the reason why Angel survived being cancelled for four seasons.

That’s how i see it, sorry.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Minear literally said in a podcast that he had written that scene as a rape scene and they had him change it. He used the word rape. Tim Minear is a talented writer but he can take things over the top.
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elle2
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Joined: 28 Aug 2014
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
Minear literally said in a podcast that he had written that scene as a rape scene and they had him change it. He used the word rape. Tim Minear is a talented writer but he can take things over the top.


Sorry...i didnt listen to the podcast you are referring to. What i remember is what he said in Darla documentary in Ats boxset. But in case he used the word rape, i think it was influenced by the “attempted rape” made for spuke by Noxon on btvs S6. As B/S circa S6 is copied from A/D of Season 2. But that is just my theory.

If you are going to say Minear “take things” over the top, then what do you call of Noxon who wrote the attempted rape because she believed that women forcing herself to a man would giver her some sort of “epiphany” only in case of spuke it was “gender-swapped”?!🤔

I am not sure if you have personal dislike of Minear, but for me what he did for Angel was much better than what Joss did ALONE in season 5. I dont know if he flipped over to B/S side, but I give him credit for developing Angel apart from btvs.

Anyway, my point is that angel would not be angel without minear, greenwalt and joss. The charmess is attributable to DB. But the storyline for Angel is much more compelling if joss had some help with people who ACTUALLY CARES ABOUT ANGEL.

That’s my point, sorry again.
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dcai0830
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I love Tim Minear, think he was the best writer we had in AtS.

I think the AR in BtVS was horrendous and over the top, to say the least.

Not going to derail this thread any further.
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elle2
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

dcai0830 wrote:
I love Tim Minear, think he was the best writer we had in AtS.

I think the AR in BtVS was horrendous and over the top, to say the least.

Not going to derail this thread any further.


Sorry if i contributed in derailing this thread. I just reacted on how Minear was supposed to be “restrained” by joss or by the network as if he had some bad ideas for angel.

TBH, Minear’s idea of Angel going dark on S2 is much more interesting and fitting for Angel’s character than Buffy of btvsS6. Angel and Darla had “history” of being DARK, something that Buffy and Spuke did not have prior to S6. Sorry if I derail this thread by saying this, but i just found a B/S perspective as I search earlier about that podcast. That B/S fan felt vindicated to hear Minear idea because it would prove that Angel was an “abuser” which is accused by Bangel fans against Spuke.

But that’s probably for another topic.

Go on with the rewatch. This still remains my fave show, even with issues I have with season 5, so I will always be interested on anyone’s thoughts.

Thank you.
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